In pursuit of sweet low attenuation wort

[Owly055]

My next brew will be mashed specifically to achieve a low fermentability and a lot of residual sweetness.

Almost all discussion of attenuation is focused on achieving higher attenuation. My target in this case is sweetness.

What I don't know is how much perceived "sweetness" I will retain if I mash high, and mash fast.

I do know that conversion happens very rapidly at elevated temps..... just a few minutes can achieve a full conversion.

I do know that the result is lower attenuation and more perceived sweetness, but I do not know how far this can be taken.

Nobody seems to have delved into low attenuation very far, so I'm entering terra incognita..... Or so it would seem. Tomorrow would be my normal brew day, but I'm going to put it off until Sunday AM for various reasons. Chief among them is that I am undecided on what I will use for a mash temp. I'm currently looking at around 160. The conversion should be rapid, but the beta amylase will not contribute significantly. This should give me the low fermentability / attenuation I'm seeking. Palmer's graphs suggest that I'm still mashing low for what I want.... 165 to 168 should give the results I want. High yield and low fermentability.

We live in an era where we have many tools that brews of yore didn't have. I could mash at 165, and if I didn't achieve full conversion, I can just toss in some amylase. If my final gravity is too high and my alcohol too low, nothing prevents me from adding some corn sugar syrup and restarting fermentation..... You can go wrong........but not from lack of tools!

I'd love to hear comments from those who have delved into low attenuation. I love to learn from the experiences and mistakes of others. It saves time, it saves money. My process is still "up in the air". I could do a dozen mashes at ever higher temps, or I could follow follow in someone else's footsteps, and build out from there. My 10 minute mash for example built on the experience of another brewer, and incorporated some of my own ideas.


H.W.

 

[j1n]

I don't like overly sweet beers, But to each his own.

I would also look into low attenuating yeasts.

 

[Owly055]

I don't like overly sweet beers, But to each his own.

I would also look into low attenuating yeasts.

There are other reasons to attempt to achieve max residual sweetness than to create an "overly sweet beer". Sweetness is a tool to offset other flavor elements. In this case sourness. The alternatives are few......... One could add a non-fermentable artificial sweetener like Xilatol, but as we can produce non-fermentable malt based sugars, I would rather try this approach.

I have considered a low attenuating yeast like USA-04, and one or two others of it's ilk, but the LHBS is 100 miles away, and I've decided instead to attack it from the mash side rather than from the yeast side. At least this time.

Crystal malts produce significant unfermentable sugars, but they also create flavor elements I don't want in this beer. This really is an exercise in manipulating the mash to achieve the results I want. I had hoped to elicit some comments and suggestions from people who had tried something similar.

One concern is that some unfermentable sugars have little perceived sweetness, which leaves me with the concern of ending up with a very sugary beer that though it's heavy in sugars, lacks the sweetness we normally associate with sugar.

I guess I'm on my own here.......... It's always a bit discouraging to do an experiment and then have someone say.... "I tried that....... I could have told you it doesn't work".....


H.W.

 

[jlangfo5]

I think your best bet would be to control the mash very carefully. If you were to mash really high, lets say at around 158.

Read this from BYO:

Alpha-amylase is the second enzyme that is used for starch conversion. The optimal temperature range of alpha-amylase is around 155–162 °F (68–72 °C), although it is still active to a lesser degree at lower temperatures. Alpha-amylase attacks starch molecules at random points along their chains. It is bulky enough that it is not able to attack the starch molecules around branching points. A rest in the high end of the alpha range will result in a less fermentable wort, resulting in a sweeter, more full-bodied beer. In particular, a short (20 minute) rest at 158–162 °F (70–72 °C), in a relatively thick mash (around 1.0 qt./lb. or ~2 L/kg) will produce a very thick, full-bodied beer.

This is particularly true for beers brewed with low-enzyme malts, such as British pale ale malts.

I mashed 30 lbs of crystal 40 and 60 at 160 and boiled it down to 2 gallons to attempt to make a malt syrup that was minimally fermentable, with the goal of using it to back sweeten sparkling ciders or meads.

 

[Owly055]

I think your best bet would be to control the mash very carefully. If you were to mash really high, lets say at around 158.

