Home brewing with home-malted barley without shaking out the chits?

[Moezart]

Hello everyone out there.
So, I do malt my own grains at home, kiln them and grind them myself. (not by choice, but due to the unavailability of anything that has to do with home brewing where I live)
My question is has anyone ever tried to mill and mash home-made malt without separating it from its chits?
If so, I wonder that had any negative impact on the flavor and the aroma of the finished beer?

Se my last 2 batches had the same detergent-solvent-almost-bleachy sort of off-flavor... And I am going crazy trying to trace back what may have caused that?

I brew ales, mostly with us 05 yeast. I use food grade plastic buckets with rigged up spigots for fermentation....

Thanks a lot for any help...

 

[November]

In cases where I failed to remove all the chaff from the malt, I usually noticed a grassy off flavor and aroma that was persistent and fairly off putting.

 

[November]

I forgot to mention, one of the easiest way I found to separate everything was to dump the grain from one bucket to another from a slight height in front of a blowing fan. The grain should fall into the bucket but everything else flies away. It will make a mess though, so do it outside.

 

[maisch]

Hello everyone out there.
So, I do malt my own grains at home, kiln them and grind them myself. (not by choice, but due to the unavailability of anything that has to do with home brewing where I live)
My question is has anyone ever tried to mill and mash home-made malt without separating it from its chits?
If so, I wonder that had any negative impact on the flavor and the aroma of the finished beer?

Se my last 2 batches had the same detergent-solvent-almost-bleachy sort of off-flavor... And I am going crazy trying to trace back what may have caused that?

I brew ales, mostly with us 05 yeast. I use food grade plastic buckets with rigged up spigots for fermentation....

Thanks a lot for any help...

Do you mean rootlets? or do you mean chits?

Rootlets are the roots that sprout from the seed during germination. These are dried and separated from the malt after kilning. Not separating these rootlets could definitely contribute an off flavor. These are normally separated by rolling the dried malt in a drum, but in lieu of that you can rub them together in your hands in front of a fan or what I like to do is to swirl them around in a coarse strainer.

Chits are the first little beginnings of white sprouts you see coming from the seed during steeping. If you stop the germination at this stage you basically have chit malt which if not evenly sprouted and properly dried would be very "green".

Is your steep water chlorinated? Do you use SMB/KMB at some point in the steep water?

Have you made good malt at home? It sounds as if you have and the reason I'm asking is to see if you can identify what changed?

 

[bracconiere]

Do you mean rootlets? or do you mean chits?

Rootlets are the roots that sprout from the seed during germination. These are dried and separated from the malt after kilning. Not separating these rootlets could definitely contribute an off flavor. These are normally separated by rolling the dried malt in a drum, but in lieu of that you can rub them together in your hands in front of a fan or what I like to do is to swirl them around in a coarse strainer.

Chits are the first little beginnings of white sprouts you see coming from the seed during steeping. If you stop the germination at this stage you basically have chit malt which if not evenly sprouted and properly dried would be very "green".

Is your steep water chlorinated? Do you use SMB/KMB at some point in the steep water?

Have you made good malt at home? It sounds as if you have and the reason I'm asking is to see if you can identify what changed?

i thought those were called acrospires? and i get tons of them even with store bought malt...before i modded my oven to go to lower temps, they used to just give my beer a dark color, and roasty taste....

edit: and, i'm glad to see there's other people malting out there! i've been lonely!

edit 2: i thought chiting is that sorta white start of the rootlets?

 

[maisch]

i thought those were called acrospires? and i get tons of them even with store bought malt...before i modded my oven to go to lower temps, they used to just give my beer a dark color, and roasty taste....

edit: and, i'm glad to see there's other people malting out there! i've been lonely!

edit 2: i thought chiting is that sorta white start of the rootlets?

Chiting is the beginning of the growth of both the acrospire and the rootlets. I've actually added hydrogen peroxide and SMB to the water not only to get rid of chlorine but to oxygenate the water for this stage. It made a big difference in the germination rate and rate of growth.

