Immersion Chiller - best way to keep wort moving while cooling?

[wantonsoup]

I've done what I learned, stand there for 10-15 min with a sanitized spoon and stir. Honestly it's become my least favorite time of the brew day and I wish there were another way. I'm not ready to upgrade to a pump and counterflow/plate yet so I'm hoping there's some way to automate the stirring. Plus I feel like 10-15 min for a 4 gallon batch is too long so I'd like to reduce that time.

I'm thinking of maybe a food-safe paint stirrer on a drill? But that might aerate the wort which is bad until it's at pitchable temps I've read.

A cordless stick blender? Milk frother?

There's got to be a good solution here. I'm all ears!

 

[lhommedieu]

One option is to gently spread the coils on your immersion chiller so that the coils come into contact with a larger volume of wort in the tun. It doesn't make the chiller look as aesthetically pleasing as the original version, but I believe that the physics is somewhat of an improvement.

Another option is to get a cheap pump from Craigslist and use it to recirculate ice water through the chiller. Search for that option here on HBT and I'll bet that you come up with some hits.

Or bite the bullet and go with the chiller and pump. You'll be amazed how quickly you can cool down hot wort, particularly in the winter months.

 

[GenIke]

I just stir with the chiller every few minutes. Like pick it up and set it down a few times.

 

[lhommedieu]

+1. As the wort chills, the colder wort settles to the bottom of the tun and the hot wort rises. By lifting the chiller up and down, you let the cooler wort mix with the hotter wort. Doing this every three or four minutes sounds a lot easier than stirring. Of course, you're making sure that you hands don't come into contact with the wort...

 

[wantonsoup]

That would likely extend the cooling time though wouldn't it, versus actual stirring?

 

[lhommedieu]

Possibly - but you stated that you want to get away from stirring, and as you mentioned, you run the risk of aerating hot wort if you use a mechanical stirrer.

Would separating the coils, running ice water through the chiller, and mixing the cold water/hot water differential by lifting the chiller a few times decrease the cooling time? Possibly, as well. You could also place the boil kettle in a tub of ice, as well, and take off heat from both ends. Any combination of these techniques will cool your wort faster.

In the long run, it's partially a question of efficiency vs. cost. How much is my time worth? Hypothetically, brewing once per month for 5 years makes a Therminator/pump setup cost about $6 per 5 gallon batch (or $3 per 10 gallon batch, if we use a 5 gallon batch as the baseline). That cost includes not just more efficient cooling, but using the pump for other purposes, e.g. moving wort through different equipment, moving water around without having to lift and carry it, moving hot wort through a closed system, etc.

But short-term economics often dictate long-term economics, hence the need to innovate in the short term. And even if I innovate, am I merely trading similar costs but just spreading them out over the long term? My brewing life is full of similar trade-offs; the important thing is to enjoy what you do.

 

[pablosbrewing]

I've done what I learned, stand there for 10-15 min with a sanitized spoon and stir. Honestly it's become my least favorite time of the brew day and I wish there were another way. I'm not ready to upgrade to a pump and counterflow/plate yet so I'm hoping there's some way to automate the stirring. Plus I feel like 10-15 min for a 4 gallon batch is too long so I'd like to reduce that time.

I'm thinking of maybe a food-safe paint stirrer on a drill? But that might aerate the wort which is bad until it's at pitchable temps I've read.

A cordless stick blender? Milk frother?

There's got to be a good solution here. I'm all ears!

I'm going to use this pump to recirculate from the kettle ball valve to a recirculation arm:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/361163382356

Inspiration for this was here - the tee arrangement is not needed. It can be attached to a port on the kettle or attached to the chiller like Jamil did:
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

Edi: You can also pump ice water through the chiller with a second pump like he does there. If you add a temp controller to that 2nd pump you can cool to a specific temp for hopstand, etc. which is what I'm planning to do with my electric build (so I can add heat back in as needed over an extended hopstand time).

 

[MattyIce]

I agitate by moving the IC itself for the entirety of the chill. This is less about saving time and more about saving water.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I put my BK in a bath of ice water in my sink and then use a small marine bilge pump submerged in the sink to circulate the ice water through the IC and eject back into the sink. I agitate the IC up and down periodically and refresh the ice once or twice. My sink isn't terribly deep so only the bottom half of the wort is actually submerged but it still cools 5.5 gal to the mid 60s in 15-20 min with minimal effort. If I stirred constantly I could probably cool it in 10 min but I'm too lazy for that. The whole process uses about 3-4 gal of water, 2 frozen gal jugs and 2 bags of ice.

