Hot side tubing alternatives to silicone.

[Bad Bubba]

I was hoping people on this forum could help me with my quest. I am looking to replace my silicone tubing because of the concerns with oxygen diffusion through the tubing. My set up really requires that I use a flexible tubing/hose. I have been doing a some research but have not found anything definitive. Many materials seem to have low permeability but do not perform well at temperature. I have found some mention of Santoprene but have found little about it formulation. I saw on one forum that someone said it was the same as EDPM. I have also found some high temp hose from EJ Beverage but no mention of its permeability.

So my question is what are others using for tubing to prevent oxidation. Any recommendations and where to source.

 

[WDC]

What about corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) Duda Diesel sells it in custom lengths and it's flexible, though not like silicone.

 

[Bad Bubba]

What about corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) Duda Diesel sells it in custom lengths and it's flexible, though not like silicone.

Thanks but I don't think that will meet my needs. I have worked with that before and it is not really made for moving around. Getting fittings on is a chore.

 

[tracer bullet]

https://imageserv5.team-logic.com/mediaLibrary/99/D116_20Haibing_20Zhang_20et_20al.pdf
It appears polyethylene is far better than silicone? Page 4 at the bottom. And I do recall it's a reasonable tubing to work with.

 

[Bad Bubba]

https://imageserv5.team-logic.com/mediaLibrary/99/D116_20Haibing_20Zhang_20et_20al.pdf
It appears polyethylene is far better than silicone? Page 4 at the bottom. And I do recall it's a reasonable tubing to work with.

Thanks for the link. Neither HDPE or LDPE are suitable for the hot side use.

 

[McMullan]

Can't say I've noticed any negative effects when using silicone tubing to recirculate wort on brew day. Beer tastes exactly the same as my half batches which I don't bother recirculating. If you really want to get away from silicone consider going stainless. Costwise - and considering it's going to last a lifetime - it's very difficult to beat.

 

[SanPancho]

the "high temp" stuff from EJ beverage says its ultra low permeability or something like that, but they dont specifically give figures. EPDM is fine, but going to be hard to get a hold of, never seen it used for flexible tubing like you're describing. brewer's hose will be too large and expensive. santoprene is good, but will be expensive, hard to say if you can get it in smaller amounts.

1/2 stainless tubing isnt too hard to work with, just get yourself a hacksaw and stainless compression fittings and you're done. pretty low in flexibility, but you could basically make a few pieces for particular jobs- a set for mash to pump to kettle, a set for whirlpool in kettle, a set for knockout/chilling, etc.

 

[IslandLizard]

What @McMullan said.^

I haven't noticed any drawback using thick walled 1/2" silicone tubing on the hot side, even with 1 hour long (extended) whirlpool/chilling recirculations, but never compared side by side.

Now I've read brewers wrapping their silicone tubing with Kapton tape. It's supposed to have a very low Oxygen permeability, even at 1 mil thickness.
Not sure what width would be best to use for flexible hose wrapping, maybe 1/2 inch wide, with some (1/8") overlap on each turn?

Link to assorted width 4-pack, 36 yards each ($9.99 right now):
https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Polyi...2Z92QZ2/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B072Z92QZ2&psc=1

 

[Bad Bubba]

Can't say I've noticed any negative effects when using silicone tubing to recirculate wort on brew day. Beer tastes exactly the same as my half batches which I don't bother recirculating. If you really want to get away from silicone consider going stainless. Costwise - and considering it's going to last a lifetime - it's very difficult to beat.

I wonder how much Oxygen actually permeates through the tubing. Hard data would be nice.

What @McMullan said.^

I haven't noticed any drawback using thick walled 1/2" silicone tubing on the hot side, even with 1 hour long (extended) whirlpool/chilling recirculations, but never compared side by side.

Now I've read brewers wrapping their silicone tubing with Kapton tape. It's supposed to have a very low Oxygen permeability, even at 1 mil thickness.
Not sure what width would be best to use for flexible hose wrapping, maybe 1/2 inch wide, with some (1/8") overlap on each turn?

Link to assorted width 4-pack, 36 yards each ($9.99 right now):
https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Polyi...2Z92QZ2/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B072Z92QZ2&psc=1

Thanks for the info.

