HERMS coil mash Losses in BeerSmith

[jekeane]

I have had a few batches where my volume numbers have bounced around a bit and I'm not entirely sure why. Although, I assume user error at some point.

I am trying to better understand my equipment profile in beersmith when it pertains to losses.

My HERMS coil, pump and hoses hold .5 gallon of liquid.

In my equipment profile,

Should I be adding .5 gallon to the "Mash Tun Addition" cell?

Should I be adding .5 gallon to the "Lauter Tun Losses" cell?

 

[LarMoeCur]

I'm Ebenezer Scrooge when it comes to wort. I do not want to give away one drop not even to little Timmy. So, I pump my sparge water through the herms coil. I always heat up a few extra gallons of sparge water. I'm sparge until I get refractometer readings very close to 1.010. In my last 10 or so batches I've only had one batch (monster of an Imperial) that I had to boil for more than my usual 90 minutes.

Anyway back to the question. Pump through your coil and don't take a the loss. OR just account for it in the Lauter Tun Dead space cell.

 

[jekeane]

I'm Ebenezer Scrooge when it comes to wort. I do not want to give away one drop not even to little Timmy. So, I pump my sparge water through the herms coil. I always heat up a few extra gallons of sparge water. I'm sparge until I get refractometer readings very close to 1.010. In my last 10 or so batches I've only had one batch (monster of an Imperial) that I had to boil for more than my usual 90 minutes.

Anyway back to the question. Pump through your coil and don't take a the loss. OR just account for it in the Lauter Tun Dead space cell.

I do pump through my coil for fly sparging. but what i have been doing is if beer smith tells me sparge with 5 gallons I mark 5 gallons on my HLT sight glass and pump till I hit that mark. Am I right in assuming that I am then missing .5 gallons of sparge water with this method? Instead I should mark 5.5 gallons on my sight glass knowing that Im leaving behind .5 gallons of water in the coil and pump?

 

[LarMoeCur]

Yes, mark 5.5 to account for the lost .5.

 

[jmark]

Why not fly sparge until you hit your collection target in the BK? I completely ignore what BS tells me to sparge with... I just sparge until I've got my expected pre-boil volume. Given that I always have the correct pre-boil volume at the end of the sparge and now have a gravity reading, BS can calculate the efficiency from that quite readily.

 

[augiedoggy]

Why not fly sparge until you hit your collection target in the BK? I completely ignore what BS tells me to sparge with... I just sparge until I've got my expected pre-boil volume. Given that I always have the correct pre-boil volume at the end of the sparge and now have a gravity reading, BS can calculate the efficiency from that quite readily.

this is what i do.. I do use the beersmith numbers for reference. but I sparge until I have the correct preboil.

 

[RoadKing]

I put the loss under, Boil and Fermentation-Trub loss.
I also fly sparge to volume. Beersmith likes to run the mash tun dry, where I like to maintain 2-3 inches on top of the grain,
for the entire sparge. The easiest way is to use twice the amount of water you mashed with.

 

[jekeane]

this is what i do.. I do use the beersmith numbers for reference. but I sparge until I have the correct preboil.

Is there no downside to this? It was my understanding that if I was fly sparging and needed to sparge with 5 gallons but ran 6 gallons into the grain bed and just cut it off when i hit my pre boil that I was going to dilute my runoff more than necessary. Not sure where i picked that thought up.

 

[jmark]

It might be harder to do this with really low gravity styles like milds or traditional Berliners, but for most styles, there's no real downside. Just make sure your runnings don't fall below around 1.010 (to avoid tannins) and you'll be fine. If you measure your preboil gravity a few minutes into the boil (that ensures the wort is evenly mixed) and plug that in, BeerSmith will spit out your mash efficiency... use that to help dial-in your next beer. If you happen to have diluted wort (i.e. lower gravity than expected) based on your original BS calculations, just add a bit of DME to counter that. If it's higher, then hey, free wort... take some and replace with water.

 

[RoadKing]

You just don't want to sparge below .008. You can extract tannins from the grain.

 

[augiedoggy]

Is there no downside to this? It was my understanding that if I was fly sparging and needed to sparge with 5 gallons but ran 6 gallons into the grain bed and just cut it off when i hit my pre boil that I was going to dilute my runoff more than necessary. Not sure where i picked that thought up.

Im confused by this... If your cutting off when you hit preboil then what does it matter how much water is still in the mash tun if any... you were taking the best of the sparge water from the bottom to reach your preboil and once you do the rest is waste so? I average 86% efficiency so..

like I said I use the BS numbers for reference so if it says I should be adding 6 gallons of sparge water than I add AT least 6 gallons but I close the valve and stop filling my ktle when I reach the est preboil

 

[jekeane]

Im confused by this... If your cutting off when you hit preboil then what does it matter how much water is still in the mash tun if any... you were taking the best of the sparge water from the bottom to reach your preboil and once you do the rest is waste so? I average 86% efficiency so..