Read this from BYO:



I mashed 30 lbs of crystal 40 and 60 at 160 and boiled it down to 2 gallons to attempt to make a malt syrup that was minimally fermentable, with the goal of using it to back sweeten sparkling ciders or meads.

This is exactly the same concept........... I'm trying to do it without the flavors imparted with crystal.

I'm thinking in terms of mashing at somewhere between 160 and 165 at the moment. 165 appears to be the top end. I have one "ace in the hole" in the form of corn sugar. If I get virtually no attenuation, there is nothing preventing me from recalculating the recipe when fermentation stops, and adding some corn sugar syrup to get my alcohol. Malt for residual sweetness and flavor, and corn sugar for alcohol.
Dextrines produce little perceived sweetness, so it may be a complete waste of time and grain.


H.W.

 

[Bobby_M]

I was following along until you mentioned sourness. My only warning is if you plan to get that sourness post boil, the same bugs that sour wort can also break down dextrines and polysaccharides that beer yeast can't. If it's more about preboil sour mashing, carry on.

I always wondered how beers like Duchess De Burgnon were made (sorry, I think I butchered the spelling).

 

[hoffmeister]

I had the same thought as Bobby M. I admittedly don't have much experience with brewing sour beers, but my understanding has also always been that the bacteria that sour beer are able to ferment the sugars that beer yeast can't. If my understanding is correct, then, even if you have a wort with low attenuation and the beer yeast creates a really sweet beer, won't the bacteria just finish the job and dry out the finished beer?

 

[Owly055]

I'm looking to sour with fresh lemon juice....... I'll do this after fermentation is complete, and let the yeast work on whatever sugars are in the lemon juice for another week or so before cold crashing.

H.W.

 

[jlangfo5]

I am wondering how much flavor a lighter color crystal malt like crystal 20 might impart. If you want the residual sweetness to come from the barley, I think you really are kinda limited to either mashing it a certain way, picking grain malted a certain way, or picking a yeast strain that will not attenuate much.

As far as sour bugs go, I don't think Lacto Brevis really does much in terms of attenuation, I think people consider all sour bugs to be monsters at eating complex sugars because sour beers often include brett which can munch on complex sugars, but I think it is a slower process.

 

[GRBC]

I was following along until you mentioned sourness. My only warning is if you plan to get that sourness post boil, the same bugs that sour wort can also break down dextrines and polysaccharides that beer yeast can't. If it's more about preboil sour mashing, carry on.

I always wondered how beers like Duchess De Burgnon were made (sorry, I think I butchered the spelling).

I believe the Duchesse is a blend of young, sweet beer with aged sour.

 

[d3track]

Would a long hard boil help some as well, carmalizing a little possibly?

 

[Owly055]

Would a long hard boil help some as well, carmalizing a little possibly?

I don't think carmelizaton takes place at boiling temps..... It would concentrate the sugars, both fermentable and unfermentable, which would serve my purpose of having a higher residual sweetness. It's not a low ABV I'm looking for, but a high sweetness.

It's worth noting that Yesterday's experimental brew began fermenting within half an hour, and sounded like a percolator all night, bubbling very fast and steadily. Needless to say, I overpitched...... on purpose. Now a bit over 24 hours later, fermentation has pretty much stopped, and I'm seeing the beginnings of flocculation. I'm at roughly 4% ABV, and experience tells me that it isn't going to go much further. My target was 3%, where a normal brew at this gravity should hit 7.5% to 8%. At this point I'm expecting to hit somewhere around 4.5%, leaving me with a good residual sweetness, but not as much as I had wanted.

Changes in the next attempt..... probably well over a month off, will be a higher strike / mash temp. I hit 162 this time.......my target temp. Next time I'm shooing for 165. In addition I'm going to try something radical. I will soak the grain in minimal water at about 120 for 15 minutes or so, then use boiling water to try to hit my mash temp. In addition, I won't pull the bag and squeeze until the temp hits about 175. Your boil down idea is a good one............. It definitely won't hurt. That means more grain and more water.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I missed my 3% target by 2 points, and don't have as much residual sweetness as I had wanted. This AM I drew a small amount out via the tap on my fermenter, and put some Real Lemon in a few drops at a time. What was immediately obvious was that there was nowhere near enough residual sweetness to balance the lemon sourness if I put enough lemon in for flavor.

