Bilsch
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I've made and used it both ways and IMHO the metasilicate version works decidedly better.
Homemade PBW Recipe
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I've made and used it both ways and IMHO the metasilicate version works decidedly better.
Ugh. I should have followed my instincts and went that route. I just received a box of real TSP from Amazon, it's a rock hard brick like some of the negative reviews mentioned. Now I feel like it's not worth the hassle of grinding it up if it's not going to perform as well as metasilicate. Ten bucks down the drain, and I have a useless brick of environmentally unfriendly crap. I'll grab a bag of tsp90 from menards to complete my batch.
I would use it, for most cleanup the real TSP will work similarly and just as well, while for some chores it may work better. It's a very strong base, slightly under lye, but not (as) caustic.
Although the metasilicate may have a slight edge over TSP here and there, you may never miss it. For those cleaning jobs where you feel you "need" it, add a teaspoon of metasilicate to your gallon of working solution.
I did notice the metasilicate in a working solution tends to gel up after storage for a few weeks, leaving a gelatinous "layer" in the jug. It re-dissolves when shaken or swirled.
To break the brick up put in a double layer heavy duty plastic bag and hammer it with a rubber or wooden mallet, or a piece of 2x4.
Bilsch
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Interesting that you mention the gel. I used to see that happen after sitting a couple days with real PBW. Haven't had it happen with the generic mix made with either with TSP or meta. Always thought it might be the chelating agent. But hey unless were were paying for tech or reagent grade there is going to be quite a bit of variance in formula depending where our chemicals came from.
devils4ever
Well-Known Member
Okay, I'm ready to try this. So, if I understand this correctly, I need the following:
6 lbs Oxi Clean Free (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oxi-Clean-Free-Versatile-Stain-Remover-65-Loads-3-0-LB/19406202)
4 lbs Red Devil TSP/90 (https://www.amazon.com/Red-Devil-0261-Heavy-Cleaner/dp/B0015WT148?th=1)
40 oz Seventh Generation Automatic Dish Detergent (https://www.target.com/p/seventh-generation-153-natural-dishwasher-detergent-free-and-clear-75-oz/-/A-13218995#lnk=sametab)
Is this correct? Are these the correct ingredients in the links?
6 lbs Oxi Clean Free (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oxi-Clean-Free-Versatile-Stain-Remover-65-Loads-3-0-LB/19406202)
4 lbs Red Devil TSP/90 (https://www.amazon.com/Red-Devil-0261-Heavy-Cleaner/dp/B0015WT148?th=1)
40 oz Seventh Generation Automatic Dish Detergent (https://www.target.com/p/seventh-generation-153-natural-dishwasher-detergent-free-and-clear-75-oz/-/A-13218995#lnk=sametab)
Is this correct? Are these the correct ingredients in the links?
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That will make a powder that cleans, but there will be things in it that aren't in PBW. For example the 7th Gen MSDS and it has a lot of salt in it. I don't want salt in my cleaner.
@IslandLizard had more to say about it . I agree with the simple approach.
@IslandLizard had more to say about it . I agree with the simple approach.
Thanks for the emphasis to keep Homemade PBW KISS. Most others on this thread don't seem to care and just follow...
There have been notions that seawater (salt water) cleans very well, although it doesn't do grease. I agree to that, having spent many years on or near the ocean, alas, not while home brewing. So I have no experience in cleaning kettle scale from boiling wort and caked on krausen in fermentors with salty water.
I do know (hot) PBW works for these things, as does a bit of Barkeeper's Friend where scale is more tenacious. I'm sticking to that, so to speak, without the use of 7th Generation additions.
My brewing gear is stainless steel, but I'm still not putting it in salty water. There are also countless other bits and pieces like the metal wires in bottle brushes, hose clamps, etc. which are probably not stainless. The salt gets rinsed off but you can always make a mistake. Why tempt fate?
devils4ever
Well-Known Member
So, you're saying I should eliminate the Seventh Generation Auto Dishwasher Detergent?
