How fast can you brew?

[Tazzster]

Hey beer gurus!

I was thinking about the length of my brew time the other day and was wondering what I could do to make it shorter. I did some internet searching and found that I wall already doing pretty well with my BIAB by getting done usually in 3.5 to 4 hours.

But I started thinking about things I could do to make it shorter. A bigger burner would be a huge plus, but I will have to wait for Santa to drop that off. Don't let me down Santa!

But this got me thinking about other parts of the process. I see many people on here arguing that a shorter mash time would work. I usually do an hour and was thinking of dropping it down to 30 minutes.

Then I started thinking about boil time. Is there anything sacred about a 1 hour boil? Could you do it in 30? I think if you adjusted the hops right you could still achieve the flavors you wanted.

Has anyone tried this?

Thanks!

 

[dkevinb]

I did a 5-gallon BIAB batch yesterday in 4 hours from lighting the burner to done with cleanup, and that's about as fast as I've done it. I'd be leery about shortening the boil. Hop isomerization isn't the only thing going on. At the very least you want to boil off the DMS precursors.

Several people here claim to be able to mash in amazingly short times. I still do an hour mash.

My biggest time saver is getting everything ready to go the night before, including water in the kettle sitting on the burner. I cover the whole thing (on my patio) with a garbage bag. First thing in the morning I remove the bag, light the burner, and start the coffee maker.

Using a pond pump to recirculate ice water through my IWC helps shorten the chilling time, too, as does continuously stirring while chilling.

 

[chezhed]

I have never tried reducing the actual "value added" time....work on the other areas has been my method.
I did an 11 gallon brew yesterday, all grain, start to finish in 5-1/2 hours. Now that includes having done nothing to putting everything away, clean and fermenters going. It was a 75 minute mash and a 75 minute boil. The other 2-1/2 hours are prep, heating, sparging and cooling and clean up. I have a three tier gravity fed stand with two burners that I made that really helps and a Therminator for chilling which greatly reduces that time. I also have a sink right by me in the garage which really helps with cleanup. I do one bit of prep....I get RO water and ice the night before....and add any chemicals for water directly.

So, here goes...maybe you can find activities or ideas that help

Roll out stand from garage....select mash tun and boil kettle to use. Connect burners to LP tank. Pump 14 gal H2O into 15 gal HLT and fire up propane burner (Banjo). While water heats, measure and grind grain in buckets (yesterday was 34.5 lbs). Wash out mash tun. Measure mash tun and grain temp and calculate strike temp. While water gets to temp, I connect everything else on stand, therminator to pot, cold water lines to therminator (I use a big plastic tub with a sump pump for ice water to therminator since it was 80F yesterday and recycle the water back to the tub). Rehydrate yeast. By now water is to strike temp and I mash in.....I continually mash in...as water increases, I add some more grain so I am constantly stirring mash in water in a 70 qt Coleman cooler with a bazooka tube. My HLT has a sight glass so I can monitor the flow vs my grain add rate. Close up mash tun. Add remaining H2O if necessary to HLT for sparge....yesterday required 3 more gallons.
Sanitize lines and therminator. I do this by adding Starsan solution to boil kettle and running thru lines and therminator into fermenters (Better bottles) and set aside fermenters with solution in them. Measure hops out...yesterday's brew was simple...only two additions so I used two bags, one with whirlfloc in the bag. Prepare blowoffs. At midpoint of mash, I stir and measure temp. Heat sparge water to 168F. At this point I gather up all cleaning stuff and have it ready along with any trash collecting items. Vorlauf and sparge....slowly. 45 minutes yesterday but this gets me in the 78-80% efficiency range I'm convinced. Turn on boil burner (Blichman.....super efficient) as soon as 1/2 inch of wort is in kettle. Turn on heat stick once it is covered. By the time 13.5 gallons have entered kettle, I'm about to boil. Let any remaining wort from mash tun drain out into a pot for the next 30 minutes. Monitor boil to prevent boil over and begin cleanup of HLT and mash tun. I place a large garbage bag over the mash tun and dump in the grain and it either goes to a kid for a 4H animal or the trash...Typically while the boil goes on I have cleaned and put away the HLT and the Mash tun and associated hoses. Time to sit and R-E-L-A-X
Whirlpool at end of boil and turn on ice water pump....open pot valve and drain into fermenter 1....when ready to fill #2, I then add a does of O2 to #1 and move into chamber. Then O2 #2 and into chamber. Pitch yeast. Wash up boil kettle and therminator at sink and put everything away. 7:30 AM to 1 PM.
The biggest reductions in time I have made are in getting water to strike temp, wort to boil and getting to pitch temps. The heat stick is one of the best things I've got, the therminator is the best and the blichman burner is third. The gravity stand eliminates all "work."