I have been dabbling in some of the LODO techniques on the Hot Side and have to say my Lagers have gone to a new level - now if that is LODO or just getting better at brewing I do not know. Right now my brewing space is small and does not lend itself to hard piping very well - I have to move things like the chiller, hop rocket, pumps around. I could probably do it but I thought if there was a silicone alternative that had some of the properties (high temperature and flexibility) that would be easiest.

 

[tracer bullet]

Neither HDPE or LDPE are suitable for the hot side use.

Yeah looked later and saw the temperature rating. Dang.

Kapton tape is polyimide. It seems OK for an O2 barrier but there are better options. Far better is Teflon, aka PTFE. There are PTFE films with adhesive backing that can be bought at places like McMaster. Wrapping that around silicone could be an option.

 

[Red over White]

The high temp EJ Beverage tube from more beer is the way to go. Silicone is extremely permeable and the EJ tubing is an easy upgrade.

 

[IslandLizard]

The high temp EJ Beverage tube from more beer is the way to go. Silicone is extremely permeable and the EJ tubing is an easy upgrade.

Thank you, good find!

Looks like it will do the job.
1/2" ID / 3/4" OD runs at around $3/ft for a 20 foot length or $2.40/ft per 50' roll at MoreBeer.

The only critical review I saw there:

Good Tubing but Kind of rigid
I like the properties of this tubing but it is a little too rigid for my tastes. It is tough to make a great seal over a hose barb with a clamp because the tubing does not give a lot like normal silicon.

The ability to stretch and crimp it adequately is critical. For example I use 1/2" high flow Camlocks (BrewHardware.com), they have a short, machined terminal featuring a single barb at the edge of the fitting, like these: Big-C. The tubing needs to be able to stretch over those. With some heat perhaps?

Good or at least decent flexibility is desired too.

Any thoughts?

 

[tracer bullet]

Agreed, nice find @Red over White .

Wonder what the stuff is actually made of? I can't find any details but it's not surprising. I did get "70% more resistant to oxygen permeation" which isn't perfect but still an improvement for sure.

 

[IslandLizard]

"70% more resistant to oxygen permeation"

70% more than what? That's not even double the resistance (or half the O2 permeation).

 

[Red over White]

Thank you, good find!

Looks like it will do the job.
1/2" ID / 3/4" OD runs at around $3/ft for a 20 foot length or $2.40/ft per 50' roll at MoreBeer.

The only critical review I saw there:

The ability to stretch and crimp it adequately is critical. For example I use 1/2" high flow Camlocks (BrewHardware.com), they have a short, machined terminal featuring a single barb at the edge of the fitting, like these: Big-C. The tubing needs to be able to stretch over those. With some heat perhaps?

Good or at least decent flexibility is desired too.

Any thoughts?

With some heat you can put it on fine. It is flexible, but hard to kink even hot unlike silicone.

 

[IslandLizard]

With some heat you can put it on fine. It is flexible, but hard to kink even hot unlike silicone.

Thanks!
How springy is that tubing?
For example, can it bend at a 4-6" radius, and stay that way without wanting to spring back? Like the short piece of hose I have now between my pump exit port and plate chiller input, without pushing them apart? It's no issue with 1/2" thick walled silicone.

 

[Red over White]

Thanks!
How springy is that tubing?
For example, can it bend at a 4-6" radius, and stay that way without wanting to spring back? Like the short piece of hose I have now between my pump exit port and plate chiller input, without pushing them apart? It's no issue with 1/2" thick walled silicone.

It takes a heat set with use, so I don't think you will have a problem with that. Burn it in before brew day if you feel uncomfortable. 9 inches of tube will make a 90° bend no sweat, it had no problem in my system.

 

[Red over White]

Agreed, nice find @Red over White .

Wonder what the stuff is actually made of? I can't find any details but it's not surprising. I did get "70% more resistant to oxygen permeation" which isn't perfect but still an improvement for sure.

I do remember that it is right up there with tygon tube. Someone on here posted a (cole-palmer brand maybe?) chart with permeability values of various tubing types, but my HBT Google fu skills apparently suck because I can't locate it now.

 

[Dland]

Now I've read brewers wrapping their silicone tubing with Kapton tape. It's supposed to have a very low Oxygen permeability, even at 1 mil thickness.

