how to crank out fast beers._

[hunmojo]

Hello all. I have been wonder about why my beers take so long to mature. and stay too sour...

My biggest problem is that my beers taste very sour!

I bottle my beers....

I keep hearing people say 3 weeks at 70...... and I have seen the videos of the guy trying beers at different stages of the priming. and even drinking them, so they dont go to waste.

My concern is that even after 4 weeks my simple american wheat beer is carbed up fine but its too sour. i cant drink it....let alone drink some before 3 weeks. and that goes for all of my beers.

why are my beers so sour. is this normal. they do get better with time, but a lot of time....I dont understand how people can drink their beers in about a month.

I am a bit concerned with my priming temperatures now that summer is here, I have had a case of beer sitting at 71 for about 3 weeks and then the heat wave hit...and they are now at 79, because I cant put them in the fridge.... are these beers done for it..... is this why they dont get rid of the sour taste.

any suggestions guys..

 

[BrewerBear]

That temp does not hurt beer in the bottles, my beer is stored upstairs and we had I think in excess of 30 days over 100 last summer. As far as the sour goes could you give a little more detail on what it actually taste like. What temps do you ferment at?

 

[tektonjp]

Sour taste seems like it should be an indicator of infection, which has nothing to do with length of fermentation. What is your process from boil onwards? What is your fermentation vessel? What are you doing for sanitation? How are you bottling? Lots of variables.
But once a beer is sour, it won't get better. Is it truly sour? Have other brewers tasted it? Is it just your taste buds?
And yes, warm temps will damage beer, but won't make it sour.

 

[KingKlong]

my beers are usually ready 2 weeks after bottling using priming sugar.

as tektonjp said, there are many things that could make your beer sour.

 

[SoonerDoc]

They definitely shouldn't sour like that. I have had some bigger beers bottled for years and they taste fine.

 

[pcollins]

I would be looking much earlier in your process if you're having sour issues. Look at fermentation conditions: temps, duration, sanitation.

For troubleshooting purposes go backwards step by step from the problem. Sample your beer at bottling time. If it's sour then, it's not going to get better and it's indicating a problem prior to bottle conditioning time. If you do transfer to secondary, taste your beer then. If it's fine then look to your conditions in secondary. If it's sour then you know it's happening in primary.

Sour sounds like an infection to me. I'd be double checking my cleaning and sanitizing of all things coming in contact with the beer post boil: carboys, buckets, lines, bottles, caps, etc. But again, with basic troubleshooting you can help to eliminate where you're checking. If it's sour going into the bottles then you know it's not likely caps and bottles, it's before that.

Let us know what you find or provide a few more details and maybe one of us can help a bit more.

 

[CBelli]

I'd also look into your cooling time... the longer exposure of wart to air when it is below 180 degrees the higher risk for infection prior to pitching yeast.

 

[Aschecte]

could you give us a run down of your sanitization steps from beginning to end. the one thing noone has mentioned is that a wheat beer should be slightly sour as the wheat naturally will have this attribute as well as a wheat yeast forming sulfur compunds and possibly DMS from pilsner malt often used with wheat beers. All this said it still sounds like a lacto or pedio infection so lets here how you clean and sanitize.

 

[homebrewdad]

Yep, look at the basics - fermentation temps, cooling time, yeast pitch rates. You ought to be able to drink most beers four weeks after bottling. They might still get better with time, but sour shouldn't be there.

 

[unionrdr]

Slightly sour wheat beers? Wheat beers are organiclly sweet,not sour. Just a natural sweetness.

 

[bk0]

Sanitize your bottles!

 

[Aschecte]

Slightly sour wheat beers? Wheat beers are organiclly sweet,not sour. Just a natural sweetness.

Yes sour "tart" that comes from both papazian and Palmer books as well as a specific question I asked whitelabs rgatding their wit strain. I was picking up a mild tartness from a wit and they said that wheat has a mild sour tartness that is charecteristic of wheat. When I say sour I don't mean lambic sour I mean mild like almost not there mild.