 

[z-bob]

I did a 3 gallon BIAB big beer a week ago; my first all-grain ever, and first brew session in at least 10 years. I set aside a whole day for it, but it only took 4 hours. An electric HLT helped tremendously (5 gallon bucket with a 5500W heating element)

I'm pretty sure I can get that down close to 3 hours once I know what I'm doing, but the mash and the boil take a while and I don't think it's a good idea to rush them. I don't have an electric boil kettle yet, and the stove is kind of slow to bring the hot wort to a boil. That's what limits me to about 4 gallon boils.

 

[dkevinb]

Just going through my procedures I get:

Heat strike water - 0:20
Mash - 1:00
Heat to boiling - 0:10
Boil - 1:00
Chill - 0:30

I'm at 3 hours without including things like dough-in, removing/sparging/squeezing the bag, transferring to the fermenter, pitching yeast, putting the fermenter into the swamp cooler, and cleanup.

I enjoy all of it except the cleanup, so if I could find a way to knock time off that I'd be all over it.

 

[brrman]

typically takes 4 hours for 5 or 10 gallon all grain batch on my eHerms. I once did three 10 gallon batches back to back in 10 hours - took quite a bit of multitasking (heating strike water/mashing while boiling prev batch) and I would not try it on a day I was feeling less than optimal.

 

[stpug]

I can only brew as fast as the recipe and process is designed to be brewed . The only time limit I put on myself is shorter than 8 hours, otherwise it's all fair game. Sometimes I design beers for a short brewday and other times I do beers that lead to a long brewday. It's all good in my book!

 

[Tazzster]

I enjoy all of it except the cleanup, so if I could find a way to knock time off that I'd be all over it.

I hate cleanup as well. I have been experimenting with being less anal about sanitation.

...gasp...

I know. Don't tell anyone. But I think hot water and soap go a long ways in my opinion. I suppose I will keep thinking that until I ruin a batch of beer.

*keeps fingers crossed*

 

[Codfishhead]

Hey beer gurus!

Is there anything sacred about a 1 hour boil? Could you do it in 30? I think if you adjusted the hops right you could still achieve the flavors you wanted.

No. Alot takes place in the boil. Time and heat are needed. You could adjust your hops by increasing them to get more bitters in less time but the taste would not be the same. IMO that is since I never tried to rush a good brew. To use less bitter hops you boil for 90 mins when the bitters max out.

First beer off my single tier system took me little over 6.5 hrs. I'm down to 4.5 after several batches. Can do 2 batches at the same time in 6 6.5 hrs now.

 

[Tazzster]

I'd be leery about shortening the boil. Hop isomerization isn't the only thing going on. At the very least you want to boil off the DMS precursors.

This is what I was looking for. Can you elaborate on this? And maybe explain it like you were talking to a 5 year old?

 

[Tazzster]

Can do 2 batches at the same time in 6 6.5 hrs now.

This is something my friend and I have been talking about - brewing at the same time. I would like to find a couple of brewers in the area and then meet up and brew on the same day... crank up the barbecue and kind of make a party of it.

 

[dkevinb]

This is what I was looking for. Can you elaborate on this? And maybe explain it like you were talking to a 5 year old?

The common saying is that boiling accomplishes "five -ations":

-sterilization - of the wort
-isomerization - of the hop oils
-caramelization - darkening the wort
-evaporation (to gravity, drive off volatiles, etc.) - Driving off DMS precursors happens here
-coagulation - of the proteins in the grain

DMS (dimethyl sulfide) is a sulfur compound that can be created during brewing. It gives beer a vegetable-type smell that many people associate with canned corn. Rolling Rock beer is famous for this smell. Unless you're a Rolling Rock fan you'd be better off avoiding it. The best way to avoid it is to boil vigorously with the lid off. How long? Depends on the grain, from what I understand.

The rest of the -ations don't necessarily take 60 minutes, except for possibly the hops isomerization, but you can compensate for a shorter boil time by using more hops later.

Extract brewers can get away with shorter (or no) boils because the extract has already been boiled. Basically all you have to do for extract is to pasteurize it, and get the hops utilization right.

 

[Tazzster]

The best way to avoid it is to boil vigorously with the lid off.

How much off should your lid be? I usually leave mine askew a little, depending where I am at with volumes. Because I am brewing outside I am afraid that a leaf or spider is going to drop in there.

 

[dkevinb]

How much off should your lid be? I usually leave mine askew a little, depending where I am at with volumes. Because I am brewing outside I am afraid that a leaf or spider is going to drop in there.

