interested in all grain... trying to do the math

[rockytop714]

I'm a BIAB brewer who is looking to move up to all grain brewing. my current "set up" is a patio/turkey fryer burner and a 10 gal NB tallboy kettle with a mesh bag and digital probe thermometer. This setup usually suits my needs for volume for the beers that I like to brew and drink, which is typically beers between 1.055 and 1.070 OG. I very rarely use any more than 12-14 pounds of grain. The only time I had a problem was making a double IPA, once, with around 16.5 pounds of malt and 8.5 gallons of water. I had a little bit of spillage on that one.

A must-have, for me, for an all grain system, is going to be a stainless mash tun. I want to be able to directly heat the mash with a burner for stepped mashes and mashout. I've found an 8 gallon mash tun for a very good price, that should work for what I need. If I intend to make anything bigger than 1.075-1.080, I would probably only do a 3 gallon batch.

So that's the mash tun. Where I'm struggling is the HLT. The budget I'm working with for the time being could get me the mash tun and an HLT, but I'll be left heating my sparge water on an electric stove, for now. I would prefer to have a second propane burner but, if I would start heating the sparge water on the stove at the same time I'm heating the strike water with the burner, I could probably hit 170-175 during the mash but then it would be a matter of lugging 6+ gallons of hot water from the kitchen to the garage, which sounds like a pain and possibly pretty dangerous, as well.

I do have a 5 gallon bayou classic stock pot that gets little use since the thin bottom makes it useless as a cooking vessel. Things get scorched way too easily. So I could get another patio burner and weldless fittings to repurpose the 5 gallon pot as a hot liquor tank. That's a second option, but I'm concerned that 5 gal may not be big enough.

NB sells a two 5 gallon cooler all grain system for 5 gallon batches, so I would assume a converted 5 gallon stock pot could serve the same purpose, whether fly sparging (which I'd prefer) or batch sparging, but everything I've read on the forums, here, and elsewhere suggests 0.5 gallons of sparge water per pound of dry grist. So, for a hypothetical brew using 12 lbs of malt, I would need 6 gallons of sparge water... not going to fit in a 5 gallon pot.

I would think that, 1.25-1.5 qts per pound for the mash, for enzymatic purposes makes sense and the sparge should just be enough to rinse the grain and bring you up to preboil volume but I can't think that 6 gallons of sparge water would really be necessary to do that... would it?

I'm sure I'm overthinking this but I just want to make sure that I'm investing my money wisely into equipment that is going to do what I need. So, long story short, I guess the main thing I'm asking is whether the 5 gallon stock pot will cut it for heating sparge water or if I should just go ahead and get a bigger HLT and just heat sparge water on the stove until I can get another burner.

Any thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[acidrain]

Having worked through all methods of direct fired mash, I highly suggest against it. The SS mash tun is expensive, simply does not hold the heat, and direct firing has ruined more than one of my mashes from scorching. I now use a HERMS and SS mash tun, and that works well, but RIMS was also a scorcher anytime the pumps slowed for any reason.
It would have been WAY less expensive to just go with a 10 gallon cooler MT. You can always add HERMS later (also less expensive than RIMS, and works better at maintaining heat IMHO).

If you went with a cooler MT, you would only need a good boil kettle, and then you could do it all on your turkey burner. The 5 gal stock pot would be fine for sparge.

As for volumes, bigger is better... 10 gal instead of 5 gal cooler MT, and a 10 gal boil kettle minimum. Don't forget you need a sight glass a drain valve on that BK.

 

[Komocabo]

Plan to move up to 10 gallon batches. I use kettles for all 3 vessels. It takes about an extra hour to double the beer... chances are you will want to brew larger batches, so might as well buy bigger now as it will save $$ in the long run. My .02

 

[duboman]

If you really want an HLT then you want one that will hold ALL the water for mash and sparge.

With your grain bills that would be a minimum of a 10 gal, preferably 15. Otherwise you're wasting a lot of time and energy filling and heating

I would second a 10 gallon brew kettle being the minimum size too, smaller and boil overs are a big deal

As for the direct fire, if you're doing a lot of step mashes I get it but if most of your beers are single infusion is go with a 10+ gallon cooler MT, it's more economical and easy.


Sent from the Commune

 

[Devin]

BIAB is all grain. Just sayin'.

 

[Cyclman]

I would move to a bigger burner, bigger kettle (15G), a bag from wilserbrewer with the lift pulley, and you're good to go all grain 10G high gravity batches.

 

[billl]

This is kinda a non-answer, but I'd just get whatever tun you like and use your extra pot to heat sparge water. Batch sparge a couple batches and see if you want to invest the extra time in money in a fly sparge setup.

I'd also not bother with the electric stove. Just use your burner. It isn't that hard to move a kettle from the ground to a burner and back.

For volumes, I think you've got a miscalculation. You start with 7ish gallons pre-boil, right? You definitely don't need 6 gallons of sparge to get to that.

 

[acidrain]

For volumes, I think you've got a miscalculation. You start with 7ish gallons pre-boil, right? You definitely don't need 6 gallons of sparge to get to that.

You don't get 6 gallons from a 6 gallon pot... you get more like 4-1/2. Pots are measured filled to the brim.