Some folks wrap their heads in tinfoil to avoid the govt generated scans,....but if they are still using their "smartphones", word is they may still be detected...{; But I digress...

Seriously friends, there is nothing wrong with using the properly specked silicon tubing on hot side. Yes, it should be replaced occasionally. My opinion only, based on many batches brewed.

 

[Red over White]

Some folks wrap their heads in tinfoil to avoid the govt generated scans,....but if they are still using their "smartphones", word is they may still be detected...{; But I digress...

Seriously friends, there is nothing wrong with using the properly specked silicon tubing on hot side. Yes, it should be replaced occasionally. My opinion only, based on many batches brewed.

I have to nod my head to this. I have done it both ways and didn't really believe any of this low oxygen mumbo jumbo had any merit until I committed to go all in and find out. I can taste the difference, but I don't think everyone can. Some of us are blind to certain things like diacetyl for example....

 

[tracer bullet]

More info on the high temp EJ tubing but no real details. If anyone wondered: https://d2jug8yyubo3yl.cloudfront.n...745D/1ea0528d-f7a6-4ea6-ac70-fb8ef963c12f.pdf

Of course I Can't find the pdf from earlier regarding the 70%.

 

[Bad Bubba]

As I said when I posted originally, I am aware of these products but struggle to find much data in relation to permeability. One challenge is most plastics are marketed under trade names like Tygon or Santoprene but even within those names there are different formulations which give different performance characteristics. US Plastics is a great resource and carries many different plastic tubing.

Here is a link to a chart which shows the permeability of various plastic materials. From the chart you can see the Oxygen Permeability Coefficient of 8025 for Versilic SPX-50(silicone) while Norprene A-60-F (food grade tygon tubing) has a Oxygen Permeability Coefficient of 200 which would be a 95%+ reduction of Oxygen.

Here are some non-silicone plastics which also meet the temperature requirement and are food safe.

Excelprene TPE Food Process Tubing - appears to be similar to Tygon A-60-F and runs about $4 per foot.

EJ Beverage High Temp™ tubing - it is advertised as ultra low permeability but no published data that I can find - less that $3 per foot.

Santoprene™ 73A tubing - some anecdotal information that is a good O2 barrier. It is probably cheaper that silicone. It is EDPM particles encased in polypropylene. EDPM has a low permeability.

Tygon® E-65-F - No data on permeability.

I am in the process of reaching out to the manufacturers to see if they have any permeability data.

 

[jerrylotto]

Seems to me that finding the gas permeability of any material used to build a container is as simple as pressurizing it with the gas and measuring the pressure drop.

 

[SanPancho]

I do remember that it is right up there with tygon tube. Someone on here posted a (cole-palmer brand maybe?) chart with permeability values of various tubing types, but my HBT Google fu skills apparently suck because I can't locate it now.

I posted it a few years back. It can be found on cole Parmer site somewhere. Dont recall exactly but this chart seems to have mostly the same info.
https://pim-resources.coleparmer.com/selection-guide/4248-mflex-tubing-selection-guide.pdf

 

[Bad Bubba]

Seems to me that finding the gas permeability of any material used to build a container is as simple as pressurizing it with the gas and measuring the pressure drop.

Not really because diffusion through a membrane is driven by factors like concentration, molecule size, polarity, etc. Pressure does not impact it. That is why different gases have different permeability.

 

[IslandLizard]

Seems to me that finding the gas permeability of any material used to build a container is as simple as pressurizing it with the gas and measuring the pressure drop.

I imagine they use a double chamber device with a membrane of the material to be tested between them. One side is filled/pressurized with the gas to be tested while the other side is kept in vacuum.

Not really because diffusion through a membrane is driven by factors like concentration, molecule size, polarity, etc. Pressure does not impact it.

Pressure (partial pressure in gas mixtures) surely play a role in speed of diffusion. No?

 

[Bad Bubba]

I imagine they use a double chamber device with a membrane of the material to be tested between them. One side is filled/pressurized with the gas to be tested while the other side is kept in vacuum.


Pressure (partial pressure in gas mixtures) surely play a role in speed of diffusion. No?