The more off the better, I'd say. The steam containing the precursor (SMS) can condense on the lid and drip back into the kettle.

I understand your concern, though. I brew outdoors in SoCal. I'm more concerned about overflying crows and seagulls than leaves and spiders, though.

 

[RM-MN]

That's a nice list of the izations but not many of them deal with how long to boil. As soon as the wort boils you have hot break for the protein coagulation and pasteurization happens fast at boiling too. Carmelization can be emulated with melanoidin malt so we are down to isomerization and evaporation. Hops will be about 90% isomerized with a 30 minute boil so you can get your bitterness in half the usual hour long boil by adding a trivial amount more hops so what we are left with is evaporation. Part of that can be eliminated by controlling how much wort is produced which leaves us with boiling off DMS.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

This article posted above says that it takes 40 minutes of boiling to halve the amount of DMS. It also states that by boiling for 60 minutes you will have removed 67% of the DMS and that DMS continues to be produced as the wort cools so fast cooling is necessary, or is it? No chill proponents don't report a problem with DMS even though it may take hours for the wort to chill.

It's also reported that a vigorous frementation drives off DMS. That seems reasonable but...when I do a batch of beer, no chill, and keep it in a cool location so it ferments slowly, I still don't get the "cooked corn" smell. Why??? It should be a DMS bomb! What happens if I boil for less time?

 

[dkevinb]

That's a nice list of the izations but not many of them deal with how long to boil. As soon as the wort boils you have hot break for the protein coagulation and pasteurization happens fast at boiling too. Carmelization can be emulated with melanoidin malt so we are down to isomerization and evaporation. Hops will be about 90% isomerized with a 30 minute boil so you can get your bitterness in half the usual hour long boil by adding a trivial amount more hops so what we are left with is evaporation. Part of that can be eliminated by controlling how much wort is produced which leaves us with boiling off DMS.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

This article posted above says that it takes 40 minutes of boiling to halve the amount of DMS. It also states that by boiling for 60 minutes you will have removed 67% of the DMS and that DMS continues to be produced as the wort cools so fast cooling is necessary, or is it? No chill proponents don't report a problem with DMS even though it may take hours for the wort to chill.

It's also reported that a vigorous frementation drives off DMS. That seems reasonable but...when I do a batch of beer, no chill, and keep it in a cool location so it ferments slowly, I still don't get the "cooked corn" smell. Why??? It should be a DMS bomb! What happens if I boil for less time?

Good question. The only time I've ever had a sulfur/DMS aroma/flavor was in my recent batch of wheat beer, during which I followed all the recommended procedures. It's finally fading, but I strongly suspect it was caused by the WB-06 yeast, which I had never used before. I guess after thousands of years brewing is still more of a craft than a science.

 

[hio3791]

How much off should your lid be? I usually leave mine askew a little, depending where I am at with volumes. Because I am brewing outside I am afraid that a leaf or spider is going to drop in there.

If a spider can survive the boil then it deserves to be alive!

You have 2 things that are in the critical path of determining the length of your brew session: mash and boil. Everything else can be done in advance or in parallel (prep the night before, heat up water during the mash, clean during the boil, additional cleaning during chilling, etc) or can be adjusted to maximize time efficiency.

For sake of arguments, assuming a 1 hour mash and 1 hour boil, then you have to find ways to maximize time efficiency:

1) Reconsider mashing strategy - BIAB is usually faster than Batch Sparge which is usually faster than Fly Sparge.
2) Reduce the time to move liquids. For small volumes, nothing is faster than picking up one vessel and dumping into another but it's dangerous and can become significantly more difficult as the volume increases, in which case, a pump is usually faster than gravity.
3) Time to heat liquids - a larger burner at the expense of additional fuel accomplishes that. When I went electric, time to boil was considerably faster than in my Banjo burner!
4) Time to chill - a plate or CFC would be quicker than an IC, etc.

Since you cannot instantaneously go from mash to boil and from boil to chilled wort, there is some time there that gets added into your critical path.

Assuming a well defined process, then you could get into the 3+ hour realm for a 5 gal batch. I have done 10 gal batches in 4 hrs but it's quite exhausting. I typically average 4.5 hrs for 10 gal.

I began to experiment with shorter mash times but I am not sold and I am going back to 1 hour mashes. In my experience, my FG has been higher with shorter mash times. There's an interesting thread in the AG forum that suggests that longer mash times increases fermentability which would seem to agree with my own experience.

Finally, do not fear the bugs and remove the lid! A rolling boil will kill them. What I've noticed is that the steam typically keeps the bugs away. When I start to chill, I'll put the lid on only because it can take 20 - 30 min to pump the wort through the CFC into the buckets. At that point, I am more concerned about a bug flying into one of my buckets so I try to keep those closed as much as possible.