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/lb4bGtSzxK/

 

[bracconiere]

My question is has anyone ever tried to mill and mash home-made malt without separating it from its chits?
.

i read your link, and that's what i thought chiting was....I'm taking you to be saying that your green malt has some acrospires sticking out of them...?

i've only been malting for 3 years now, so i'm still not super good at it....what temp do you kiln at, and for how long? and, besides the malt...what temp are you fermenting at? if your in the southern hemisphere isn't it summer there now? did the temps go up recently for fermentation?


edit: thanks for the tip about h2o2...i'll have to stop by the garden center and get a gal of 30%!

edit 2: i looked up your handle and it's german...so i'm guessing your not in the southern hemisphere....

edit 3: and i always leave my chits on, or it would kill the grain during malting?

 

[mongoose33]

Chiting is the beginning of the growth of both the acrospire and the rootlets. I've actually added hydrogen peroxide and SMB to the water not only to get rid of chlorine but to oxygenate the water for this stage. It made a big difference in the germination rate and rate of growth.

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/lb4bGtSzxK/

Color me confused, but I suspect I'm going to learn something here.

I add Campden tablets (crushed) to my strike water to act as an oxygen scavenger after preboiling the water to drive off oxygen. It's my understanding that i can use either KMB or SMB for this purpose.

Are you adding hydrogen peroxide for the oxygen? Because unless I don't understand this correctly, wouldn't the SMB work to remove it? Or are you doing it sequentially (SMB, then HP)?

 

[bracconiere]

I just learned something! SMB, are you talking about sodium metabisulfite, or stump remover? damn i lost a batch to that crap trying to remove the chlorine from the beer, that i added to the malting tub water....trying to prevent bacterial growth in it...i found shorter soaks and, more breathing works a LOT better!

to the OP, don't listen to them when they say soak for 8 hours or overnight....i get rotten grains every time, just soak for about an hour or two, till the grains are wet...give them lots of air, and a quick 15 min soak every day after, till their ready to dry....i'm not sure if that's off topic?

 

[Moezart]

Do you mean rootlets? or do you mean chits?

Rootlets are the roots that sprout from the seed during germination. These are dried and separated from the malt after kilning. Not separating these rootlets could definitely contribute an off flavor. These are normally separated by rolling the dried malt in a drum, but in lieu of that you can rub them together in your hands in front of a fan or what I like to do is to swirl them around in a coarse strainer.

Chits are the first little beginnings of white sprouts you see coming from the seed during steeping. If you stop the germination at this stage you basically have chit malt which if not evenly sprouted and properly dried would be very "green".

Is your steep water chlorinated? Do you use SMB/KMB at some point in the steep water?

Have you made good malt at home? It sounds as if you have and the reason I'm asking is to see if you can identify what changed?

Hi there. Sorry for the delayed response. Here are the specs of the water I use. . I have malted before with good results. I just got lazy lately with shaking out the rootlet... I thought they wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Moezart]

i read your link, and that's what i thought chiting was....I'm taking you to be saying that your green malt has some acrospires sticking out of them...?

i've only been malting for 3 years now, so i'm still not super good at it....what temp do you kiln at, and for how long? and, besides the malt...what temp are you fermenting at? if your in the southern hemisphere isn't it summer there now? did the temps go up recently for fermentation?


edit: thanks for the tip about h2o2...i'll have to stop by the garden center and get a gal of 30%!

edit 2: i looked up your handle and it's german...so i'm guessing your not in the southern hemisphere....

edit 3: and i always leave my chits on, or it would kill the grain during malting?

Well I thought rootlets were the same as chits... And apparently there is a difference...

 

[Moezart]

Color me confused, but I suspect I'm going to learn something here.

I add Campden tablets (crushed) to my strike water to act as an oxygen scavenger after preboiling the water to drive off oxygen. It's my understanding that i can use either KMB or SMB for this purpose.

Are you adding hydrogen peroxide for the oxygen? Because unless I don't understand this correctly, wouldn't the SMB work to remove it? Or are you doing it sequentially (SMB, then HP)?

Hi. I have not used SMB!

