I finally got that real German wheatbeer flavor

[badmajon]

hey just sharing what took me almost 10 years to figure out- I finally got that real German wheatbeer flavor.

Just pitched a vial of WLP300 with no starter and I didn’t add any oxygen at all. I didn’t even stir it. Crazy! Took a little longer to start but it got down to 1.012 after about a week. Fermented at 69 degrees.

This whole time I had been making starters and oxygenating with pure o2. For years I just couldn’t bring myself to not do that as I do that with every beer. Then I finally tried it and BAM, it’s like I’m at the Munich Hofbrauhaus again.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Depends on how you like the balance. That will produce banana forward for sure.

If you drop the pitching rate lower (I've actually aged yeast for this), but drop the fermentation temp down AND add in a ferulic acid mash rest, the clove becomes a lot more dominant (you get a little less banana but don't lose it).

Problem is you REALLY beat the yeast up this way. Normally I'll repitch 7-10 gens, but with this 2nd gen is iffy and 3rd stops attenuating as much. I've never tried (and won't) for a 4th gen.

 

[SanPancho]

Depends on how you like the balance. That will produce banana forward for sure.

If you drop the pitching rate lower (I've actually aged yeast for this), but drop the fermentation temp down AND add in a ferulic acid mash rest, the clove becomes a lot more dominant (you get a little less banana but don't lose it).

Problem is you REALLY beat the yeast up this way. Normally I'll repitch 7-10 gens, but with this 2nd gen is iffy and 3rd stops attenuating as much. I've never tried (and won't) for a 4th gen.

You ever been able to get the clove without the banana? Have a rye-hefe in my mind with rye and clove. But i got a banana bomb. No bueno.

 

[Qhrumphf]

You ever been able to get the clove without the banana? Have a rye-hefe in my mind with rye and clove. But i got a banana bomb. No bueno.

Love me a good Roggenbier!

I don't want to crush the banana, but O2, starter, and cool temp would crush the banana. May wanna lengthen the ferulic rest so you don't lose clove too.

 

[SanPancho]

Maybe ill do a one gal batch. See what i can do. But we gotta use dry yeast so ill just overpitch a bit a bit too.

 

[thehaze]

You'll never get rid of banana and clove in a real hefe beer. You can however have one of those being more proeminent. But banana does not disappear just because you do a ferulic acid step, ferment cold and overpitch. It will somewhat supress the esters, would probably be correct.

The best dry hefe yeast is Munich Classic from Lallemand, which supposedly is Weihenstephaner.

 

[Smellyglove]

I would never not use starter or pure 02, and I make pretty decent hefes. There's a lot more in the mashing which is important to a hefe than for most other beers. Besides, wlp300 is not a very good hefe yeast imo. I bet you'd get a good hefe with both starter and o2 if you switched to 3068.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I would never not use starter or pure 02, and I make pretty decent hefes. There's a lot more in the mashing which is important to a hefe than for most other beers. Besides, wlp300 is not a very good hefe yeast imo. I bet you'd get a good hefe with both starter and o2 if you switched to 3068.

They're both allegedly the Weihenstephan 68 strain. That of course doesn't mean much, given that US05, WLP001 and WY1056 are supposed to be the same as well, but are each genetically different (and behave slightly differently).

I haven't tried side by side, but I've used both versions and been happy with both. Though I've used WY more.

Making a starter or using pure O2 because you're *supposed to* misses the point of doing them in the first place. If "underpitching" gives better results compared to what you'd pitch for other beers, that higher rate is therefore overpitching. Pitching rate and O2 are absolutely adjustable variables and need to be tailored to recipes like any thing else. Just perhaps the tier beyond water adjustment.

It's all about getting the results you want. If you like your results, keep on. For me, and the clove-dominant Hefe I like, it's a LONG rest at 110F and a full step mash (decocting when I do it at home), a low pitching rate (enough so that a single smack pack for typical Hefe gravity is too much yeast if the yeast is fresh), zero added oxygen, and fermented at 62F.

I get mountains of clove and plenty of banana, proper attenuation, and a pretty normal timeline. The only downside is yeast stress makes repitching less than ideal. But 2-3 gens it still works (2nd gen takes an extra day or two and 3rd gen it attenuates slightly less but acceptable though enough that I won't go further).

 

[Qhrumphf]

You'll never get rid of banana and clove in a real hefe beer. You can however have one of those being more proeminent. But banana does not disappear just because you do a ferulic acid step, ferment cold and overpitch. It will somewhat supress the esters, would probably be correct.

The best dry hefe yeast is Munich Classic from Lallemand, which supposedly is Weihenstephaner.

I've had plenty a bland Hefe where isoamyl acetate or 4VG are reduced to near threshold.

Not something I would want, but sounds like that's the goal.

 

[Smellyglove]

They're both allegedly the Weihenstephan 68 strain. That of course doesn't mean much, given that US05, WLP001 and WY1056 are supposed to be the same as well, but are each genetically different (and behave slightly differently).

I haven't tried side by side, but I've used both versions and been happy with both. Though I've used WY more.

Making a starter or using pure O2 because you're *supposed to* misses the point of doing them in the first place. If "underpitching" gives better results compared to what you'd pitch for other beers, that higher rate is therefore overpitching. Pitching rate and O2 are absolutely adjustable variables and need to be tailored to recipes like any thing else. Just perhaps the tier beyond water adjustment.

It's all about getting the results you want. If you like your results, keep on. For me, and the clove-dominant Hefe I like, it's a LONG rest at 110F and a full step mash (decocting when I do it at home), a low pitching rate (enough so that a single smack pack for typical Hefe gravity is too much yeast if the yeast is fresh), zero added oxygen, and fermented at 62F.

I get mountains of clove and plenty of banana, proper attenuation, and a pretty normal timeline. The only downside is yeast stress makes repitching less than ideal. But 2-3 gens it still works (2nd gen takes an extra day or two and 3rd gen it attenuates slightly less but acceptable though enough that I won't go further).

Agree that 3rd gen is as far as I go. It's believe it or not, hard to harvest hefe-yeast for several batches. The profile changes quickly.

 

[Bassman2003]

It's all about getting the results you want. If you like your results, keep on. For me, and the clove-dominant Hefe I like, it's a LONG rest at 110F and a full step mash (decocting when I do it at home), a low pitching rate (enough so that a single smack pack for typical Hefe gravity is too much yeast if the yeast is fresh), zero added oxygen, and fermented at 62F.

This is pretty much all one needs to know about making a good homebrew hefe. Add low oxygen with spunding and you are in business for a true German representation.

 

[Vale71]

This is pretty much all one needs to know about making a good homebrew hefe. Add low oxygen with spunding and you are in business for a true German representation.

FYI German Hefeweizen is almost always bottle conditioned.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, that is why spunding in the keg is important unless one bottles.

 

[Lefou]

I've had plenty a bland Hefe where isoamyl acetate or 4VG are reduced to near threshold.
Not something I would want, but sounds like that's the goal.

That's where "American style" WLP320 fits in.
Ferment this one cool for minimized phenol and esters and choose your hops carefully. Noble hops in the range of 8-15 IBU can leave a sweet, malty beer so the bittering levels should be adjusted somewhat higher to compensate.