Infection, High ph, Help. FG way too low

[Slade7077]

My last few AG batches have finished at least 10 points below the estimated final gravity. These were all APAs and IPAs. The have no hop flavor or aroma. The beer has no malt character, and no real flavor. It has more of a rubbing alcohol type burn to it, and a soapy type taste. I don't understand what has caused this. Is it an infection that is causing overattenuation, is it mash ph? somebody help.
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[RM-MN]

The low FG can often be attributed to a low mash temp. Check that your thermometer hasn't drifted off calibration. That low FG will be the cause for lacking malt character and without that malt character you may not perceive the hop flavors either. That can be exacerbated by fermenting too warm because the yeast love the warm temps, produce fusel alcohols then which gives you the rubbing alcohol burn, and work extra at attenuating your beer.

 

[m00ps]

You are going to need to provide A LOT more information (pics would help too) of every step of your process and equipment for that many inquiries into flavor issues. As it is, we can only stab in the dark at what may be the issue(s) (im guessing its more than one)

 

[Slade7077]

I will type out my process when I get back to my computer.

 

[Slade7077]

You are going to need to provide A LOT more information (pics would help too) of every step of your process and equipment for that many inquiries into flavor issues. As it is, we can only stab in the dark at what may be the issue(s) (im guessing its more than one)

I begin with a yeast starter. I always overbuild my starter so I can put about 500 ml in a mason jar for the next batch with that yeast. I wash the mason jars ans spray the inside with star san as well as the lid.

I mill my own grain on a barley crusher. I use the factory setting, a credit card barely slides in.

I use a 48 qt coleman cooler for a mash tun with a braid. Cheap an easy mash tun. I usually hit the mash temp number, definitely within a degree or two. I batch sparge, try to sparge as close to 170 as possible.

Boil as normal, I add my immersion chiller at 15 min, and finish boil. I Now that the weather is cooling off I can get to 64 degrees pretty quick. I rack from my boil kettle with an auto siphon. I chill below pitching temps and then pitch and let fermenter free rise to fermentation temps. I have a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. I usually check SG after 1 week. If wort has reached FG, I dry hop if needed. If its not a beer that calls for dry hopping I usually wait two weeks before checking gravity. Once FG is reached, I cold crash for a day or so, then fine with gelatin for a day, then keg.

 

[pdxal]

How about posting a specific recipe, process, and original/final/estimated gravities? That would help us.

 

[m00ps]

Sounds like your overall brewing process is solid. So yeah, maybe something with your ingredients or water chemistry if the last few have had low efficiency and little flavors (assuming your mill gap is the same across all of them). If its water chemistry, im out

 

[Slade7077]

Sounds like your overall brewing process is solid. So yeah, maybe something with your ingredients or water chemistry if the last few have had low efficiency and little flavors (assuming your mill gap is the same across all of them). If its water chemistry, im out

My efficiency is usually between 70 and 80%

What can I do to guarantee the next batch will be better? Throw away all plastic? Mash at 160? Add lactic acid and gypsum?

Do I need to throw away all my saved yeast and start over?

 

[LostBoyScout]

One simple option would be to hang onto them for a while (either in carboy or in bottle) and see if infection flavors start to take hold, or if it's in the carboy if anything funky develops on the surface to help with the evidence side of things.

10 points is massive, sounds like more than a mash temp issue. I had my winter ale go from 1.085 to 1.010 when i was expecting 1.023 or so, no significant off flavors but wasn't good either. i think the infection is starting to become tasteable now.

 

[Slade7077]

Thanks Lost.

According to the responses on here, sounds like I need to mash higher and make sure my ph is lower.

 

[chickypad]

Can you post a recipe or two with actual measured OG and FG's? Do you know anything about your water and are you doing any water treatments or measuring pH?

 

[Happywanderer]

I agree with some of the other posters..

Post up recipes for last few batches.

ALSO

Do not mash at 160. That isn't the answer. Test your thermometer. Boil water, insert thermometer ... if you are at sea level it should read 212f. Then make an ice slushy. Insert thermometer. It should read darn near 32f. If it doesn't then your thermometer needs replaced.

Avoid using anything you THINK might be contaminated. Autosiphons have lots of places that are hard to clean and could harbor nasties. You can get a 1/2 inch stainless steel siphon for $8. Stainless steel can be boiled. Boiling kills almost everything.

Don't just rely on star san to clean yeast storage jars - boil them for 10 minutes (and the lids). Take out of boiling water and immediately put lid on. Let cool (some leave the water in... this is fine - it just takes a few hours to cool down).

Get a water report. A good one. Ward Labs - $27. It will tell you all you need to know about your water.

Download BruNWater.. It is free. It will tell you A LOT about water chemistry. You input values from your water report (see above) and your grain bill. It then tells you what you need to do to your water. Great tool. Really. GREAT tool.

If you are feeling truly geeky - buy the book Water.http://www.homebrewing.com/books.php (I have Water, Hops, and Yeast....get them all).