 

[bracconiere]

is that arabic? lol, no wonder you can't find brewing supplies! i haven't personally welcomed you to the forum! Welcome!

how big of batches are you doing? i do 20lbs at a time, and find passing back and forth between storage totes in front of a box fan (or i double stack two of them so i get more falling distance) makes it relatively easy....

(i've already gotten confused in this thread, i had you confused for maisch for some reason!)

 

[mongoose33]

Well I thought rootlets were the same as chits... And apparently there is a difference...

I thought the same thing as you. This drove me to pull out my "MALT" book and see what it says.

From page 56: As the barley begins to grow, the tiny rootlets--or "chits"--emerge from the end where the kernel was attached to the plant.

Then, on page 65: After kiln drying, the thin, brittle culms (rootlets) are easily broken off using deculming equipment and then sold as animal feed.

So apparently the terms "chit," "rootlet," and "culm" are used somewhat interchangeably. "Culm" would appear to be the term for after kilning, but I'm surmising that, not certain.

I've also seen reference, can't recall where, that a chit is the short, maybe 1/8" root as it emerges from the seed, but the rootlet is about as long as the seed or a little longer perhaps.

 

[Moezart]

is that arabic? lol, no wonder you can't find brewing supplies! i haven't personally welcomed you to the forum! Welcome!

how big of batches are you doing? i do 20lbs at a time, and find passing back and forth between storage totes in front of a box fan (or i double stack two of them so i get more falling distance) makes it relatively easy....

(i've already gotten confused in this thread, i had you confused for maisch for some reason!)

Well!!! Funny how yow picked up on the Arabic side although I tried to focus on the French part so may be you could understand it! But whatever. I Just don't get the lol!!!
Anyway. Because of the lack of everything that has to do with homebrew ING I have made my own Kiln, also my own make shift grain mill. My own fermenter and bottling buckets... There is a lot of struggle when you have to rig **** that readily available for most!!!
I think I ll be OK though[emoji4][emoji108]

 

[Moezart]

I thought the same thing as you. This drove me to pull out my "MALT" book and see what it says.

From page 56: As the barley begins to grow, the tiny rootlets--or "chits"--emerge from the end where the kernel was attached to the plant.

Then, on page 65: After kiln drying, the thin, brittle culms (rootlets) are easily broken off using deculming equipment and then sold as animal feed.

So apparently the terms "chit," "rootlet," and "culm" are used somewhat interchangeably. "Culm" would appear to be the term for after kilning, but I'm surmising that, not certain.

I've also seen reference, can't recall where, that a chit is the short, maybe 1/8" root as it emerges from the seed, but the rootlet is about as long as the seed or a little longer perhaps.

I know!!! Wtf... Why does it have to be so confusing???

All I wanted to know was whether leaving the rootlets on while mashing contributed to off-flavor!!! And holy ****... I feel like I am back in a chemistry class!!!! Lol...

 

[maisch]

Color me confused, but I suspect I'm going to learn something here.

I add Campden tablets (crushed) to my strike water to act as an oxygen scavenger after preboiling the water to drive off oxygen. It's my understanding that i can use either KMB or SMB for this purpose.

Are you adding hydrogen peroxide for the oxygen? Because unless I don't understand this correctly, wouldn't the SMB work to remove it? Or are you doing it sequentially (SMB, then HP)?

Adding them sequentially is the way to go. SMB reacts to remove chlorine and oxygen, H202 reacts with the water over the course of the steep to release O2 but it also bleaches the malt. Excess SMB and H202 react to "scrub" the malt, (i.e. produces a lot of sulfur dioxide).

If you want to experiment with this it's not necessary to use more than the 3% H202 that you get at the drug store. More isn't necessarily better. I haven't tried oxygenating the water with pure O2 but might be worth a try.

There's a balance though, too much sulfur and you'll get a peanut butter, nutty smell in the malt after kilning, which seems to dissipate over a couple weeks time.

Malts and Malting has some information on the addition of SMB and H2O2 to steep water, both of which were not highly regarded as profitable and to which the bleaching of the malt was the greater benefit.