 

[pwnshop]

i have never stirred the wort while the IC is running. i just hook it up and turn on the water and leave it alone. i take temp when i think its probably getting close to pitching time.
Why are you stirring it? Are you trying to save time by cooling it quicker? how much time do you believe you are actually saving? Since I have never stirred or touched the wort after boiling I have no idea. Unless stirring significantly speeds up the cooling process I'd say don't even bother and just take the extra 10 minutes or whatever to clean something or sanitize something.

that's just my two cents, i'm a beginner so what do i know?

 

[wantonsoup]

that's just my two cents, i'm a beginner so what do i know?

You want as short a cooling time as possible. The time between cutting the heat and getting the yeast pitched is the most dangerous time for infections.

 

[lhommedieu]

A short cooling time is indeed preferable, and stirring is one way to shorten cooling time because you are dissipating heat. If you're not into stirring, however, the above mentioned techniques are also ways to shorten cooling time as well.

 

[pwnshop]

You want as short a cooling time as possible. The time between cutting the heat and getting the yeast pitched is the most dangerous time for infections.

Yeah. I don't know it takes about 15 minutes to cool to pitching temp with my IC. Prior to that I cooled in an ice bath and it took much longer.

I guess if I stirred it maybe I could get it down to 10 minutes or something, but I don't really know if I'm too worried about it since it has always been fine and I've never had any sort of infection.

 

[govner1]

I've done what I learned, stand there for 10-15 min with a sanitized spoon and stir. Honestly it's become my least favorite time of the brew day and I wish there were another way. I'm not ready to upgrade to a pump and counterflow/plate yet so I'm hoping there's some way to automate the stirring. Plus I feel like 10-15 min for a 4 gallon batch is too long so I'd like to reduce that time.

I'm thinking of maybe a food-safe paint stirrer on a drill? But that might aerate the wort which is bad until it's at pitchable temps I've read.

A cordless stick blender? Milk frother?

There's got to be a good solution here. I'm all ears!

Be careful using "automated" stirring w/ paint mixers, etc. you cause yourself hot side aeration issues.

 

[ZebulonBrewer]

You want as short a cooling time as possible. The time between cutting the heat and getting the yeast pitched is the most dangerous time for infections.

While what you're saying is correct, an additional 10 minutes is not the end of the world. If he has good sanitizing practices already, he will be fine by setting the chiller and coming back when it's cool. (full disclosure: I do stir while the beer is cooling because I AM impatient, but I used to let it sit and never had a problem)

That said, there are a number of brewers I've seen who do a 'no-chill' and let it sit overnight (covered!!!!! ) in their fermentation chamber, and then pitch in the morning. I haven't tried this but, if you're patient, it would work.

Also, to the guy who mentioned hot-side aeration:

http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/

Cool exBEERiment, though keep in mind the results only extend as far as HIS setup and recipe.

 

[depper]

I've done 2 all-grain batches this spring and have used a 5 gallon paint stirrer on a drill with my IC. Works great! I do believe it helps to cool the wort quicker and it also helps to create a whirlpool effect in the wort so I don't suck up so much trub when draining into my fermentor. It was only a couple of bucks at HD. Just clean, sanitize and use....

Tim

 

[Foosier]

Kudo's to Zebulon for being the first to post that Hot Side Aeration is a myth! The more we can debunk this the better.

Personally, I use a large Restaurant size heavy wire whisk to stir my wort during mash, boil and chilling. During chilling I whip it like it owes me money and get a good froth going. This speed cooling by ensuing the wort is constantly moving over the chiller coils. The secondary benefit is that it gets air into the wort. The yeast needs O2 to get a healthy ferment started. This two-fer saves me a few minutes so I call it a win.

 

[pvpeacock]

I have used a paint mixer for a year and a half with no problems. Whether hot side aeration is real or not, my mixer does not splash the wort or cause it to foam up. It just does a great job of stirring the wort which speeds cooling when using an immersion chiller. In addition, it works great when doughing in and batch sparging. It is one of my favorite tools for brewing. I had a cheap plastic mixer, but I left it in Starsan and it ate the chrome plating off the shaft. I just bought this stainless steel mixer from Amazon and used it for the first time yesterday. Worked like a charm for mashing/sparging and cooling.

 

[sumbrewindude]

Be careful using "automated" stirring w/ paint mixers, etc. you cause yourself hot side aeration issues.

