I can't make a clear beer to save my life

[archer75]

I've started with biab, then on to a cooler mash tun and finally a blichmann mash tun and I recirculate.
I have used whirlfoc/irish moss, cold crashed and this last time I tried geletin. I just can't make a perfectly clear beer. Even my lagers won't clear like I want them to. Close, but no cigar.

I keg everything.

I've done all the obvious things but there's something i'm missing. Any ideas?

 

[Britinusa]

When are you adding the Irish moss and how much?
How long are you fermenting?

 

[archer75]

When are you adding the Irish moss and how much?
How long are you fermenting?

A tsp. About 10 minutes left in the boil.

Typically I ferment for 2 weeks in primary and 1 week in secondary for ales.

Lagers are about 3 weeks in primary and 3-6 months lagering in a secondary.

 

[TNGabe]

If neither lagering nor gelatin are giving you a clear beer, than you should look at your process. I'd like to be able to give you specific advice, but without knowing the particulars of your process, I have no ideas.

 

[tagz]

Look at your boil. Are you getting a good hot/cold break?

 

[archer75]

Well let's see if I can adequately cover my process.

Before starting everything is soaked or sprayed with a starsan solution. I fill the blichmann mash tun with the appropriate amount of water(everything is calculated via beersmith). And start heating the water. I'm using a blichmann burner.

When it gets up to temp I had rice hulls and start it circulating via the pump and let it go for a bit to ensure there's no air in the lines. All my lines are high temp silicon tubing and I have camlocks on everything.

I slowly dump the grains in the mash tun and then stir with a mash paddle to ensure everything is mixed thoroughly and there's no clumps.

I take temp readings with a digital thermometer that i've tested as best I can to ensure it's accurate.

During the mash I occasionally fire up the burner when the temp drops too much. I only use a very small flame as I don't want to chance any scorching and patiently wait for it to coast up to the correct mash temp.

I have another pot and burner that I heat up the sparge water in. To about 170f.

When mash is complete I turn the burner on and get it up to 168 for mash out. The pump is recirculating the entire time.

I hold 168 for about 10 minutes. After that I connect the recirc line to the boil kettle and connect a line from the HLT to the mash tun for sparging. I turn the pump back on and adjust the ball valves on the pump and HLT to maintain about 1" of water on top of the grain bed. I run the sparge very slowly.

The boil kettle is also on a blichmann burner and I have it heating up during while it's collecting the wort from the mash tun. I do also have a bazooka screen in the kettle.
When i've collected the wort I need I turn up the heat to begin boiling. I always seem to get a large hot break. I have a 15 gallon aluminum pot and have had that hot break pour right out the top. So I watch it carefully now.

During the boil I clean out the mash/tun and lines I used. Add the hop additions as needed and wait. Irish moss i've put in, in the last 10 minutes.

When it's done I connect a line from the kettle to a pump, then to a plate chiller and finally to a glass carboy.

After the carboy is full I inject pure oxygen via a stainless diffuser stone. Then I pitch the yeast from the starter I made and attach airlock.

Fermenter sits in a closet in the house and I maintain my house at about 68 degrees. I can heat or cool the house to maintain a good temp. If the beer gets too warm during fermentation i'll put some ice packs around it and it gets the temp down where I need it.

Lagers go into a chest freezer with a temp controller.

About two weeks later I use an autosiphon and transfer to a secondary carboy and do my best to avoid getting any trub into it.

I take measurements all along the way with a refractometer. My gravities are almost always dead on.

On my last batch(a scottish ale) I used a plastic connical I have. After about two weeks I would drain the trub out the bottom port. A few days of doing that and I added the geletin to it. A few days later I kegged it. It's carbing now but it's far from clear.

I think that about sums it up.

 

[Yooper]

How's your cold break? Get a lot? You should.

Instead of Irish moss, I'd suggest trying whirlfloc. It's the same thing, sort of, but whirlfloc amazed me the first time I used it. I used to get some cold break, but not like the first time I used whirlfloc and chilled quickly. It was a HUGE amount compared to what I was used to.