 

[Moezart]

i read your link, and that's what i thought chiting was....I'm taking you to be saying that your green malt has some acrospires sticking out of them...?

i've only been malting for 3 years now, so i'm still not super good at it....what temp do you kiln at, and for how long? and, besides the malt...what temp are you fermenting at? if your in the southern hemisphere isn't it summer there now? did the temps go up recently for fermentation?


edit: thanks for the tip about h2o2...i'll have to stop by the garden center and get a gal of 30%!

edit 2: i looked up your handle and it's german...so i'm guessing your not in the southern hemisphere....

edit 3: and i always leave my chits on, or it would kill the grain during malting?

Hi actually I am in Tunisia.
I have a rigged up kiln (a wooden box with light bulbs) I kiln at 120 F ( come to think of it now that may be too hot)

 

[maisch]

Hi actually I am in Tunisia.
I have a rigged up kiln (a wooden box with light bulbs) I kiln at 120 F ( come to think of it now that may be too hot)

That's too cool. You're only drying the malt at that temperature and might explain some of the greenness.

I'd have to reference my copy of Malts and Malting but IIRC 155F+ would be a minimum kilning temperature for a very light pilsner style malt. In order to start kilning at such a low temperature you must dry the malt to < 8% moisture and for a very light malt you're going to want a little less moisture, say 6% such that you end at about 3-4% moisture content.

95F - 122F are considered drying temperatures (IOW - you're getting the moisture to the level you want at the start of kilning).

 

[Moezart]

That's too cool. You're only drying the malt at that temperature and might explain some of the greenness.

I'd have to reference my copy of Malts and Malting but IIRC 155F+ would be a minimum kilning temperature for a very light pilsner style malt. In order to start kilning at such a low temperature you must dry the malt to < 8% moisture and for a very light malt you're going to want a little less moisture, say 6% such that you end at about 3-4% moisture content.

95F - 122F are considered drying temperatures (IOW - you're getting the moisture to the level you want at the start of kilning).

Hmmm. I guess I had it wrong all this time. Well what I was doing was drying it at 120 to stop germination then I just brew with it without going to 155... Is that wrong?
Thanks.

 

[Moezart]

Hmmm. I guess I had it wrong all this time. Well what I was doing was drying it at 120 to stop germination then I just brew with it without going to 155... Is that wrong?
Thanks.

For my malting process I have been following this link http://beersmith.com/blog/2009/12/05/malting-barley-grain-at-home/

And it clearly says (in Finishing the Malt step) that after drying the grains I have base malt similar to what is sold in stores. Further steps with higher temperature are for specialty malts. From what I understand.
Thanks

 

[maisch]

Hmmm. I guess I had it wrong all this time. Well what I was doing was drying it at 120 to stop germination then I just brew with it without going to 155... Is that wrong?
Thanks.

It's not wrong but it also may not produce the best possible malt.

 

[Moezart]

It's not wrong but it also may not produce the best possible malt.

Thank you.

 

[bracconiere]

Hmmm. I guess I had it wrong all this time. Well what I was doing was drying it at 120 to stop germination then I just brew with it without going to 155... Is that wrong?
Thanks.

I think you need at least 150f, 'dry' heat to get rid of the green taste....the dry thing threw me for a loop, apparently in cooking dry heat is different than wet heat (i.e. boiling)

edit: i see it was said....and north africa...do you have box fans available for drying, and a oven for kilning? 120f seems too hot to dry, and not hot enough to kiln...

 

[Moezart]

I think you need at least 150f, 'dry' heat to get rid of the green taste....the dry thing threw me for a loop, apparently in cooking dry heat is different than wet heat (i.e. boiling)

edit: i see it was said....and north africa...do you have box fans available for drying, and a oven for kilning? 120f seems too hot to dry, and not hot enough to kiln...

I use a rigged up drier with light bulbs. I guess I could use 3 light bulbs instead of 4 if 120 is too much.

 

[bracconiere]

I use a rigged up drier with light bulbs. I guess I could use 3 light bulbs instead of 4 if 120 is too much.

what do you use for air flow? that's all i do to dry my malt...something like this and a box fan, might save you a dollar or so on electricity...