I should just use the Oxi Clean Free and Red Devil TSP/90 in the proportions I gave?
devils4ever
Well-Known Member
Red Devil TSP/90 seems hard to find locally. I guess I could order it from amazon, but I need it for this weekend.
Can regular TSP be used instead? Is it as effective? Safe?
Can regular TSP be used instead? Is it as effective? Safe?
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Try Ace Hdwe for RD tsp 90. Reg tsp won't hurt The phosphate scare was overblown.
devils4ever
Well-Known Member
I was able to source a 1 lb bag of TSP/90 from Amazon with my son's Prime membership. I mixed up 7 oz of Oxi Clean Free with 3 oz of TSP/90. I used 5 oz for each of my carboys. I was very pleased with the results. It took off almost all the ring without brushing. I needed to do some minor brushing on one of the carboys, but it was MUCH better than Oxi Clean alone.
I notice the TSP/90 bag says to not use with glass. So, I guess I can't store a batch in a glass Mason jar?
I notice the TSP/90 bag says to not use with glass. So, I guess I can't store a batch in a glass Mason jar?
I think the issue is it puts a film on glass if it dries. It might make the jar ugly but I wouldn't worry about it.
I just mixed up my batch last night from the items listed, it filled a 23 cup cereal keeper completely and there was some left that I put in a ziploc bag. I estimate the total volume was about 24 cups, so anyone looking for a storage container can use that as a guideline.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
The 7th Gen provides surfactants and chelators, which are needed to match the PBW formulation.... They help remove oil and mineral deposits respectively.
I didn't use the full box in my mix, only 45oz.
I didn't use the full box in my mix, only 45oz.
Regular tsp can be used and it is safe to use on your brewing gear as far as I can tell since if there's any tsp residue, it's not an issue tsp is a good additive as well. Check a few boxes of cereal and you might find it on the ingredient list.
Now that I have a batch ready to use, how much do I need to add to 5 gallons of water for cleaning? I thought I saw something about using the oxi clean scoop, will that provide that the correct dilution?
Just recalling this info for reference, 1 oz. per gallon
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I rarely use 6 of the scoops in a 6 gallon carboy ... 2 usually clean it up fully with an overnight soak
Hey guys, I tried to make a homemade version of PWB and ended up with the attached fail! Not sure what happened so would welcome any thoughts.
I mixed sodium percarbonate with trisodium phosphate (we don't have TSP/90 in the UK) in a 70:30 ratio. I then added around 5% of the weight in citric acid to act as a chelator but as soon as I started stirring the mixture it turned yellow and clumped together. Now there are yellow lumps in it and it's clumping together quite badly.
Anyone know what's happened? Will it still be possible to use the mixture as a cleaning agent or would I be better throwing it out?
I mixed sodium percarbonate with trisodium phosphate (we don't have TSP/90 in the UK) in a 70:30 ratio. I then added around 5% of the weight in citric acid to act as a chelator but as soon as I started stirring the mixture it turned yellow and clumped together. Now there are yellow lumps in it and it's clumping together quite badly.
Anyone know what's happened? Will it still be possible to use the mixture as a cleaning agent or would I be better throwing it out?
processhead
Well-Known Member
Make a mess and see if it cleans it up.
Seriously, take some greasy cooking utensils or oven grates and try your cleaner out on it.
My guess is it will still work fine if it will dissolve in hot water.
processhead
Well-Known Member
I think the risk is minimal. Unlike sanitizing solution, where you can't really see if it is doing the job, cleaners like PBW either work well or they don't.
You will be able to rate the effectiveness by how fast and how effectively soils are removed from surfaces. All of this can be seen and felt.
I use the homemade stuff on glass all the time. I've never noticed a problem and I am pretty cavalier. If you're careful to not let it dry on glass it should be fine. I'd do some tests though.
It was powdered citric acid. It looked white when I added it but there was clearly some reaction taking place as it turned yellow and clumped.
Seems to clean fine although there's a load of strange white gunk that floats to the top in the liquid
Stealthcruiser
Well-Known Member
Taste it.......