Next question- since you're recirculating, I assume your wort is absolutely clear going into the kettle? Mine is. If yours isn't, I wonder if you're getting full conversion and having a starch haze issue. Have you tested for conversion, if the wort isn't clear?

 

[archer75]

How's your cold break? Get a lot? You should.

Instead of Irish moss, I'd suggest trying whirlfloc. It's the same thing, sort of, but whirlfloc amazed me the first time I used it. I used to get some cold break, but not like the first time I used whirlfloc and chilled quickly. It was a HUGE amount compared to what I was used to.

Next question- since you're recirculating, I assume your wort is absolutely clear going into the kettle? Mine is. If yours isn't, I wonder if you're getting full conversion and having a starch haze issue. Have you tested for conversion, if the wort isn't clear?

I get a lot of cold break but it's in the fermenter as I chill with a plate chiller and not an immersion chiller.
However prior to getting the plate chiller I had an immersion chiller but my beers were still cloudy.
I do make larger batches as I plan to leave a bit in the boil kettle. So there is a good amount of cold break left behind. But I know some is still getting into the fermenter.

The wort is clear going into the kettle from the mash tun. I wish it looked that good in the finished product!

 

[motleybrew]

I mash/ferment in a plastic bucket, boil in a 20q stovetop stockpot, and everything is homemade (no false bottom professional jobber, RIMS, whatever...). I add 1 tsp. of Irish moss at 15 min. left, and I was amazed at the difference in clarity from before I used it. When I cool, I place the whole kettle in the bath tub and gently stir the wort while sloshing the bath water in the opposite direction; gets ~4 gal. down to pitching temp. in ~40 min.

I do strain the wort with a mesh bag when pouring from the stockpot into the fermenter.

Oh, and I don't lager. Only used ale yeasts since I have no ferm. temp. control.

 

[Yooper]

I get a lot of cold break but it's in the fermenter as I chill with a plate chiller and not an immersion chiller.
However prior to getting the plate chiller I had an immersion chiller but my beers were still cloudy.
I do make larger batches as I plan to leave a bit in the boil kettle. So there is a good amount of cold break left behind. But I know some is still getting into the fermenter.

The wort is clear going into the kettle from the mash tun. I wish it looked that good in the finished product!

I have a CFC, so the cold break goes into my fermenter too. No worries, there.

If the wort is clear out of the MLT, is it clear going into the fermenter?

 

[archer75]

I have a CFC, so the cold break goes into my fermenter too. No worries, there.

If the wort is clear out of the MLT, is it clear going into the fermenter?

No, not into the fermenter. It's pretty foggy in there.

 

[Yooper]

No, not into the fermenter. It's pretty foggy in there.

How about when you take a sample, and let it sit so that the cold break settles out? When I take a sample out of the fermenter, but then let it sit a couple of minutes and the cold break settles to the bottom, the wort is clear.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

How wide is the gap on the mill that you are using to crush your grain?

 

[BigFloyd]

How's your cold break? Get a lot? You should.

Instead of Irish moss, I'd suggest trying whirlfloc. It's the same thing, sort of, but whirlfloc amazed me the first time I used it. I used to get some cold break, but not like the first time I used whirlfloc and chilled quickly. It was a HUGE amount compared to what I was used to.

Next question- since you're recirculating, I assume your wort is absolutely clear going into the kettle? Mine is. If yours isn't, I wonder if you're getting full conversion and having a starch haze issue. Have you tested for conversion, if the wort isn't clear?

+1 on Whirlfloc. I have a packet of Irish moss that has sat unused since the first time I tried 1/2 a Whirlfloc tab.

I didn't see the OP mention a post-chill rest before transferring to the fermenter. If you cover the kettle and let it sit still 15-20 minutes, the gunk will slowly fall out of suspension and to the bottom. Then it's just a matter of transferring w/o disturbing it.

How long and at what temp do you cold crash? Mine tend to go 5-7 days at 35-36*F and it's very clear going into the keg.

 

[archer75]

How wide is the gap on the mill that you are using to crush your grain?

No idea. It's done at the homebrew shop. I've asked them and it seems correct. They are using some crazy 7 roller mill setup and supply several nano breweries in the area.