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=254082521012

what kind of oven do you have? if any? i modded mine with a toggle switch, and a 200ohm resistor, so that i could get it down to 150f....But worked fine for a few years to make munich malt without the mod...

as far as rootlets, i have brewed without removing them out of laziness a couple times...Didn't really notice anything different, but the beers were dark ones...

Just got a good idea from @November , some screen stapled to a 2x6 frame, and blow up with a shop vac (or in my case i'm planing on trying a leaf blower on low)

 

[Moezart]

what do you use for air flow? that's all i do to dry my malt...something like this and a box fan, might save you a dollar or so on electricity...

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=254082521012

what kind of oven do you have? if any? i modded mine with a toggle switch, and a 200ohm resistor, so that i could get it down to 150f....But worked fine for a few years to make munich malt without the mod...

as far as rootlets, i have brewed without removing them out of laziness a couple times...Didn't really notice anything different, but the beers were dark ones...

Just got a good idea from @November , some screen stapled to a 2x6 frame, and blow up with a shop vac (or in my case i'm planing on trying a leaf blower on low)

Hi there. Sorry for the delay, I didn't even get a notification for your response, sorry!

I just moved to a new apartment which has an oven that goes down to 122F. But, I am afraid of using it because, in my old apartment the oven was giving wrong temperatures I guess and it smoked out the whole place even the guards came up running thinking there was a fire... I ll tell you the whole smelled of burnt barley for weeks and weeks. Now I have home made kiln with light bulbs in the bottom. Something like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=diy...JRXJerMPSLjLsP3N252Aw13:0.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5

As for the rootlets, I ve done the same out of laziness myself. But I just had a doubt they may have caused the off-flavor I have been experiencing! And apparently rootlets have nothing to do with that.

Thanks for ideas and the support!

 

[bracconiere]

Hi there. Sorry for the delay, I didn't even get a notification for your response, sorry!

I just moved to a new apartment which has an oven that goes down to 122F. But, I am afraid of using it because, in my old apartment the oven was giving wrong temperatures I guess and it smoked out the whole place even the guards came up running thinking there was a fire... I ll tell you the whole smelled of burnt barley for weeks and weeks. Now I have home made kiln with light bulbs in the bottom. Something like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=diy...JRXJerMPSLjLsP3N252Aw13:0.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5

As for the rootlets, I ve done the same out of laziness myself. But I just had a doubt they may have caused the off-flavor I have been experiencing! And apparently rootlets have nothing to do with that.

Thanks for ideas and the support!

when i made beer and not remove the rootlets, it was 'dark' rootlets' because i only had an oven that went down to 170f, supposedly...but actually was at 205f...so they got pretty toasty in there....i use a 200ohm resistor on my oven temp probe to get the oven to go as low as 95f now...get me some, what i think is better than store bought bought pale that way, at IR confirmed 150f kilning...

Do they have box fans like this there?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Holmes-...4BDI2YO2iEtiI_kaHJxoCFRUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

and if so, i think just moving air will dry the malt good enough...and the oven will kiln it at 150f....have to double check the temp some how though.....

 

[Moezart]

when i made beer and not remove the rootlets, it was 'dark' rootlets' because i only had an oven that went down to 170f, supposedly...but actually was at 205f...so they got pretty toasty in there....i use a 200ohm resistor on my oven temp probe to get the oven to go as low as 95f now...get me some, what i think is better than store bought bought pale that way, at IR confirmed 150f kilning...

Do they have box fans like this there?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Holmes-...4BDI2YO2iEtiI_kaHJxoCFRUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

and if so, i think just moving air will dry the malt good enough...and the oven will kiln it at 150f....have to double check the temp some how though.....

Yes. I get one of those fans. You think using a box fan like this will dry the Malt? Don't I need a heat source to go wit it?

 

[Soulshine2]

Hello everyone out there.
So, I do malt my own grains at home, kiln them and grind them myself. (not by choice, but due to the unavailability of anything that has to do with home brewing where I live)
My question is has anyone ever tried to mill and mash home-made malt without separating it from its chits?
If so, I wonder that had any negative impact on the flavor and the aroma of the finished beer?