Life long PBW user. First time user of this recipe. I got tired of feeling ripped off paying $6-8/lb for some white powder that is just dirt cheap raw ingredients. About the only way to get a decent price/lb on this stuff is to buy the 50lb bucket, but that is more PBW than I need for the next 5 years.
I just made a batch of this from the recipe in post #402. So far i'm quite impressed. I tested it on a crusty erlenmeyer and it was spotless in about 60 seconds. Time will tell but this looks promising.
All together i got all the ingredients on amazon, with prime shipping, for about $51 to my doorstep. I spent another $5 on a 2 gal bucket with lid. So i got 13 lbs for about $4/lb. This puts it about the same price per lb as buying a 50lb pail but only 1/4 the amount.
I just made a batch of this from the recipe in post #402. So far i'm quite impressed. I tested it on a crusty erlenmeyer and it was spotless in about 60 seconds. Time will tell but this looks promising.
All together i got all the ingredients on amazon, with prime shipping, for about $51 to my doorstep. I spent another $5 on a 2 gal bucket with lid. So i got 13 lbs for about $4/lb. This puts it about the same price per lb as buying a 50lb pail but only 1/4 the amount.
I finally tried this. It worked fine but I did get some stains on the outside bottom of the bottles at the bottom of the bucket where some of the powder had not dissolved. I mixed too much I suppose, but otherwise it worked great. Next time I'll mix half strength for bottle soaking.
stlblues5010
Junior Member
Usually if you have granules left either you didn't mix it enough or there wasn't enough water.
Since I live in Canada I can't source the Seventh Generation of the TSP/90 and the OxiClean is about 50% more expensive so making this fomula is challenging.
Fortunately for me, I live close enough to the border and I was at the end of my supply of PBW, I used this an an excuse to cross and pick up a few things and here is what I was able to put together:
OxiClean Versatile Free, 2X52oz tubs at Target - $15.28
Seventh Generation 75oz box at Target - $6.49
Red Devil TSP/90, 64oz Ace Hardware - $11.99 (I got the last 4# bag and they told me that is was being discontinued)
This works out to $2.22/lb USD or about $2.75 after the exchange. More than worth the drive.
As for how well it works, I did a big cleaning today and my kegs look spotless, my BIAB bag looks like I just bought it and I hope my CFC is clean as a whistle after circulating for half an hour.
I did notice that as others have noted, if the water is cool to cold, it will foam quite a lot. I heated water in my kettle to about 180 and added 1oz per gallon. It dissolved very nicely with only a gentle stir. I fired up the pump to recirculate through the CFC and no foam at all. I then transferred some of the hot solution into my kegs and a cleaning bucket for all of the various parts and pieces. There was a film of the cleaner left on the walls of the kettle and when I used some cold water to rinse the walls, it foamed quite heavily. I then decided to take the rest of the stuff inside where I could rinse with hot water and there was very little foam.
One last thing, where I live, the water is quite hard (+250 mg/L) and there doesn't appear to be any film or residue on anything that I cleaned today after a good rinse.
I spent a lot of time going back and forth in this thread to get a handle on everything so I hope this post helps out with anyone looking here for the first time.
Cheers
PS One thing I noticed in looking around is that the All Oxy Laundry Booster is now showing at almost $16 for the 52oz tub at Walmart and on Amazon
Fortunately for me, I live close enough to the border and I was at the end of my supply of PBW, I used this an an excuse to cross and pick up a few things and here is what I was able to put together:
OxiClean Versatile Free, 2X52oz tubs at Target - $15.28
Seventh Generation 75oz box at Target - $6.49
Red Devil TSP/90, 64oz Ace Hardware - $11.99 (I got the last 4# bag and they told me that is was being discontinued)
This works out to $2.22/lb USD or about $2.75 after the exchange. More than worth the drive.
As for how well it works, I did a big cleaning today and my kegs look spotless, my BIAB bag looks like I just bought it and I hope my CFC is clean as a whistle after circulating for half an hour.