 

[Dev110]

I agree with BK. Sanitize the bottles.

I had the same problem - it was so sour, it tasted like vinegar. Green Apples, even. Not the whole batch, just a bottle here and there.

 

[looneybomber]

When you say "sour" could you mean "bitter" from the hops in the fresh beer?

 

[iskuse]

I don't think I have ever had a wheat i would describe as "sour"

 

[kpr121]

I think the most important questions here are:

What temperature are you primary fermenting at?

How much yeast are you pitching?

A lot of people with untrained tastebuds will relate many different off flavors incorrectly (I am one of these people myself). What you are calling ‘sour’ may well be some other off-flavor due to not ideal fermenting temperature or inadequate yeast pitching rates.

 

[unionrdr]

My thoughts as well. Never had even a mild sour wheat beer. I think the sour apple to sour like Belgian or acetobacter sour from infection or high ferment temps.

 

[Aschecte]

Wow I'm really sorry I didn't mean to derail the thread by mentioning sour and wheat. I strongly feel this is a sanitization issue as I stated in my original post.

 

[hunmojo]

WOW im really sorry guys , but I just got a day off and im responding. Its really nice to see people wanting to help out. ok here goes.

My general process....

I make small batches of about 15L over the stove full boil. the types of beers iv made were wheats, cream, English ales and one milk stout. recently I have purchased Jamils book and iv been trying those recipes out.

I use plastic buckets for fermentation. I try to pay attention to sanitation. I do however have been adding lactic acid to my water when im mashing. to lower the ph a bit. but we are talking about maybe 10 ml max. for20L pre boil.

The weird thing is that one of the very first beer iv made was the cream of three crops.... cream and again that was very sour like iv added a whole lemon in the beer, and as time went by after finally 3.5 months Iv had a few bottles left they were yummy no sourness. Thats why its weird if its is infection because why would it eventually go away. Ok rght now the beers that Iv been getting ready have been fermenting like this.

1-2 weeks in plastic buckets at 19C. wheat and cream ale for example.
then I transfer them to bottling, usually before bottling i throw them in the fridge over night... then I let the beer come back up to fermentation temp about 17c when I actually bottle it. I use pharmacy grade glucose. I put some in a little cup with water and boil it...however iv had added it to my beer when it wasn't cooled down all that much. maybe thats a problem. Then I store i around 72F.

recent beers of mine have been spending time about 2.5 weeks at around 71'72. and then a heat wave came and the temperature started rising to 75'80. iv thrown some beers in the fridge and again about a week ago I could not swallow my wheat beer, but now I just tried one again that been in the fridge for about 4 days and its a world of difference. still a tiny bit sour.

what is weird is that YES all of my beers have started out sour like, but they all have turned out fine after a long time waiting.... Like my cream of three crops..... sooo sour for almost 2'3 months, and then it became good.

I guess it would be really helpfull if someone could suggest a standard procedure for me to prime and store my beers. maybe thats the problem im having. .

does priming temp make a difference or is itpretty flexible around 70. +-... and should I thrown my beer in the fridge right away after the 3 weeks or whenever I feel like drinking one....

I do remember that most of my beers taste great when I sample one from the hydro readings. after mashing.... and then a bit sour after fermentation is done....however my last one was great after fermenttion at bottling time without the co2....so I will be interested to see if its also sour 2 weeks into priming.........

 

[Brewsncrabs]

I think you've answered every question posed to you except what your fermentation temps are. Not your bottling temps. Your fermentation temps.

 

[Brewsncrabs]

Oops missed it - 19c=66f. Is that air temp or beer temp? If its air temp your beer temp could be well over 70f which may not be good.

 

[bullinachinashop]

First thing I'd do is change out the buckets, both primary and bottling. Then I'd soak all my other gear in a bleach water solution. Get new siphon hoses.
That should take care of any sanitation issues. Also try a different sanitizer. Star San is great.