Conclusion is that I didn't mash high enough to achieve the desired sweetness.

Also Dextrines are not sweet enough for this purpose anyway. They seem to provide more richness and body than sweetness.

Next week, I will "go to secondary", and add fresh lemon to taste anyway.

It is clear to me at least that I won't be able to achieve the desired result with malt alone for sweetener. The commercial Shandies like L&K obviously kill the yeast, and add lemon and sweetener, and force carb.

What is especially interesting is the attenuation. My FG was .018 higher than would normally be expected which is not a lot. Yet I mashed at 162.... a full 10 degrees hotter than my typical mash. I intend to try a mash at 165 (1 gallon) just to see what happens. If I don't get full conversion, I can drop back to a lower temp and add some amylase. How high can we go and still get conversion? It appears that we will get significant attenuation regardless of weather beta amylase has a chance to do it's work or not.


H.W.

 

[Yooper]

Also Dextrines are not sweet enough for this purpose anyway. They seem to provide more richness and body than sweetness.

H.W.

I just saw this thread- but that was I was going to say, before you brewed. You may get a higher FG with a high mash temperature, but when I do my oatmeal stout, for example, it's not really sweet when I mash at 158. It's full bodied, with a "thick" mouthfeel. But it's not sweet.

If your FG was .018 higher than typical, that is quite a lot. Instead of 1.010, you'd get 1.028. That's huge. Or is that not what you meant?

 

[uncleleon]

What about a lower attenuating yeast strain? Make your bittering balance cloying? Carapils?

 

[Black Island Brewer]

OP, I like the lines you're thinking along, but, if I understand correctly, you're looking for sweetness without competing flavors (caramel, raisin, etc) so that the flavor would work with the lemon. So no crystal malts, which would add sweetness but also a flavor you're not looking for. I think even hard boiling the first runnings (which I think you couldn't really do because you do full-volume BIAB) would also be incongruent with the flavor profile you're looking for. And since your experiment found that dextrins don't give you the sweetness you're seeking, what I wonder is if there is a specialty malt that could give you what you're looking for. Maybe a light crystal, or honey malt, or something along those lines. Lactose could be another option, although it seems to add more body than sweetness (but still SOME sweetness).

If you keg and force carbonate, maybe you could add some potassium sorbate once fermentation is complete, and then backsweeten to taste. Barring that, I have to agree with the concensus that a lower attenuating yeast strain might be the best option.

 

[Quadrupled]

I once tried the extra Crystal malt option on an Octoberfest - I didn't like the results and it became my beer-bread beer.

On top of the previous recommendations, I'd also suggest to consider reducing your IBUs (maybe 15- 20%?). Potentially allowing for a perceptively sweeter beer while not throwing in the artificial sweeteners or using a yeast strain other than you may have wanted.

 

[blizz81]

OP, I like the lines you're thinking along, but, if I understand correctly, you're looking for sweetness without competing flavors (caramel, raisin, etc) so that the flavor would work with the lemon. So no crystal malts, which would add sweetness but also a flavor you're not looking for. I think even hard boiling the first runnings (which I think you couldn't really do because you do full-volume BIAB) would also be incongruent with the flavor profile you're looking for. And since your experiment found that dextrins don't give you the sweetness you're seeking, what I wonder is if there is a specialty malt that could give you what you're looking for. Maybe a light crystal, or honey malt, or something along those lines. Lactose could be another option, although it seems to add more body than sweetness (but still SOME sweetness).

If you keg and force carbonate, maybe you could add some potassium sorbate once fermentation is complete, and then backsweeten to taste. Barring that, I have to agree with the concensus that a lower attenuating yeast strain might be the best option.

If it is indeed for a sweet and tart-like shandy / to go with a lemon flavor, I don't know what will get that sugary sweetness like backsweetening, and even then as speculated, for a bona-fide sugary sweetness vs. something slightly off like a Splenda, I would think you'd have to go sucrose.


Though hopefully you find something that meets your satisfaction, and the experimentation is obviously fun / beneficial in and of itself. I would think if you were at 165 and held that for the mash, you'd probably have significant conversion issues judging from what I've seen around about people accidentally overshooting their target mash temp.