While the best from the bottom I'm sure is true to a degree. What I'm thinking is the water is going to mix and dilute the wort inevitably right? Im fly sparging for about 35-45 minutes. It seems to me that the few times that I did it where I had a couple gallons left in my mash but had reached my preboil i wound up under gravity. I just put the blame on over diluting with my sparge water. As I said that is just what I assume not what I know to be true.

I adjusted my numbers based on thoughts here and on the beer smith forums and hopefully will get a brew in next week to try them out.

 

[augiedoggy]

While the best from the bottom I'm sure is true to a degree. What I'm thinking is the water is going to mix and dilute the wort inevitably right? Im fly sparging for about 35-45 minutes. It seems to me that the few times that I did it where I had a couple gallons left in my mash but had reached my preboil i wound up under gravity. I just put the blame on over diluting with my sparge water. As I said that is just what I assume not what I know to be true.

I adjusted my numbers based on thoughts here and on the beer smith forums and hopefully will get a brew in next week to try them out.

No it shouldnt really mix if your adding the water at the same slow gentle rate as its draining it pretty much rinses it like taking a shower using gravity... now if your using a stainless basket for your grain all bets are off because the water isnt evenly taking the same path... but most people dont sparge with those as they are for BIAB. I drain and add water at about 1 gpm on my flow meter... I really dont fly sparge like most im more of less rinsing the grain bed.... it takes me about 5-10 minutes to sparge with my setup and hit 86% avg efficiency so no need. I think the recirculating during the mash period helps with this because it aids in dissolving sugars.

 

[jcav]

I usually fly sparge for an hour or so, with a few inches of water on top of the grain the entire time. I just keep sparging until I collect my pre boil volume like Kal recommends in his step by step brew day instructions, since I built a fairly close clone of his system. It works excellent for me and I always hit my numbers. If you are making a very low gravity beer or crazy high gravity beer then some adjustment is necessary but for most styles it works awesome.

Edit: I also use BeerSmith but I disregard what it tells me to sparge with since I stop when my pre boil volume is collected.

John

 

[RoadKing]

This is an illustration of how the fly sparge works. The water on top pushes the heavier sugar in the wort down evenly. ( Illustration from here on HBT)

 

[jcav]

Nice illustration RoadKing. I read that you could have 20 gallons of water sitting on top of your grain, or an endless amount of water and it doesn't matter. As long as you have a good false bottom and no crazy channeling the water pushes the sugar down like a piston, and when you reach your pre boil volume then you can stop. You really can't make a mistake and have too much water sitting on top of the grain as long as you stop when you reach the pre boil volume.

John

 

[Yooper]

Is there no downside to this? It was my understanding that if I was fly sparging and needed to sparge with 5 gallons but ran 6 gallons into the grain bed and just cut it off when i hit my pre boil that I was going to dilute my runoff more than necessary. Not sure where i picked that thought up.

As the others said, since it works by diffusion, you actually don't want your grainbed to go dry.

But, there IS a downside, at least for me. I acidify my sparge water, or use 100% RO water. I don't have a big enough HLT to do that with all of the water that I would use if I kept my MLT with enough prepared water over the grainbed.

So I've usually just batch sparged and been done with it. It's faster, and uses less water since I'm running my grainbed dry.

I, like the others, do run the sparge water through the HERMS coil. And, at the end, I run water from the HLT through the CFC coil, so that I get every bit of precious wort out of the coils (plus running sparge water through the HERMS coil cleans it before the boil, so that's less to do later). I run all 7-8 gallons of hot sparge water through the HERMS coil whether I fly sparge or batch sparge.

Then, the HLT and HERMS coil are already cleaned before I start on the MLT to clean. I then put the first hot water out of the CFC into the HLT and that is the water I use for cleaning the BK and running through the CFC to clean that once the wort is chilled. That then pushes the wort in the CFC into the fermenter for me and then I close the ball valve. It's pretty efficient,

 

[jcav]

That is a good point Yooper. I also acidify my sparge water. With some recipes near the end I don't have water sitting on top of the grain bed as I run out and that is ok, but I try to keep the level on top for as long as I can.

John

 

[augiedoggy]

That is a good point Yooper. I also acidify my sparge water. With some recipes near the end I don't have water sitting on top of the grain bed as I run out and that is ok, but I try to keep the level on top for as long as I can.

John

Same here as far as water level at the end of the sparge. This is why I always pump an extra gallon or two of sparge water and knowing I won't use it. I've never really slowed my sparge down to take longer than 15 minutes but I wonder what kind of games I could possibly get over the 86% average I have now? Don't get me wrong I've had beers with efficiencies as low as the seventies but also as high as the nineties. However now that I've become more consistent with my process my average has stayed rate about 86%.

 

[RoadKing]

As the others said, since it works by diffusion, you actually don't want your grainbed to go dry.

Damn, diffusion is the word I was looking for. It wouldn't come to me.

 

[jcav]

86% is a great average to have. Nothing wrong with that at all! I heat my strike water up in the mash tun and run it through the herms coil at the same time as I heat up the water in the HLT, so I have plenty usually to start with. Depends on the recipe.

John

 

[day_trippr]

If discussing how fly sparging works, it's not diffusion - that would screw up the whole function.
It's displacement...

Cheers!