how often should you add yeast nutrient?

[rockytop714]

should you add it throughout the fermentation, or maybe just when you transfer to the secondary... maybe not at all? haha... I just wanted to see if it would be necessary. I added 1/2 tsp to a gallon of cider before pitching the yeast.

 

[aiptasia]

I don't really use it as our tap water has a pretty good mix of minerals and nutrients already in it. Our local microbreweries never use it and i've never had an issue with stalled yeasts. However, if I was using 100% distilled water, i'd probably use it.

 

[GinKings]

I don't really use it as our tap water has a pretty good mix of minerals and nutrients already in it. Our local microbreweries never use it and i've never had an issue with stalled yeasts. However, if I was using 100% distilled water, i'd probably use it.

I think somebody thinks they are in a beer thread. Luckily, they didn't suggest boiling for an hour.

I wouldn't say nutrients are required in cider, but I'd consider them a good idea during the first third of fermentation. You want to keep the yeast happy and healthy. Nutrients are not normally added in the later stages of fermentation or in secondary. Yeast need the nutrients before, and during fermentation, not after they've done their job.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

should you add it throughout the fermentation, or maybe just when you transfer to the secondary... maybe not at all? haha... I just wanted to see if it would be necessary. I added 1/2 tsp to a gallon of cider before pitching the yeast.

The short answer is, yup ... it's good to add ... tho not throughout the entire ferment.

In general, nutrients in cider depends on the yeast you use ... what you want it to do (such as if you want the ferment to stall before all the sugar is used) ... and the intended temperature and duration of the ferment.

The most simplistic version is ... all the nutrients should be added within the first 1/3 of the ferment ... and they should be broken up into doses during that time.
But this is still a bit of an oversimplification. The right way is as follows.

First, a serious consideration to adding the nutrients at the beginning is whether there are likely to be wild yeasts/spoilage organisms present as well.
This is the case with fresh fruit or fresh unpasteurized juice or cider. SO, in this case you would *not* add your balanced nutrient (fermaid or energizer etc ... which is the product you would normally add at that time) directly into the fresh apple cider prior to pitching the yeast ... yeast spoilage organisms will get ahold of the nutrient while your proper yeast is still in the lag phase and make serious hay with it ... leaving none for your proper yeast once it gets out of lag. Neither fermaid nor DAP.

You could avoid this in a number of ways ...
use pasteurized apple cider or juice.
treat your fruit/apples/must/fresh cider with K-meta prior to use
OR you can get the yeast past its lag phase by using a starter that has had *part of* the fermax dose added to it, made of store bought pasteurized apple juice or pasteurized cider, and your yeast. Then, by the time you add it to the main must with the rest of the initial fermax/fermaid/energizer dose, your yeast is already into the growth phase and rockin and rollin.

The actual additions ...
Keeping in mind my comment above about wild yeasts etc ... the nutrient additions in any case would be ... fermax/fermaid/energizer during the lag phase (so that is, prior to pitching) ... DAP during the growth phase (the growth phase is when the yeast just gets going and bubbling well) ... and again, something like Fermaid/energizer when your sugar has been 1/3 depleted ... but nothing after that.

Note that cider gets to the 1/3 sugar-used point quick as it is not as high a brix as wine.

How much?
Generally about 1 gram of fermaid per gallon ... then for the DAP addition about 2 grams per gallon ... and then about .8 gram of fermaid again for that final addition. These measures are approximate and you can just follow the amount suggested in the directions for the brand of products you are using.

Other technical blather too ... but I’ll leave it at that.
Nothing exceeds like excess ... eh?

But as I say ... the simplest version of adding nutrients to cider is to use pasteurized cider ... and add whatever nutrients/DAP etc that you have on-hand, in stages, and get all of it in before 1/3 of the way thru the sugar being used up.

 

[rockytop714]

thanks for all the information!