DO NOT blindly add brewing salts or acid.

I keep acid in mind and add some Lactic Acid (88%) if BruNWater tells me to. I don't have pH meter yet. If you want to get serious about mash chemistry - get a pH meter ($30-ish).

 

[Slade7077]

I have been checking my ph, it was at 5.5, but I didn't cool wort to room temp. I checked it at mash temp. I just learned it is supposed to be cooled to room temp. I have lactic acid and gypsum. Hadn't added any up to this point but I am going to this weekend. I have downloaded ez water and bru n water. I am going to use the regional additions map the Martin wrote about in the last issue of Zymurgy. I am brewing a session pale. I am going to add .5 ml/g of lactic and 1.2 g per gallon of gypsum to the mash. I calibrated my thermometers but I am going to repeat the process again. The first time it measured boiling water at 214. But measured ice water at 32.5. Might need to break down and buy a thermapen.

 

[Slade7077]

Can I use a ss racking cane in a plastic auto siphon?

 

[Happywanderer]

I have been checking my ph, it was at 5.5, but I didn't cool wort to room temp. I checked it at mash temp. I just learned it is supposed to be cooled to room temp. I have lactic acid and gypsum. Hadn't added any up to this point but I am going to this weekend. I have downloaded ez water and bru n water. I am going to use the regional additions map the Martin wrote about in the last issue of Zymurgy. I am brewing a session pale. I am going to add .5 ml/g of lactic and 1.2 g per gallon of gypsum to the mash. I calibrated my thermometers but I am going to repeat the process again. The first time it measured boiling water at 214. But measured ice water at 32.5. Might need to break down and buy a thermapen.

What is your water report? Post it up so we can take a look at it and help you out better.

Post up the last few recipes so we can help you out better.

 

[Happywanderer]

Can I use a ss racking cane in a plastic auto siphon?

No - you don't need an autosiphon. Siphons are ridiculously easy to use - autosiphons are completely unecessary.

To use a regular siphon. Attach siphon hose to siphon. Fill siphon hose with star san solution (after already soaking it well in star san. Place siphon in wort. Lower end of siphon tubing into small container.

Star san will run out into container. Wort will begin to flow down as well. Once wort has drained for about 1 second or 2 - transfer hose to fermenter or kettle or whatever.

 

[thespiff]

But seriously...what was your grain bill, OG, yeast used, and FG?

 

[Jim311]

A good bleach soak of all of your equipment is in order. Make sure to take apart all of our ball valves as well. Clean any of your kegging equipment if you use it, or even replace the lines. I'd use a bleach solution, 15ML per gallon for a good long soak. But not more than a few hours, it will corrode steel parts. That should take care of any nasties that your stuff might be harboring. Also if you're bottling, take apart your bottling wand, it's got springs and stuff in the end of it that fill with gunk.

 

[Slade7077]

What is your water report? Post it up so we can take a look at it and help you out better.

Post up the last few recipes so we can help you out better.

Magnesium 11 ppm
Chloride 19 ppm
Sulfate Lo
Calcium 37 ppm
Total Hardness 48 ppm
PH 6.7

These are the only results I have

 

[Slade7077]

But seriously...what was your grain bill, OG, yeast used, and FG?

Centennial Pale Ale


9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 90.0 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.0 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
28.64 g Centennial [8.30 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 4 26.9 IBUs
47.74 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [13.10 %] - Boil 12.0 min Hop 5 32.3 IBUs
47.74 g Centennial [8.10 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 6 5.9 IBUs

I heated 4 gallons of strike water (1.6 quarts/lb) to 170F, added to cooler (48 qt Coleman). Waited a min or two for cooler to get warmed up. I added grains and stirred. Temp was 148, which was way too low. I added 2 quarts of boiling water to get mash to 152F. The PH was 5.5 at mash temp, I didnt know I had to cool it to room temp. Mahed for 60 min, iodine test passed. After temp correction my preboil gravity was 1.043. 85% efficiency by my math. Boil was a normal. I chilled to 65F. Transferred to fermenter. I pitched 1.5L of 2L starter of Wyeast 1272. Saved 500ml to use later, I harvest my yeast on the front end by over building starters. OG was 1.048. Fermented in temp controlled freezer at 67F. 5 days later SG was 1.006. Three days after that it was 1.004. I dry hopped it for 3 days, then crash cooled and then fined with gelatin.

No awkward smells. No film, or anything funny in carboy. I am thinking its not an infection. I am leaning to low mash temp, or more likely a high PH.

Does this help you guys help me?

 

[Happywanderer]

Magnesium 11 ppm
Chloride 19 ppm
Sulfate Lo
Calcium 37 ppm
Total Hardness 48 ppm
PH 6.7

These are the only results I have

Spend $42 and order a Ward Labs homebrew test kit. Test your water and get a meaningful water report.

Too little info in that to make any useful comments unfortunately.

What you SHOULD NOT DO is add brewing salts without knowing more about your water.

