I messed up, can it be fixed?

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raecmr

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Hi Everyone,

On my 5th batch now and learning something new everytime. My previous batches have all been with store bought juice and I havent had an issue. Here is the info on my most recent batch.

2/4/13
15 can meijer apple juice concentrate (5 gal tap water boiled)
1 gal motts apple juice
3 cups sucrose
2 cups dextrose
2 tsp pectic enzyme
3 campden tabs
6 gal total
2/4/13 11pm.

Pitched 1 pack safale S-05 at 10pm on 2/5/13

OG ~1.052

The problem with my cider is that it smells pretty bad, a sulfur smell, almost like sewage.

I only added 3 campden taps since I boiled the water and was pretty certain it was clean. However, I didnt crush them before adding, when I woke up the next morning they were only partially dissolved. I stirred them up by shaking the container a bit and I pitched a package of dry yeast ~8hrs later, wasnt re-hydrated before pitching but this hasnt been a problem in the past.

The fermentation didnt start for nearly a week after pitching the yeast, which is unlike my previous batches. None of those batches I have used campden either. I think I pitched the yeast too soon after adding campden and the yeast that were able to ferment the juice were very stressed resulting in the sulfur smell. My reason for thinking this is fermentation stopped at 1.010 I let it sit for nearly two weeks with no change. Could have added some nutrient and re-pitched but...

The batch is currently kegged. I dosed 3 campden taps and 1/2tsp per gallon of potassium sorbate to stabilize it and back sweetened with 5 cans apple juice concentrate.

Although I assume it is the stressed yeast there are several variables here:
City water (water doesn't smell bad, dont have numbers, but GF doesnt like)
Campden/sorbate (smelled bad before adding the sorbate though)
Delayed fermentation

The cider actually tastes pretty good, however the smell is very off putting. I know its there put can still drink it, my other friend liked the taste ad didnt comment about the smell. However my GF wont drink it because of the smell. However she doesnt like the tap water to begin with so might be a few issues here.

Anyways, what do you all think the issue may be? And is there anyway to limit the current rotten smell besides letting out some CO2 daily and hoping that off gasses the smell?
 
Hi Everyone,

On my 5th batch now and learning something new everytime. My previous batches have all been with store bought juice and I havent had an issue. Here is the info on my most recent batch.

2/4/13
15 can meijer apple juice concentrate (5 gal tap water boiled)
1 gal motts apple juice
3 cups sucrose
2 cups dextrose
2 tsp pectic enzyme
3 campden tabs
6 gal total
2/4/13 11pm.

Pitched 1 pack safale S-05 at 10pm on 2/5/13

OG ~1.052

The problem with my cider is that it smells pretty bad, a sulfur smell, almost like sewage.

I only added 3 campden taps since I boiled the water and was pretty certain it was clean. However, I didnt crush them before adding, when I woke up the next morning they were only partially dissolved. I stirred them up by shaking the container a bit and I pitched a package of dry yeast ~8hrs later, wasnt re-hydrated before pitching but this hasnt been a problem in the past.

The fermentation didnt start for nearly a week after pitching the yeast, which is unlike my previous batches. None of those batches I have used campden either. I think I pitched the yeast too soon after adding campden and the yeast that were able to ferment the juice were very stressed resulting in the sulfur smell. My reason for thinking this is fermentation stopped at 1.010 I let it sit for nearly two weeks with no change. Could have added some nutrient and re-pitched but...

The batch is currently kegged. I dosed 3 campden taps and 1/2tsp per gallon of potassium sorbate to stabilize it and back sweetened with 5 cans apple juice concentrate.

Although I assume it is the stressed yeast there are several variables here:
City water (water doesn't smell bad, dont have numbers, but GF doesnt like)
Campden/sorbate (smelled bad before adding the sorbate though)
Delayed fermentation

The cider actually tastes pretty good, however the smell is very off putting. I know its there put can still drink it, my other friend liked the taste ad didnt comment about the smell. However my GF wont drink it because of the smell. However she doesnt like the tap water to begin with so might be a few issues here.

Anyways, what do you all think the issue may be? And is there anyway to limit the current rotten smell besides letting out some CO2 daily and hoping that off gasses the smell?

Sulfur smell is a normal fermentation byproduct..I would let it go for a few weeks more.
 
Sulfur smell is a normal fermentation byproduct..I would let it go for a few weeks more.

I think it's already in his keg...so it's beyond just fermentation rhino farts at this point.

I'd do exactly what you mentioned in your post, bleed off some CO2 from the release valve each day and see if you can get it to give up that smell. It's probably SO2, but that usually smells like sulfur and not straight up sewage.

I'd also suggest making another batch, but using bottled water or just buy all juice (not from concentrate) and see if that helps.
 