Se my last 2 batches had the same detergent-solvent-almost-bleachy sort of off-flavor... And I am going crazy trying to trace back what may have caused that?

I brew ales, mostly with us 05 yeast. I use food grade plastic buckets with rigged up spigots for fermentation....

Thanks a lot for any help...

I've malted my own barley when I was distilling. You need to remove the chits or it will affect flavor. All youre after is the grain itself and the sugars it produced while making the sprouts and rootlets. Simple window screen stretched across a frame , hand rub them dry until they fall off and through the screen.

 

[bracconiere]

Yes. I get one of those fans. You think using a box fan like this will dry the Malt? Don't I need a heat source to go wit it?

That's what i use..takes about 24 hours of air flow, then they are ready to be kilned at 150-170f depending on what kind of base malt your after...If your oven goes down to 122f on it's own your set! mine only went down to 170f, which after testing actually was 205f....Still made good beer, but dark...

before i knew malt had to be kilned it tasted like 'animal feed'...(which it was, and i gave up...then got back into it, and started kilning, now i like the taste of my homemalt better then store bought.)

I get good conversion this way with 20lb's getting me a ~1.060 10 gal OG...

edit: actually heat is bad for drying green malt, because you need to lock up the enzymes so they don't denature when kilning...

 

[bracconiere]

 

[Moezart]

That's what i use..takes about 24 hours of air flow, then they are ready to be kilned at 150-170f depending on what kind of base malt your after...If your oven goes down to 122f on it's own your set! mine only went down to 170f, which after testing actually was 205f....Still made good beer, but dark...

before i knew malt had to be kilned it tasted like 'animal feed'...(which it was, and i gave up...then got back into it, and started kilning, now i like the taste of my homemalt better then store bought.)

I get good conversion this way with 20lb's getting me a ~1.060 10 gal OG...

edit: actually heat is bad for drying green malt, because you need to lock up the enzymes so they don't denature when kilning...

Good to know!!! Hmm now you got me thinking. I am definitely going to revise my next malting... Il
I already have the barley, I am just going to approach a bit differently this time!
Thanks man!

 

[bracconiere]

Good to know!!! Hmm now you got me thinking. I am definitely going to revise my next malting... Il
I already have the barley, I am just going to approach a bit differently this time!
Thanks man!

Glad i/we could help!

 

[jssehart]

I just learned something! SMB, are you talking about sodium metabisulfite, or stump remover? damn i lost a batch to that crap trying to remove the chlorine from the beer, that i added to the malting tub water....trying to prevent bacterial growth in it...i found shorter soaks and, more breathing works a LOT better!

to the OP, don't listen to them when they say soak for 8 hours or overnight....i get rotten grains every time, just soak for about an hour or two, till the grains are wet...give them lots of air, and a quick 15 min soak every day after, till their ready to dry....i'm not sure if that's off topic?

I only soak once for 20 30 minutes in warm water then fluff and spray with water to keep moist until sprouts are at proper length
Then dry and kiln before grinding

 

[bracconiere]

I only soak once for 20 30 minutes in warm water then fluff and spray with water to keep moist until sprouts are at proper length
Then dry and kiln before grinding

Welcome fellow malter!

about what i do too....i give it an hour or two soak though.....

 

[Moezart]

Chiting is the beginning of the growth of both the acrospire and the rootlets. I've actually added hydrogen peroxide and SMB to the water not only to get rid of chlorine but to oxygenate the water for this stage. It made a big difference in the germination rate and rate of growth.

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/lb4bGtSzxK/

HI,
I am really interested in trying hydrogen peroxide for my next batch. Do you have an idea on how much of it I should use? And should it be added to the water every steeping phase or just the initial one?
Thanks a lot.

 

[Nanuk-O-Dah-Nort]

has anyone tried Starsan in the water?

 

[Nanuk-O-Dah-Nort]

Here's another thought
can the berries be germinated in a rotating drum? the idea is to pour the saturated berries in the drum, and let the drum turn them over/over/over.
Misting could be done if needed.
an old electric dryer would work, turning off the heat and fan until sprouted to correct length, then add air, and a bit of heat to dry.