Take pressure differential out of it. That is not the driving force. The driving force is concentration gradient across the membrane. Partial pressure represents concentration so yes it plays a major role. Take gas permeable contact lenses, there is no significant pressure gradient across the membrane - the transport is all concentration gradient.

 

[Bad Bubba]

I did get a reply from Stout tanks who carries Santoprene -

For Low Oxygen Brewing, I understand that this type of hose is about the best you can get: Tygon® A-60-F Hot Food & Beverage Tubing. There was an analysis by a brewer on the lowox brewing Facebook page earlier this year, he tested the DO pickup and this was better than anything except SS pipe.

Type A-60-F being the key spec. US Plastic sells it, as do other companies. We don’t have it, unfortunately.

Definitely avoid clear/semi clear silicone. It was pretty bad for DO pickup.

 

[beren]

Maybe I’m missing something but I thought oxygen before pitching your yeast was a good thing and required for the yeast to reproduce do their job correctly.

 

[Bad Bubba]

Maybe I’m missing something but I thought oxygen before pitching your yeast was a good thing and required for the yeast to reproduce do their job correctly.

Yes, it does. But that is getting to the cold side of things. The reason to prevent oxygen during the mash according to the LODO methodology is explained in this post . The oxygen in wort is quickly consumed by the fermenting yeast. The idea is to cold crash, oxygenate and pitch yeast in quick succession because you do not want oxygenated wort sitting around to oxidize some of the flavor producing compounds.

 

[jbschuyler]

Perhaps I'm missing something too, but why is there a concern about silicone tubing permeability during the mash, when the liquid surface of the mash itself is exposed to open air? At least that's the way I've always done it, and seems pretty essential in being able to monitor flow during re-circulation.

 

[beren]

Not to mention the fly sparge spray. I suppose you could do it in a sealed container purged of oxygen but that does seem extreme to me.

 

[tracer bullet]

Ahh but I believe for LODO, covering the surface of the mash is a thing, and there's no spraying at all either.

(Someone else would have to confirm).

Silicone for the most of us = sure, who cares, given everything else. For more LODO oriented methods it's a thing because those other bits are already addressed.

 

[jbschuyler]

Interesting. I have never really read into full LODO, so I get the point now on the hot side. I have always been very careful about sealing off all O2 exposure on the cold side though.

 

[Dland]

I have to nod my head to this. I have done it both ways and didn't really believe any of this low oxygen mumbo jumbo had any merit until I committed to go all in and find out. I can taste the difference, but I don't think everyone can. Some of us are blind to certain things like diacetyl for example....

As a cold lager brewer, diacetyl can matter, but not main point.

I don't do much for hot side lodo, it might add something with certain brews, probably on the nuance level.

Main point being, even of into hot side LODO, oxygen permeability in hoses not going to make a measurable amount of difference, and wrapping "kapton tape" , whatever that is, is going to render the tubing more difficult to handle and sanitize, and probably will not help w O2 to boot.

 

[day_trippr]

I bet someone has actually done the testing and proved HSA via recirculation through permeable hoses is a thing. Whether it rises to the level of action is in the hands of the beholder.

In any case I was going to suggest braided Tygon...

Cheers!

 

[tracer bullet]

Whether it rises to the level of action is in the hands of the beholder.

100%

It doesn't for me, but it's still fun to learn about and ponder, so here I am. Who knows, maybe it will some day.

Cause I need to change out a bunch of equipment again like I need another hole in my head.


.

 

[Bassman2003]

The three best options are Tygon, Santoprene or the PTFE stuff at MoreBeer.

Tygon is the best but very expensive.

Santoprene is very good but the walls are thin, which makes it less expensive. It will kink if the turn radius is too small.

PTFE has good O2 specs but it is rather rigid compared to silicone. It is best used with 5/8" barbs as it will not make a good seal over 1/2" barbs due to the rigidity. A poor seal lets more O2 in than any style of tubing.

I use Santoprene as I could not pay north of $5 per foot for Tygon. $1.70 from McMaster Carr is more like it. The tubing is very nice but it is a little thinner than I expected.

 

[tracer bullet]

https://www.masterflex.nl/assets/uploads/2017/08/Masterflex-tubing-formulations-679-680-681.pdf
On the subject of various tubing and O2 permeation...

 

[Jayjay1976]

Try tinfoil. Makes a great hat too.