So far, my process has been as follows: I started with one gallon of unpasteurized cider from a local orchard. put that in a sanitized/covered bucket with one fully-dissolved campden tablet and 1/2 tsp of pectic enzyme, then allowed to stand for 24 hrs. In that time, I did a small yeast starter with Lalvin champagne yeast in a boiled solution of (around) 400-500 ml of RO water, local honey, and demerara sugar. After 24 hrs, I pitched the yeast along with a 1/2 tsp of Crosby & Baker yeast energizer.

the first 5 days, I had rapid fermentation. I never bothered to time it, but I was getting a bubble in the airlock every few seconds. in the last day or two, it has slowed down substantially and, honestly, I haven't seen a bubble in quite a while. So I'm thinking that the fermentation process may have happened a little too quickly... thoughts?

at any rate, due to the lag, I had planned to rack it into a secondary tonight (tonight will be a full week... yes, I know, most things I've read have said anywhere from 2-6 weeks for primary fermentation. I welcome suggestions on this, as well.), and had considered adding another 1/2 tsp of the energizer to keep things going.

this is mainly an experiment, for right now. So I'm not expecting to be bottling myself a mini-batch of Strongbow, but I'm hoping that it's at least drinkable haha...

any input or suggestions, based on this, are appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[LeBreton]

After talking to the very knowledgeable folks at Scott labs, the same folks who brought you Nottingham and EC-1118, I became a big fan of sequential nutrient addition. They suggest adding about half the total nutrients shortly after the lag phase of yeast growth. Too much nutrient early on can cause yeast mutations, so wait for a steady fermentation to take hold. Then add the next half a little after midway. Avoid adding any within the last 3-4 brix as it may not be fully used up an if enough remains it can develop a noticeable flavor of DAP.

That being said, local conditions vary greatly. This works well for NY apples, where nutrients are helpful since the soil is pretty much entirely clay with relatively little organic matter when compared to other places. Many people do not use nutrients at all and make delicious ciders.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

They suggest adding about half the total nutrients shortly after the lag phase of yeast growth. Too much nutrient early on can cause yeast mutations, so wait for a steady fermentation to take hold. Then add the next half a little after midway.

That is interesting about the mutations, LeBreton.
Your info comes from the folks at Scott labs ... my info comes from Dr. Clayton Cone the yeast guru at Lallemand/Lalvin. Battle of the labs ;-)

In any regard, I would beg to differ ... Free amino nitrogen (FAN) and amino acids *are* particularly important during the lag phase.
While adding nutrients for this purpose is (as I understand it) something that brewers don't have to be too concerned about because their mash naturally produces FAN during the process and/or has it already from the malt ... for vintners and cidermakers nitrogen at that phase is supplemented.

The salient part of your phrase "too much nutrient early on" are the words "too much" ... meaning more than an appropriate amount.
It think it would be overdone to interpret that to mean to actually "wait for a steady fermentation" before adding any nitrogen though. (not that it would be the end of the world mind you)

I suspect though that for most home fermenting activities it is not a make-or-break issue ... but still good to know the technical detail behind things. Thanx for the input

I hope to poke around a bit more sometime and read up on the topic ... some other time tho ... I already spend more time than I should reading, writing and fermenting <sigh>

 

[LeBreton]

Scott labs represents Lallemand & co here in the states, you'd think they would be more consistent

I think you are absolutely correct about the importance of nitrogen in the lag phase, because it is key. I should have made myself more clear. As I understand in, adding 'yeast nutrient' in significant quantities during the growth period of your yeast colony is often adding too much, too soon, especially when many commercial yeast nutrients are targeted at re-starting stuck fermentations and are often nitrogen in the form of ammonia which it quickly absorbed by the yeasts. Lighter amounts of slowly absorbed amino nitrogen blended with other, more growth oriented yeast supplements, such as husks, will definitely help achieve a healthy population. Commercially, these are readily labeled as 'yeast starter nutrients' or the like. Unfortunately, many homebrew oriented products often have little to no practical information on the packaging.

Looks like we're mostly in agreement, especially on the 'make or break' part. So many good ways to make cider, with each being another excuse to do some cider science!