 

[Happywanderer]

Centennial Pale Ale


9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 90.0 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.0 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
28.64 g Centennial [8.30 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 4 26.9 IBUs
47.74 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [13.10 %] - Boil 12.0 min Hop 5 32.3 IBUs
47.74 g Centennial [8.10 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 6 5.9 IBUs

I heated 4 gallons of strike water (1.6 quarts/lb) to 170F, added to cooler (48 qt Coleman). Waited a min or two for cooler to get warmed up. I added grains and stirred. Temp was 148, which was way too low. I added 2 quarts of boiling water to get mash to 152F. The PH was 5.5 at mash temp, I didnt know I had to cool it to room temp. Mahed for 60 min, iodine test passed. After temp correction my preboil gravity was 1.043. 85% efficiency by my math. Boil was a normal. I chilled to 65F. Transferred to fermenter. I pitched 1.5L of 2L starter of Wyeast 1272. Saved 500ml to use later, I harvest my yeast on the front end by over building starters. OG was 1.048. Fermented in temp controlled freezer at 67F. 5 days later SG was 1.006. Three days after that it was 1.004. I dry hopped it for 3 days, then crash cooled and then fined with gelatin.

No awkward smells. No film, or anything funny in carboy. I am thinking its not an infection. I am leaning to low mash temp, or more likely a high PH.

Does this help you guys help me?

152 isn't a low mash temp. If your thermometer is correct, then the 152 is a very "normal" mash temp. Even 148 isn't TOO low.

WYEAST 1272 has a listed attenuation of 72-76%.

If you are reusing the same yeast for all of your last 4 batches, you could have a yeast that is just super. I had WLP001 that attenuated at 82%!!!

Try cleaning the holy crap out of everything. Sanitize. Use fresh star san. Give it a long soak.

Then brew the same recipe with brand new yeast (don't even bother with a starter if the pouch you buy is "fresh" .. if worried, pitch 2 packs).

If it attenuates the same and tastes the same then you've got 3 options:
1) Water
2) Temp
3) Deep-rooted infection

My guess is that your water is way off since you said you calibrated your thermometers. Water can have an effect on hop/malt profile of finished beer.

Poor water for the style coupled with super-high attenuating yeast can lead to funky flavors.

How long do you boil again? A full 60 minutes?

Have you checked your temp controller probe for accuracy in your ferm chamber?

 

[thespiff]

I dunno man, maybe the mash sat at 148 for too long while you were heating more water. I mash my belgian goldens at 149 and consistently hit 1.005 or so FG with WLP570 (intentional, of course), and I also use at least 10% table sugar in those.

I guess it's possible that it's just gone rogue and you need to mash even higher or get new yeast.

 

[dtwhite]

Going from 1.048 to 1.004 with 1272 is highly unlikely without an infection. That's 91% AA compared to the average range in the mid 70s.

If you use a glass fermenter, make sure to sanitize, dry, sanitize before you use it again. If you use a plastic fermenter, I would recommend replacing it. I would also recommend replacing anything else you can't boil that touches post-chilled wort (vinyl tubing, autosiphon, etc).

 

[passedpawn]

Spend $42 and order a Ward Labs homebrew test kit. Test your water and get a meaningful water report.

Too little info in that to make any useful comments unfortunately.

What you SHOULD NOT DO is add brewing salts without knowing more about your water.

OP: Don't bother with the water report or minerals. Your problems are NOT being caused by any of that stuff. While this guy trying to be helpful, it's the wrong direction. You must have wild yeast or something else that is driving the FG down, the alcohol up.

Try changing your fermentor if you can, or anything else that might be harboring microbes. Plenty of people before you have found the problem in the spigot of their bucket or other places.

 

[Moose_MI]

Well I'll stab in the dark along with everyone else....id get a nice fresh pack of s05 for that next pale ale....and I'd wash the heck out of fermenters and hoses and anything else post boil.....and I mean wash the HECK out of it...go ahead and use the full scoop of oxy clean....fill'r up to the top with hot water and let her sit for a day.....

Agree that it's not your water. That's not to say you do not have an opportunity to dial in your ph or minerals but I doubt it's the reason your last 2 batches have failed. Of course for about $5 you can get RO from the store for next batch and eliminate water as being the primary issue.

Ok...there ... I feel better now that I got all that off my chest :rockin:

 

[Slade7077]

Thanks to everyone for all the help/advice. I was about to dump the two kegs that I thought were bad. I poured one last pint to check and it tasted pretty good. So I drank those two kegs. Maybe they just needed some time, idk. Went back to using my dial thermometer, since it's more accurate. I boiled all my hoses, and mixed up new star san. Brewed a Janet's Brown Ale that is oustanding, and a session pale ale that is probably the best beer I have ever made. Should be getting my results back from Ward either tonight or in the morning. I have a Black IPA in the fermenter right now that tastes outstanding. Also have a chinook ipa fermenting that I brewed Sunday. I really appreciate everyone that took the time to respond to my original post. Everything seems to be going fine again in the brewhouse.