Homebrew club experiment

[zoomzilla]

My homebrew club had a big brew day yesterday where we all chose a partner and brewed a beer that was different in only one regard from our partner's beer as a way to test certain variables. My partner and I brewed an all Apollo IPA. We each used 100% RO water and our recipe, mash temp, etc. were all identical. His water profile was 10 grams gypsum, 4 grams calcium chloride and my water profile was 4 grams gypsum, 10 grams calcium chloride, 12 grams baking soda, 4 grams epsom salt. Basically, his was designed for an IPA and mine was terrible for an IPA. I didn't really think it would be any different, but my partner had recently purchased a PH meter so we tested our PH. His was 5.3 and mine was 6.1! That's a huge difference I wasnt expecting. Anyway, it was a fun experiment and we are looking forward to tasting the results.

 

[snowveil]

At NHC last year John Palmer did a talk on water chemistry and gave out two pale ales with the only difference being the salt additions to the water. There was a noticeable taste difference between the two. Some preferred the "APA water" whlie some preferred the other water...but either way you could certainly tell a difference.

Are the beers going to be fermented in the same place? I'd just be worried that fermentation care and quality will present more of a difference than the nuances of the water quality.

 

[myerstyson]

We're doing an experiment in our club (International Meeting of Brewmasters in Bishkek, or IMBIBe). Three of us each just happened to buy the same kit (AHS's Texas Kolsch). So we're each doing the kit differently.

One is doing the kit "clean," the second is adding 2lbs of honey and I'm adding 8lbs of frozen strawberries to secondary.

We'll see how it all goes.

 

[zoomzilla]

At NHC last year John Palmer did a talk on water chemistry and gave out two pale ales with the only difference being the salt additions to the water. There was a noticeable taste difference between the two. Some preferred the "APA water" whlie some preferred the other water...but either way you could certainly tell a difference.

Are the beers going to be fermented in the same place? I'd just be worried that fermentation care and quality will present more of a difference than the nuances of the water quality.

Yes the beers will both be fermented in his basement at 63F

 

[tagz]

I would have just stuck to the sulfate/chloride adjustments. The high mash pH could produce an unpleasantly astringent beer.

 

[zoomzilla]

I would have just stuck to the sulfate/chloride adjustments. The high mash pH could produce an unpleasantly astringent beer.

That water recipe is just a malty profile, best for London porters or scotch ales. I didn't know it would produce such a high PH. It was the first time either of us had used a ph meter so it was a great learning experience. If I was making an IPA I would never have used my water profile anyway, but it's all for science

 

[Cyclman]

I hope it was a small batch.

 

[tagz]

In the future I would be wary of any recipes that tell you to add baking soda.

Still interested in hearing your results.

 

[aryoung1980]

In the future I would be wary of any recipes that tell you to add baking soda.

Still interested in hearing your results.

Baking soda could be needed for a mash with highly roasted grains. The OP said this was a water profile he used for porters so it makes sense.

 

[tagz]

You would have to have quite a lot of roast to make it an issue. Plus the recipe builder doesn't know the brewer's base water profile. I would not recommended following general prescriptions for water additions. Gypsum and CaCl2 are a bit safer to mess around with, but listing baking soda on a recipe meant for mass consumption is poor form IMO.

 

[zoomzilla]

I used brewers friend to calculate a water profile for London Porter using 100% RO. Using baking soda brought my numbers in line with that style. Sorry I don't have the exact ppm numbers handy right now. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the objection to using baking soda, but as far as I know it was necessary to produce that particular water style. Remember, the point of the experiment is to make a beer using two different water profiles, one of them is a profile good for the style, one of them is not.

 

[tagz]

Baking soda is used to raise the pH of the mash. The only instance where I can see using it would be in counteracting acidic roasted malts. I have fairly typical water and when I look at my profile in brun water, I can add 2 pounds of chocolate malt (gross) to a five gallon batch before I even get close to a pH of 5.0.

I think it's a mistake to try to match bicarbonate levels of a particular water. It's better to target a mash pH. I suspect that even if you were brewing a porter, 12 grams of baking soda would push your mash pH higher than the recommended 5.2-5.4.

 

[zoomzilla]

Baking soda is used to raise the pH of the mash. The only instance where I can see using it would be in counteracting acidic roasted malts. I have fairly typical water and when I look at my profile in brun water, I can add 2 pounds of chocolate malt (gross) to a five gallon batch before I even get close to a pH of 5.0.

I think it's a mistake to try to match bicarbonate levels of a particular water. It's better to target a mash pH. I suspect that even if you were brewing a porter, 12 grams of baking soda would push your mash pH higher than the recommended 5.2-5.4.

That's probably true. I was plugging in the grams of all the different brewing salts to try to get to the proper ratios to be within the brewing profile for that style, the "London" style. It also matched pretty well with the "Edinburgh" style. I remember taking out the baking soda additions and the water profile fell out of style for those two. Maybe those two classic styles just have incredibly high ph water? If I could do it again I would just brew one with "Light and hoppy" profile and one with "Light and malty"

 

[tagz]

The problem is that breweries in those areas probably treat their water to compensate for the bicarbonate levels. In any case I think your experiment is still valuable; you'll be able to see the effects of mash pH on the finished beer. I just think the pH issue will overshadow the other additions. And, like you said, your next version could test sulfate/chloride levels of a "light" beer by simply focusing on gypsum and calcium chloride.

Definitely post your tasting notes!

Oh and others should definitely critique my assessment if it seems off. I'm no expert. This is just what I've gathered over the years.

 

[zoomzilla]

A tasting update: the IPA brewing profile tastes great at the time of kegging. Very solid, very drinkable. The London profile is an undrinkable mess. Incredibly astringent. It will definitely be getting dumped. It was a real eye opener for us to see what a difference water makes. I hate dumping so much beer but it was a great learning experience.

 

[madscientist451]

I hate dumping so much beer but it was a great learning experience.

Great post an experiment.
Instead of dumping it all, why not bottle some from the keg and then come back to it in 4-6-8 weeks to see if the undesirable characteristics have rounded off some?
Perhaps also bottle some of the "good" batch and then you can compare.

 

[zoomzilla]

That's a possibility, though I'm pretty sure astringency from high PH is here to stay. Anybody have any experience with that? Will it fade? It won't hurt to try anyway.