Horse pucky. The wort will be below that threshold in minutes, provided you've got adequate flow through the chiller (read wide open) and a large enough chiller (eg not 20' of 3/8" copper for 5+ gal). I can drop the wort from 190F to under 140F in less than 2min using a paint mixer, and from 140 to pitch in under 6min, all the while aerating and cooling.

A drill and a paint mixer is the bee's knees for cooling fast and aerating.

 

[brewprint]

I've done what I learned, stand there for 10-15 min with a sanitized spoon and stir. Honestly it's become my least favorite time of the brew day and I wish there were another way. I'm not ready to upgrade to a pump and counterflow/plate yet so I'm hoping there's some way to automate the stirring. Plus I feel like 10-15 min for a 4 gallon batch is too long so I'd like to reduce that time.

I'm thinking of maybe a food-safe paint stirrer on a drill? But that might aerate the wort which is bad until it's at pitchable temps I've read.

A cordless stick blender? Milk frother?

There's got to be a good solution here. I'm all ears!

Don't want to aerate hot wort? I've seen something like that here and there but I still do it and haven't had an infection.

I just use my big spoon that I used to stir the wort in the kettle. No sanitizing needed as it's been in the boiling wort.

15 minutes a long time? You're joking. I can't help you if you think that's a long time. I had a 25ft copper IC and upgraded to a 50ft and went from 20-30 to 15 since I started doing full volume boils biab.

 

[MattyIce]

i have never stirred the wort while the IC is running. i just hook it up and turn on the water and leave it alone. i take temp when i think its probably getting close to pitching time.
Why are you stirring it? Are you trying to save time by cooling it quicker? how much time do you believe you are actually saving? Since I have never stirred or touched the wort after boiling I have no idea. Unless stirring significantly speeds up the cooling process I'd say don't even bother and just take the extra 10 minutes or whatever to clean something or sanitize something.

that's just my two cents, i'm a beginner so what do i know?

I have not measured what not stirring takes, but I do notice that the output of my 50' IC cools to the touch in seconds if left still. The moment I start agitating, it will heat up again almost instantly. I figure if my IC output is cool, it is not doing a great job cooling the still-hot wort.

Like I said, it is more of a water conservation concern than a time one for me.

 

[TexasWine]

The ultimate solution would be just to do no-chill. Dump it right in your fermenting bucket and let it just coast down to pitching temp. Heck, some folks here on HBT just leave it in the kettle while it cools. Some point fans at their kettle to speed it up. One guy even admitted to fermenting in his kettle! Oh the heresy (genius)!

Personally I've never had an infection in my beer, and it's clear as a whistle. You just need to make sure to adjust your hop schedule to account for the extended time the wort is hot.

 

[pvpeacock]

Stirring dramatically increases the speed with which the wort chills. That, in turn, saves a lot of water which is more important than ever here in California.

 

[The_Bishop]

i have never stirred the wort while the IC is running. i just hook it up and turn on the water and leave it alone. i take temp when i think its probably getting close to pitching time.
Why are you stirring it? Are you trying to save time by cooling it quicker? how much time do you believe you are actually saving? Since I have never stirred or touched the wort after boiling I have no idea. Unless stirring significantly speeds up the cooling process I'd say don't even bother and just take the extra 10 minutes or whatever to clean something or sanitize something.

that's just my two cents, i'm a beginner so what do i know?

Stirring while chilling with an immersion chiller is *vastly* improved over just turning it on and walk away. We're talking on the magnitude of 1/4 of the time or less, depending on your batch size. In turn, it uses much less water.

On a friendly note, maybe save your opinions for stuff you have actual experience with before knocking someone's process.

 

[pablosbrewing]

One guy even admitted to fermenting in his kettle! Oh the heresy (genius)!

Fermenting in the kettle - good enough for rocket scientist and Brutus designer Lonnie Mac:

 

[grrickar]

I have been boiling my IC for the last 15 minutes, and then I flip on the pump and run ice water thru it - so sub-40 degree water.

I am thinking I will stop boiling my IC for two reasons:

One: tossing it in kills the boil for a few minutes. I just add time to the boil by pausing the timer, but it takes a bit longer

Two: since it is heating the coil up having it in the boil, I am losing some of my cooling to chilling an already hot coil.

I want to chill faster to get a good cold break, so thinking I will start soaking the chiller in StarSan and toss it in 'cold' at the end of the boil with cold water running thru it from the start. Since the coil will not be as hot to start, and judging how fast it knocks down the boil I should get somewhat better efficiency.