I did notice that as others have noted, if the water is cool to cold, it will foam quite a lot. I heated water in my kettle to about 180 and added 1oz per gallon. It dissolved very nicely with only a gentle stir. I fired up the pump to recirculate through the CFC and no foam at all. I then transferred some of the hot solution into my kegs and a cleaning bucket for all of the various parts and pieces. There was a film of the cleaner left on the walls of the kettle and when I used some cold water to rinse the walls, it foamed quite heavily. I then decided to take the rest of the stuff inside where I could rinse with hot water and there was very little foam.
One last thing, where I live, the water is quite hard (+250 mg/L) and there doesn't appear to be any film or residue on anything that I cleaned today after a good rinse.
I spent a lot of time going back and forth in this thread to get a handle on everything so I hope this post helps out with anyone looking here for the first time.
Cheers
PS One thing I noticed in looking around is that the All Oxy Laundry Booster is now showing at almost $16 for the 52oz tub at Walmart and on Amazon
actionjackson905
I brew what I like to drink. Don't tell me I cant.
Hey Brion. I live in Burlington and my mix is, Oxy Versatile Free (green lid at Walmart), Seventh Gen (pods in bags at Canadian Tire) and regular TSP (Walmart). Although I think I'd prefer to get the 7th Gen from across the border as busting the pods open is a PITA!
Sounds like you have a good mix.
Cheers
Thanks ActionJackson,
I did look at that option but the local CTC in Brantford didn't carry the pods even though the website said they did and for me, the amount of cleaner I have was well worth the trip.
BTW, what do you use for your LHBS?
Cheers
I did look at that option but the local CTC in Brantford didn't carry the pods even though the website said they did and for me, the amount of cleaner I have was well worth the trip.
BTW, what do you use for your LHBS?
Cheers
actionjackson905
I brew what I like to drink. Don't tell me I cant.
Toronto brewing as they are almost next door from my work. Also Canadian HBS in Brampton as well as OBK on occasion.
I made a batch with OxiClean free/Seventh Gen/Real TSP and just tried it out the other day to clean out my new system before I get ready to brew my first batch in it, and it worked great!
After a test run with plain water to try out the step mashing/boil controller, at the end of the boil I used the OxiClean scoop to add in a scoop full of the mixture to the 6 gallons of water and let it recirc hot for about 30 minutes using the return hose to spray everything down; by the end there was a definite layer of junk floating and a grey scum around the edges of the pot so I drained it and ran plain water through it for a while to rinse all the crud out. I washed most parts of the system individually as it was built up so I was shocked how much additional junk that was still clinging to the insides. This stuff works great! Is it a waste of StarSan to do a final rinse to neutralize the PBW and re-passivate the stainless?
After a test run with plain water to try out the step mashing/boil controller, at the end of the boil I used the OxiClean scoop to add in a scoop full of the mixture to the 6 gallons of water and let it recirc hot for about 30 minutes using the return hose to spray everything down; by the end there was a definite layer of junk floating and a grey scum around the edges of the pot so I drained it and ran plain water through it for a while to rinse all the crud out. I washed most parts of the system individually as it was built up so I was shocked how much additional junk that was still clinging to the insides. This stuff works great! Is it a waste of StarSan to do a final rinse to neutralize the PBW and re-passivate the stainless?
Bilsch
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Starsan rinse is probably a good idea to make sure that you have removed all the alkaline and oxidative residues from the pbw mix. Neither are good for beer. Unfortunately though starsan will NOT passivate your stainless. I know it's said often on forums and in one stainless equipment manufacturers literature but it is absolutely categorically untrue.
I have never heard that you need to repassivate after using caustic cleaner like PBW. That would be an enormous hassle. I've also never had a problem with residue or flavors from PBW. Just rinse well and it will be fine.
(I was able to repassivate a scratch on stainless with undiluted StarSan, which is obviously much more potent, but that wouldn't be practical for anything big.)
(I was able to repassivate a scratch on stainless with undiluted StarSan, which is obviously much more potent, but that wouldn't be practical for anything big.)