For one thing, I think you are off on your OG and it has a lot more alcohol than you think. That many cans of apple juice concentrate alone is almost enough to yield 6 gallons of 1.052 must. Add in that it was only constituted to 5 gallons with a gallon of juice probably brings you closer to 1.060. The sugar you added is damn close to 20 gravity points, bringing you at the very least to 1.075. I'm not sure how you checked your OG, but I'm guessing things weren't mixed well enough. Having said that, your cider was probably close to 9% ABV when it stalled, and when your alcohol gets that high more fermentation bi products are made, most of which don't taste good. You can't rush a high gravity cider like this. This is very similar to apfelwein, which many people agree is not drinkable much before 6 months, and doesn't hit it's stride for a year. Next time you may just consider making a straight juice cider.
 
I think it's already in his keg...so it's beyond just fermentation rhino farts at this point.

I'd do exactly what you mentioned in your post, bleed off some CO2 from the release valve each day and see if you can get it to give up that smell. It's probably SO2, but that usually smells like sulfur and not straight up sewage.

I'd also suggest making another batch, but using bottled water or just buy all juice (not from concentrate) and see if that helps.

Yes, it is already in the keg, stabilized and back sweetened.

I was thinking about doing that. I will be moving in 2 moths though so if it was the water I will have different water to contend with shortly. However, it would let me know if the was the problem. I also dont want to get stuck with another 5gal of something not exactly pleasant but if I make more than one change I wont know what the culprit is. I really think I stunted the yeast by pitching too soon after adding the campden and severely stressed the yeast.

Just asked GF she says it smelled like sulfur (although I told her that so might not be reliable) she also mentions rotten apples....

I'll keep bleeding of the C02 and see what happens. I dont want to tie a keg up with subpar cider too long, so I might just try to finish off the keg and get a better batch going.

I read that copper can be used to react with the sulfur components. Would buying a piece of copper pipe from the hardware store and stirring the keg (after cleaning and disinfecting) have any benefit?
 
For one thing, I think you are off on your OG and it has a lot more alcohol than you think. That many cans of apple juice concentrate alone is almost enough to yield 6 gallons of 1.052 must. Add in that it was only constituted to 5 gallons with a gallon of juice probably brings you closer to 1.060. The sugar you added is damn close to 20 gravity points, bringing you at the very least to 1.075. I'm not sure how you checked your OG, but I'm guessing things weren't mixed well enough. Having said that, your cider was probably close to 9% ABV when it stalled, and when your alcohol gets that high more fermentation bi products are made, most of which don't taste good. You can't rush a high gravity cider like this. This is very similar to apfelwein, which many people agree is not drinkable much before 6 months, and doesn't hit it's stride for a year. Next time you may just consider making a straight juice cider.

Thanks for the feedback, I used the hydrometer like I always have. However, I do remember seeing a gradient which I assumed was the campden dissolving. You are very correct in that the sample I drew from the top of the carboy could have been significantly less than what it actually was.

The taste is quite pleasant, and doesnt have much if any alcohol sting though, which I would expect with that high of an ABV. It is the smell that is the problem. GF confirms that without the smell it would be quite drinkable. The cider tastes sweet, tart, and is very smooth, but the smell is overpowering.
 
I read that copper can be used to react with the sulfur components. Would buying a piece of copper pipe from the hardware store and stirring the keg (after cleaning and disinfecting) have any benefit?

Honestly, I've never experienced sulfur overload. (knock on wood) I do get it during the first couple of days of primary fermentation, but I never have it linger in the final product. I've also heard about copper somehow binding the sulfur and removing it from the cider (not sure what the scientific procedure is). Maybe running it through an immersion chiller would work just as well?

Hopefully someone else on the forum can provide more assistance.
 
I've read the forum on skeeter pee (hard lemonade) in the wine forum. A lot of people have problems with sulfur smell due to stressed yeast. This could have been due to the vitamin c added to your concentrate which is an acid. Between that and your campdens you may have shocked them, causing your slow start.

One suggestion I read said to take cleaned and sanitized copper pennies and put them in your batch. That might be cheaper and easier than buying a copper pipe.

I also filter my water before adding it to my brews because there are some chemicals that can harm your yeast or produce off tastes. The guy at my lhbs said that they put a new kind of chlorine that won't evaporate and needs to be filtered.
 
Well, I have been degassing the cider since the last post. Just releasing the CO2 and everytime I walk by. I also took a handful of pre 1982 US pennies (95% copper) and hung them from a hop bag inside the keg.

I cleaned them with a steel rotating wheel on a dremel to get them shiny then soaked them in vinegar and salt to get any oxidation off. Rinsed in sterile water and placed in starsan for a few minutes.

Another friend tried the cider today and said it was amazing. I am not getting much smell today at all and he didnt notice it at all. I'm not sure if it was the pennies or the degassing but seems to be working. Would think the pennies would need more time to work but im not a chemist.

My friends are either too nice or my GF is really picky. I will get her to try it again and report back.

Does anyone see any problem leaving the bag of pennies hanging inside the keg? I dont want any chemical reactions with the stainless steel.
 
Pull the pennies, you don't want them hanging out in there. I'm glad it came around.
 
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