Next, brew up a batch with bottled spring water and don't add any acid to it.

I'm thinking it may be a water issue, but an assult on your equipment will eliminate one variable.

There is no reason you can't be drinking a quality homebrew in 3 weeks.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Bull

 

[hunmojo]

ok I have jsut tried my most recent beer that has been in fermentation for about 2 weeks and only one week in priming at 22C. and its carbed up 60 % i would say, and it tastes great...... no sourness. I would drink it as is..... SOOOO the big surprise I think is that i did not add but maybe 2 ml of lactic acid to my sparge water to bring that ph down a bit. I think it might be my lactic acid additions that have been doing this to my beers.

I BIAB BY THE wAY
could you guys help.. with input on this. I all grain small batches, and I usually cut my water 50/50 with exchanged water from the gas station with my tap water. its pretty hard. then I would add lactic acid to bring ph to 5.4 or so.. then add grain and mash.....

however this last beer what I did was just cut my tap with ion exchanged water 50/50 without the addition of lactic acid.... I only added about 2ml of lactic to my sparge water, so that im not sparging with ph 7.5 water... but should I even do this or can I just sparge with the 50/50 mix no problem regardless of what ph that is. My mash ph with just 50/50 mix is always on target 5.2 around. so does my sparge water ph mater.???? maybe this is my problem .....its the lactic acid iv been adding... but then again its weird that it goes away in my beer after a while.....

 

[hunmojo]

thanks guys i will deff try and use all new equipment to see if that the problem... but i have never had gushers..... isnt that also the sign of infection....or by not having any wouldnt that tell me its not infected...

by the way for my 12-15L batch i add one dry yeast packet...

 

[bullinachinashop]

thanks guys i will deff try and use all new equipment to see if that the problem... but i have never had gushers..... isnt that also the sign of infection....or by not having any wouldnt that tell me its not infected...

by the way for my 12-15L batch i add one dry yeast packet...

A lacto infection may not cause gushers and is nearly impossible to get rid of.

I think it's a water issue.

Try using the ezwatercalulator speadsheet to adjust your water profile. If I understand you, you're dropping your water without considering the grains and most likley adding to much acid. I find that acid additions are only needed on lighter style beers and in small amounts.

Good luck,

Bull

 

[Pie_Man]

I would begin by using a brewing water spreadsheet like ezwater, or bru'n water. You need to know about your base water's mineral content and alkalinity; I wouldn't use acid or salt additions haphazardly, they can ruin your beer in the wrong quantities. I typically use 2-3ml of lactic acid for a 5 gal (about 19 liter) batch. It sounds like excess lactic is your culprit.
I'd also clean and sanitize your equipment.

 

[phenry]

What % lactic acid? 10mL sounds like it would be waaaay too much, I rarely use any in my mash water and typically less than 2mL in my sparge water.

 

[pcollins]

My water advice is to never mess with it until you determine whether you can brew decent water with what you have. I have decent brewing water that comes out of my tap with no need to mess with the chemistry. Could I mess with it and make my beer better? Possibly, yes, but it works just fine as is.

I wouldn't assume that you need to tinker with your water until you brew with it untinkered. Hard water is not bad water.

 

[Yooper]

What % lactic acid? 10mL sounds like it would be waaaay too much, I rarely use any in my mash water and typically less than 2mL in my sparge water.

I use 5 ml of lactic acid in 6 gallons of sparge water to reduce my very high alkalinity. 10 ml in the mash can cause a distinct sour taste. I'd definitely stop acidifying my mash with the lactic acid at this point.

I'd make a new batch with reverse osmosis water (only) and no lactic acid. I'd buy one new bucket and lid, to rule out infection issues. If that beer comes out well, then it's obvious as to the cause. If this beer comes out sour as well, then it'd be time to bleach bomb the brewery and blame a rogue wild yeast or bacteria. I really think this is a pH issue, from the little bit I can guess about the water. The lactic acid would be the prime suspect.