In the summer when it is safe to use the outside hydrant (meaning they are not frozen or buried in snow, I will just pipe cold water thru the coil.

Right now I am using two 17 gallon rope handled buckets, one with ice water an a HF pond pump, and an empty one I use to collect the hot water to clean my gear,

 

[lhommedieu]

If conserving water is an issue, then the simplest solution may be to reuse chiller water as cleaning water. For example, recirculate it into your equipment, heat it, add PBW, and let soak or recirculate it while you're dealing with your fermentation vessels, etc. This way you're set up to start cleaning as soon as the fermentation process begins. In my case I have four vessels that are soaking while I'm adding yeast, sealing carboys, moving them to fermentation chambers, etc.

 

[pwnshop]

Stirring while chilling with an immersion chiller is *vastly* improved over just turning it on and walk away. We're talking on the magnitude of 1/4 of the time or less, depending on your batch size. In turn, it uses much less water.

On a friendly note, maybe save your opinions for stuff you have actual experience with before knocking someone's process.

just to clarify - I was not knocking anyone's process and I would never do that, if it came across that way then my apologies to all involved.

And on that note, if stirring is going to knock off 3/4s of my chilling time I will be trying it on my next brew day.

 

[grrickar]

If conserving water is an issue, then the simplest solution may be to reuse chiller water as cleaning water. For example, recirculate it into your equipment, heat it, add PBW, and let soak or recirculate it while you're dealing with your fermentation vessels, etc. This way you're set up to start cleaning as soon as the fermentation process begins. In my case I have four vessels that are soaking while I'm adding yeast, sealing carboys, moving them to fermentation chambers, etc.

That is exactly what I used the 17 gallon tubs for. Works great. 'Free' hot water LOL.

 

[jrgtr42]

I haven't bothered stirring and I get it down to pitching temps in roughly 15 minutes - of course I am using 50' of 1/2" tubing in a ribcage design - the top coil or 2 is actually out of the wort with 5 gallons even in the kettle.
I guess I'm saying that unless constant stirring makes a dramatic difference, like cutting time in half, is it really a big deal to do it or not do it?

 

[IDoBleedBrew]

Maybe I'm just lucky enough to be blessed with cold ground water. So far, I've been able to chill 3.5-4 gallons with the immersion chiller in just over 4 minutes (with stirring). I just make sure to stir the wort in the opposite direction of the water flow and it drops crazy fast. You and I apparently differ, because I find that part of the most enjoyable part of brewing... watching that thermometer drop so crazy fast. It's the little things. =) Four... no more than 5 minutes to get it from 212 to below 75 and I'm ready to pitch.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I just make sure to stir the wort in the opposite direction of the water flow and it drops crazy fast.[...]

That's some funny **** right there!

Cheers!

 

[bu_gee]

Even if you don't want to stir, you can use natural convection to do the mixing for you by making sure the cold water goes to the top coils first thus causing that wort to sink.

This may however cause your transfer efficiency to drop and thus cause you to need to use more water because you won't have the same low temperature differential for the wort already at the bottom.

 

[IDoBleedBrew]

That's some funny **** right there!

Cheers!

I asked my physics professor why I was able to see twice the the speed in temperature drop when stirring in the same direction (as opposed to not stirring at all) and why I was able to see nearly four times as fast of a drop in temp when stirring in the opposite direction of the flow of water (as opposed to not stirring at all), and she was able to explain it in a way that made total sense. That was several weeks before we reached thermodynamics... if I was patient enough I would have been able to figure it out in my own in time, but I'm not that patient and she was gracious enough to take the time to explain it.

 

[JustLooking]

I asked my physics professor why I was able to see twice the the speed in temperature drop when stirring in the same direction (as opposed to not stirring at all) and why I was able to see nearly four times as fast of a drop in temp when stirring in the opposite direction of the flow of water (as opposed to not stirring at all), and she was able to explain it in a way that made total sense. That was several weeks before we reached thermodynamics... if I was patient enough I would have been able to figure it out in my own in time, but I'm not that patient and she was gracious enough to take the time to explain it.

I call BS. If you stir enough to hold a relatively uniform temperature in your kettle there will be no difference from stirring direction.

 

[bu_gee]

I asked my physics professor ... and she was gracious enough to take the time to explain it.

I think most of us are familiar with both the concepts of forced convection AND anecdotal evidence even if we don't know what they're called.