 

[archer75]

I didn't see the OP mention a post-chill rest before transferring to the fermenter. If you cover the kettle and let it sit still 15-20 minutes, the gunk will slowly fall out of suspension and to the bottom. Then it's just a matter of transferring w/o disturbing it.

How long and at what temp do you cold crash? Mine tend to go 5-7 days at 35-36*F and it's very clear going into the keg.

There really is no post chill rest as it doesn't chill until it passed through the plate chiller into the fermenter.
I guess I could leave the hot wort sitting in the boil kettle for a period of time before pumping it through the chiller. I haven't done that yet as I don't like to let it set. I'm paranoid about infections. But I could give it a go.

When I have cold crashed i've given it a week but it hasn't seemed to help. So it's not something I do often.

 

[BigFloyd]

There really is no post chill rest as it doesn't chill until it passed through the plate chiller into the fermenter.
I guess I could leave the hot wort sitting in the boil kettle for a period of time before pumping it through the chiller. I haven't done that yet as I don't like to let it set. I'm paranoid about infections. But I could give it a go.

It sounds like you are doing a one-pass through the plate chiller and into the fermenter vs. recirculation back into the kettle (which I do).

If that's the case, allowing the hot wort a chance to settle 15-20 minutes prior to running it through the chiller and into the bucket/carboy will give the suspended gunk a chance to drop out and not get carried into the fermenter. Keep the kettle covered during that time, either with a lid or foil that you've sanitized by spraying with StarSan. I don't believe that the practice increases your risk of infection.

 

[archer75]

It sounds like you are doing a one-pass through the plate chiller and into the fermenter vs. recirculation back into the kettle (which I do).

If that's the case, allowing the hot wort a chance to settle 15-20 minutes prior to running it through the chiller and into the bucket/carboy will give the suspended gunk a chance to drop out and not get carried into the fermenter. Keep the kettle covered during that time, either with a lid or foil that you've sanitized by spraying with StarSan. I don't believe that the practice increases your risk of infection.

Yes, one pass. It cools it in one pass so I haven't felt the need to recirculate it back.

I'll let it settle next time. I'm making a couple of lagers in the next week or so.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, one pass. It cools it in one pass so I haven't felt the need to recirculate it back.

I'll let it settle next time. I'm making a couple of lagers in the next week or so.

I don't think that's the reason for the cloudiness. All of my cold break ends up in the fermenter (I have a CFC) but it's not like the break material resuspends once it's out.

 

[sddanc]

your pH might be too high.

also, find a 100mL graduated cylinder and fill it with wort coming out of the heat exchanger. if your kettle finings are at an optimal dosage rate, you should see a minimum of 10mL of break at the bottom after an overnight in the refrigerator.

or employ a short protein rest

 

[TNGabe]

your pH might be too high.

also, find a 100mL graduated cylinder and fill it with wort coming out of the heat exchanger. if your kettle finings are at an optimal dosage rate, you should see a minimum of 10mL of break at the bottom after an overnight in the refrigerator.

or employ a short protein rest

Can you exapnd on the correlation between pH and clarity?

EDIT: Found this on the googles:

'A wort pH of 5 will require almost twice the amount of floc (irish moss) as the same wort at a pH of 5.4.' from BYO Clarity Tips from the Pros.

And this : Brewer's Supply Group Wort & Beer Clarification Manual

 

[Yooper]

Can you exapnd on the correlation between pH and clarity?

EDIT: Found this on the googles:

'A wort pH of 5 will require almost twice the amount of floc (irish moss) as the same wort at a pH of 5.4.' from BYO Clarity Tips from the Pros.

And this : Brewer's Supply Group Wort & Beer Clarification Manual

I don't check kettle pH but many serious brewers do. I do check mash pH and sparge pH.

A really good mash pH will be 5.4-5.6 (measurements taken at room temperature). I'm unsure of the optimum kettle pH, but I'm sure the geeks in the Brew Science area could be of great help in that area.

 

[archer75]

Can someone recommend some good PH strips? Or a digital PH meter that won't break the bank?