Edit- I just "caught" this line:

by the way for my 12-15L batch i add one dry yeast packet...

So you're doing 12L batches? That means using 10 ml lactic acid (assuming 88% lactic acid) at an incredibly high amount, then. I assume in a 12L batch that the mash that you'd be using about 6 pounds of grain and 9 quarts of water? (or for BIAB more water) That means the mash pH would be LOW. Very very low.

I could be misunderstanding something, so if I am, I apologize. But I think this is the issue.

This begs the question- why? Why 10 ml of lactic acid in anything except a Berliner Weiss? What sort of water chemistry do you have and how do you test the pH of the mash?

 

[jbaysurfer]

Yooper is so full of good information! :rockin:

 

[Yooper]

Yooper is so full of good information! :rockin:

I'm full something............I'm not sure it's information.

One thing I just remembered! When I first decided to acidify my sparge water a bit, I didn't have a good pH meter. AJ deLange suggested doing a poor man's test to see how much lactic acid to use.

I put 5 gallons of water in a bucket and added 1 ml at a time to it. I tasted it. I got up to 5 ml before I tasted any twang at all. That meant that 5 ml was under the flavor threshold so that's what I used and calculated it using spreadsheets (I knew my water profile) to be "ok".

I would suggest something similar to the OP. Consider the amount of mash water you are adding 10ml of lactic acid to. And divide in half (or thirds or whatever), divide the lactic acid by the same amount, and taste that. If it tastes sour, like your beer, and it's the same type of sour, then you've nailed the issue. The fix then is simply to stop doing that.

 

[hunmojo]

Im starting to believe that its my water issue here.

my actual process is this... I biab. I have a 20 L stock pot. Which gives me about around 13L after boil. I usually have something like 9L of water to mash with and another 8 or so to sparge my bag with.. I get 80% eff this way. I would take my tap water and run it through a britta filter once.... then I would take the filtered tap water and cut it 50/50 with ion'exchanged bottled water from the gas station. (this is where my process has changed the salt 2 bathes).... I would add then lactic acid till my mash water dropped to 5.4. NOW however I have just left the mash water as is letting the grains drop my ph to proper range.... when I tested the mash the mash ph was right at 5.2. I did still add about 2ml of lactic to my 8 liters of sparge water...

I didnt use to use ion exchanged water to cut my tap water i just filtered more times with the britta, and I do remmember that thats when I used more lactic acid.... and to tell you the trouth I just couldnt wait any longer and from my last to batches with ion water, I tried a cream alre 2.5 weeks into priming, and an english pale that is one week into priming. and they are both grea. heck the english tastes better than the cream. So i think it was my lactic acid adition.

what do you guys suggest for water that looks like this....

arsenic .002-.003
calcium 70
K .5
magnesium 18
Na 14
sulfate 50
HCO3 310

 

[Yooper]

That's really high Hco3, so I'd use more RO water (maybe all RO water since you have some arsenic in there as well). Instead of 50/50, maybe try one batch of all RO water.

I think having your mash water at 5.4 meant that your mash pH would have been very low and that 10 ml of lactic acid in 9l water is where a sour flavor came from.

How are you testing pH? With a meter at room temperature?

 

[hunmojo]

yes. I have a digital ph meter, and i usually test with strips as well. I am going to use i think 50/50 ro with bottled water from the store to see how that works out. I just thought that i could just use a filter and get away with using my tap water...... but you dont even need tests to know that the tap water here in Budapest is pretty bad.... iv had a water heater internal heating element get eaten away inside in a year........

 

[thejaxx]

hunmojo,

I'm down in Tukwila and looked at your recent water report, located at http://www.edmondswa.gov/images/COE.../Water_Utility/pdf/Water_Quality_Bro_2012.pdf

Its pretty identical to me down here. In the few batches i've done, i've used half tap and half spring from the bottled water company and have had good results.

I'm still pretty new and not all grain yet, but we could compare notes and you can try one of my last batch which has been conditioning now for 3 weeks.