 

[Owly055]

OP, I like the lines you're thinking along, but, if I understand correctly, you're looking for sweetness without competing flavors (caramel, raisin, etc) so that the flavor would work with the lemon. So no crystal malts, which would add sweetness but also a flavor you're not looking for. I think even hard boiling the first runnings (which I think you couldn't really do because you do full-volume BIAB) would also be incongruent with the flavor profile you're looking for. And since your experiment found that dextrins don't give you the sweetness you're seeking, what I wonder is if there is a specialty malt that could give you what you're looking for. Maybe a light crystal, or honey malt, or something along those lines. Lactose could be another option, although it seems to add more body than sweetness (but still SOME sweetness).

If you keg and force carbonate, maybe you could add some potassium sorbate once fermentation is complete, and then backsweeten to taste. Barring that, I have to agree with the concensus that a lower attenuating yeast strain might be the best option.

I think your potassium sorbate solution is probably the only one other than heating the brew to kill the yeast. Any addition of fermentable sweetener is going to result in fermentation. Clearly the dextrin resulting from low attenuation adds far more "body" than it does sweetness. If there is much sweetness, there will be fermentability. Perhaps there is some enzyme that could result in a sweeter, non-fermentable sugar being produced from the dextrin....... something more on the order of xylitol, but if there is, obviously most of us here don't know about it.

I consider this a "failed experiment" at this point. My next step is to figure out where to go to make a good beer from what I have. I'm thinking that addition of a suitable "hop tea" to give more flavor and bittering to offset the low attenuation is probably the next step. Know when you're whipped and move on ;-)

H.W.

 

[mbobhat]

Noonan's Scotch Ale beer styles book mentions mashing really high AND mashing thick(1 qt/lb). I haven't delved too much into this but it protects the beta amylase from breaking apart but mostly leaves the longer chains???
They also mention doing a really high temp mash out to make sure and stop the activity. But then again their yeasts had a big part of high FG as well. They pitched a lot of yeast at lager temps and let it creep along until it fell out.

 

[Bryan_85]

I consider this a "failed experiment" at this point.
H.W.

If it's any consolation, it made for an interesting read, and I'm probably not the only one who learned something new! Thanks and keep these coming.



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Owly055]

If it's any consolation, it made for an interesting read, and I'm probably not the only one who learned something new! Thanks and keep these coming.



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

Yesterday I brewed in the evening. I doughed in using 130F strike water, which gave me 120 deg mash temp. I left the mash for 5 hours while I went to a friend's house for the afternoon, then heated slowly beginning at 6PM. The idea being to discover the effect of leaving the mash sit wet.... presumably all night. I was surprised to see and SG of .012 when I got home, but I suspect that was due to a large amount of crystal. CR60 made up 12% of my grain bill. I took my sweet time heating it, as I ate dinner and did various other things, spending an entire hour to reach boil. At 160, I lifted the bag and squeezed. Interestingly at my slow heat rate, I had achieved about 75% of my conversion by the time I hit 145. Mash efficiency was 75%.

This experiment is a prelude to doing an overnight mash....... well not really an overnight mash, but doughing in just before bed time, and setting a timer to start the hot plate at 3AM or whatever time. I am planning to build an "in bag circulation system" that will consist of an impeller that will push the mash / wort down through a large diameter tube, probably 4" or so, where it will then spread out over the bottom of the kettle and rise back up to be picked up and recirculated to the bottom (low flow). The drive will be mounted over the top like an ice cream maker, and the impeller will be a very simple disk, slotted in 3 or four places and bent so when it rotates inside the pipe, it will act like a pump. There will be no temp control at all, other than the setting on the hot plate. A temp sensor will set off an alarm when it hits 150 or so.

The second iteration would use a PID controller on the hot plate. It would maintain an upper limit, and the hot plate setting would govern how long it took to get there, and thus regulate the mash. For a dry beer, the settings would be low, for a sweet mash the hot plate would go on high, and the top setting would be higher. In this way one should be able to achieve consistency.


Howard

 

[Owly055]

I'm in the process of making "hop tea" to "hop up" my failed experiment. Due to the high residual gravity, I'm shooting for an IBU in the mid 40's Original IBU was about 25 due to my intent to add lemon. doing a boil with a small amount of water for 30 minutes is a touchy process. Trying to maintain a simmer. water volume is very low to avoid dilution. It'll be interesting to see what the result is.

H.W.