 

[jtratcliff]

i would move to a bigger burner, bigger kettle (15g), a bag from wilserbrewer with the lift pulley, and you're good to go all grain 10g high gravity batches.

+1

 

[billl]

You don't get 6 gallons from a 6 gallon pot... you get more like 4-1/2. Pots are measured filled to the brim.

For sparge water? You aren't boiling it, so you don't need much headroom.

And really, lots of people mash in a 5 gallon cooler. Ideal? No, but workable for average beers. It's fine to run a few test batches with less than ideal equipment in order to learn what you really want to spend your money on.

 

[rockytop714]

Thank you all for the input. I appreciate the information.

I understand the idea of spending the extra loot, up front, for the extra volume, instead of replacing everything down the road. I, personally, do not see 10 gallon batches in my future, though. I like to jump around too much to have 10 gallons of anything sitting around and my keezer maxes out at 4 kegs (and 4 is a very tight squeeze). so I typically try to have three different beers on tap and would rather not have kegs and keezer space tied up with 10 gallons of the same beer.

I suppose a 10 gallon mash tun would give me the flexibility of doing higher gravity beers at 5 gallons or 10 gallons of lower gravity beer, if I would choose. Honestly, the price difference between the 8 and 10 gallon tun is only $15... so it might be a smart move to get the bigger one.

my issue with cooler mash tuns is how close you almost have to "guess" how hot you need your strike water to be to hit your mash temp, given all the factors that could affect it. If it comes in higher or lower, you then have to mess around adding hot or cool water to get the temp where you want. I suppose that's honing your skill as a brewer to hit your target, but I would prefer to take the guess work out of it and be able to dough in at a lower temp and bring the mash up to your target temperature.

@acid rain, I would love to move up to a HERMS system, at some point but, for the time being, it's not something I can do with the budget I'm working with. I upgrade one piece at a time, a la Johnny Cash. So, though I see HERMS in my (possibly distant) future, I need to start with the vessel, first. haha...

as far as kettles go, the 10 gallon kettle I use, now, does just fine. I would eventually like to add a valve/screen to it or replace it with one that already has one. For the time being, though, it works just fine. Also, it seems to hold heat fairly well for my BIAB batches but I also understand that the larger volume of water/grist will hold heat better than a smaller amount.

@Billl, yeah, my preboil volume is typically around 6.5-7 gallons. So, everything I've read that suggests 0.5 gallon/pound of grist for sparge water seems like overkill, to me, and that's where I was getting confused. If my preboil volume is, say, 7 gallons and I already have 4 gallons in the mash, I don't see where I'd need 6 gallons of sparge water to hit 7 gallons. I understand that some water might be lost, but I would think that 4-4.5 gallons of sparge water should be plenty. I was just hoping to get the opinion of some all grain folks to help me figure that out. Also, you raise a good point about being able to shuffle vessels around on the same burner for the time being.

speaking of "raising a good point", @ Devin, Cyclman, and jtratcliff, yeah, BIAB really is all grain brewing. It's also cheaper/faster/easier than doing mash and sparge all grain brewing. For whatever reason, though, I have it in my head that mashing/sparging is going to result in better beer. Admittedly, though, I think the beer I make, now, is really good. Easy to be biased, but I'm usually my own worst critic, too. So take that for what it's worth. I have two little girls, 4 and 1, at home. so, in the interest of saving time, maybe it isn't such a bad idea to stick with BIAB for the time being.

At this point, I'm considering getting the 10 gallon mash tun and trying batch sparging with the other, 5 gallon, kettle a few times to see how well it works (it sounds like it should. thanks, Billl), how much I like that method, and whether or not it has a significant impact on the quality of my beer. With the 10 gallon tun, I would also have the option/ability to use it for my BIAB batches, as an upgraded kettle, as well. It just seems like it offers the most flexibility for my needs and, if I would choose to go to a three vessel system for 5 or even 10 gallon batches, I'll be a step ahead, with equipment.

Thanks again for all the advice. you've all been a big help!

 

[billl]

Just a note on water calculations:

Say you mash at 1.5 quarts/lb with no mash out additions. The grain itself will absorb around 0.5 quarts of that, so you'll net about 1qt per lb minus whatever dead space that cannot be drained due to where the outlet is in the tun. For a 12lb grain bill, that means you'll get about 3 gallons of wort and need to sparge with 3.5-4 gallons to get up to 6.5-7. You might want to keep and extra gallon of water hot on the stove in case your calculations are off, but that would be general advice no matter what size system you were working with.

As for cooler mash tuns, you are correct about there being a bit of guess work, but that only really lasts a couple batches. Once you do it a couple times, you'll figure out that your system needs X degrees higher temp for strike water than the calculator says. Obviously a cooler doesn't have versatility of stainless nor the bling factor, but they are a very practical and low cost mashing option.

 

[wilserbrewer]

You can batch sparge with cold water if you choose for simplicity, only downside as I understand it is it will take a little longer to reach boil.

Hitting mash temps In a cooler is not that difficult, just be sure your cooler is preheated well and the strike water is at the proper temp. Cooler MLT is the simplest way to easy mashing IMO.
Cheers!


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/