And although I've gone electric, SWMBO will not let me move my operations into the basement as she dislikes the aromas of brewing so I am stuck in the garage.

 

[paperairplane]

If anything, lately I have been doing longer mashes. Big burner is a definite, to reduce time waiting for hot water / boil.

My time cheat is I only chill to get under 100*F - then it goes into ferm fridge and I pitch yeast later.

 

[BungBrewing]

typically takes 4 hours for 5 or 10 gallon all grain batch on my eHerms. I once did three 10 gallon batches back to back in 10 hours - took quite a bit of multitasking (heating strike water/mashing while boiling prev batch) and I would not try it on a day I was feeling less than optimal.

I've never done three batches in a day, but I always do two all-grain 10-gallon batches since I'm so lazy and I only have to clean up once (HERMS). Usually about eight hours (give or take), depending on mash and boil times. Once I finally get my bigger beer cooler going, I may have to try a three batch day.

 

[masonsjax]

There was a recent thread which tackled this topic with loads of good info here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/cutting-brew-day-time-time-challenge-487453/

 

[Tazzster]

3) Time to heat liquids - a larger burner at the expense of additional fuel accomplishes that. When I went electric, time to boil was considerably faster than in my Banjo burner!

What is this faster electric version that you speak of?

 

[hio3791]

What is this faster electric version that you speak of?

When I went electric, I went with 5500 watt ULWD elements. It's capable of raising the temperature much faster than I could with propane.

 

[bobeer]

I brewed a small 3 gallon batch of 1.070 beer yesterday in 3.5 hours. That time was minus the clean up but I was cleaning as I was going so I only had the immersion chiller and the boil kettle to clean.
Usually 6 gallons in 5-6 hours. Clean up included.

 

[dobes]

For the winter I started doing BIAB. Now my brew day isn't always shorter but with having 2 kids I can do brews around their time.
Today I set everything up then took my son to preschool. Came home had my other son (21 months old) help me heat water and get the mash going. While mashing picked my son up from preschool. Came home got the boil going, hung out with the kids, boil done, put my pot outside to let MN cool it down so I can transfer and pitch tomorrow during kids nap time.

So from setup to yeast pitch is over 24 hours but I work it in my schedule so the actual time doesn't matter to me.

But if I push it I can do a 5 gl BIAB in 3.5 hours.

 

[z-bob]

I'm still trying to figure out if I can mash one night, then boil the next. Otherwise, Saturday is the only day I can brew, and something always comes up on Saturday to get in my way...

There's lot's of threads about that, with constant warnings that the wort will sour or spoil. But after mashout and sparging, the wort will be quite hot (probably close to 160°.) If I just keep it covered, spoilage seems unlikely. If I heat the hot wort to a simmer (190°-ish) and then cover it... seems like it would be sterile. The only possible spoilage would be from clostridium spores (very heat resistant), and they don't act that fast.

It will take a long time to heat the cooled wort to a boil, and I've wasted the previous day's stored heat. That's the only downside I see here.

 

[elpenoso]

About 3hours for 10 gallons. The trick is an electric element on a timer. I walk out the door at 8am, mash in immediately, have coffee make breakfast, stroll outside, lauter, boil, chill, done.

 

[thaymond]

I have pushed a 5 gallon BIAB to 3.5 hours but I rarely do that. I usually start around the kids bedtime on a weekend night, so anywhere between 7:30 and 9:00. I'll pre. I'll grains, so it's only a matter of heating the water, during which I'll prepare the boil equipment, sparge equipment, and calibrate the thermometer. I'll mash in, prepare any additional equipment, prepare ingredients, measure out hops, play a few games of darts with the wife, and move the kettle off the burner for the last few minutes to heat my sparge water. I'll move the bag to the sparge setup and sparge with pre heated water to the boil volume. I'll then squeeze the bag out and immediately start the gas for the boil. I'll watch the boil until the hot break of over, then I'll begin cleaning. I have a timer that goes off during my hop additions, so I don't miss those. I Clean until I'm done (usually have a good 15-20 minutes left in the boil. I'll prepare the yeast (rehydrate or finished starter) and the fermenter at this time. Once the boil is over, I'll move to the wash tub for cooling (I use an IC and it takes forever.) I'll transfer to the fermenter, pitch the yeast, and begin cleaning my remaining equipment. A typical day can last about 5 hours, but I'm in no real hurry.

 

[pumahunter]

I used to want to rush through and get a batch done at night after I was home from work...but I decided it was less stressful to just get up a little early on the weekend and take my time to make sure everything is right...