Help with my 12% Barleywine

[tknice]

I brewed a 10 gal barleywine Sunday and was shooting for 1.114 and ended up at 1.104 split into 2 carboys. Each carboy received 3 packets of SAF-05 rehydrated yeast and fermentation temps are around 67 degrees (ambient). The beer temps are sitting between 71-72 right now and blowoff activity is still very good after 40 hours.

I also have a satellite sample in the chamber which I tested this morning and it's already down to 1.060.

My my plan was to wait till fermentation slows considerably and add a 1/2 lb corn sugar (heated in .5 cup water) into each carboy. My guess is it will be around the 3 day mark. I'll add another 1/2 lb two days from then and raise the temp slightly at each point. Also, adding the lb corn sugar should get me back up to the 12% I was shooting for originally, but I guess I shouldnt add it if it's not necessary.

So.. I'd love to get your thoughts on what gravity reading would warrant adding the sugar and the timing of when to add it. Also, should I swirl the carboy a little when the sugar is added to get some of the yeast back into suspension? I've never done this before and worry about off flavors that could come from it though it seems like it could be good to help attenuation. I'm looking to get down in the 1.022-1.025 range.

Oh, and I'm prepared for a loooong fermentation and don't expect the quick 3 weeks that I'm used to.

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Double_D]

It sounds like you have a pretty good plan there already. But why are you using corn sugar instead of dme?

 

[tknice]

It sounds like you have a pretty good plan there already. But why are you using corn sugar instead of dme?

hey Double.. I read that yeast love corn sugar and it has a greater chance of fermenting completely without much flavor contribution. Either would probably work fine though.

 

[sweetcell]

corn sugar is easier for the yeast to consume. they may already be stressed by the alcohol in the brew, so corn sugar is easier on them. corn sugar will contribute nothing to taste or body - pure sugar = pure alcohol. it also dries out the beer, instead of adding more maltiness. if all 12% of the alcohol comes from malts you'll end up with a really heavy beer. as the belgians say, sugar makes a strong beer "digestible".

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO a "satellite sample" is nigh on useless. The gravity readings won't mirror whats in the larger fermenters. You're better off giving it at least a few weeks and then check the gravity of the real fermenters.

Personally, I don't use any satellite fermenters no matter what the OG is. Same rule for everything I ferment.

I've also gotten past the urge to check the SG of a beer until it's ready to either go to servjng keg or to aging keg. Knowing how the yeast strain(s) you use work is key there.

My 12% wee heavy went 8 weeks in primary and has been sitting with oak cubes in it for the past 10 weeks. After the OG I have yet to even check the gravity. I see no need to until I'm closer to when it will go to carbonating keg. I KNOW that won't happen for at least a few more months, so a gravity reading doesn't mean so much.

 

[sweetcell]

there is some value in taking samples along the way - shows you how the brew is evolving.

also, after a month you're almost certainly at FG. the yeast have likely gone dormant by then. the beer continues to mature but fermentation is done.

 

[bigbeergeek]

if all 12% of the alcohol comes from malts you'll end up with a really heavy beer. as the belgians say, sugar makes a strong beer "digestible".

I advise to skip the corn sugar in a barley wine... thinning out the body will turn your barley wine into an Imperial IPA. Your beer will have plenty of alcohol without it. The chewy, rich maltiness of barley wine is derived from an all malt grist (perhaps with a tiny sugar addition if your system is prone to attenuation problems). BJCP's FG range allows the beer to finish as high as 1.030, which is darn sweet indeed, but appropriate for a barley wine.

Barley wine ain't no belgian tripel, neither!

 

[tknice]

I advise to skip the corn sugar in a barley wine... thinning out the body will turn your barley wine into an Imperial IPA. Your beer will have plenty of alcohol without it. The chewy, rich maltiness of barley wine is derived from an all malt grist (perhaps with a tiny sugar addition if your system is prone to attenuation problems). BJCP's FG range allows the beer to finish as high as 1.030, which is darn sweet indeed, but appropriate for a barley wine.

Barley wine ain't no belgian tripel, neither!

Right on.. thanks for the feedback guys.

I didn't know about BJCP FG allowance, that makes me feel better. I definitely don't want it to be dry either--like you said, that's not the goal. Since I haven't made a barley wine before, I'm kind of flying by the seat of my pants here. Let's see... if it finishes at 1.030 that would be 9.7%. 1.025 would be around 10.3%. There were around 6-7oz of hops so hopefully that will balance the sweetness enough.

I should also mention that I'm going to soak medium french oak chips in a cup of bourbon and rack each 5 gallon on top. It will soak in the kegs until Christmas.

 

[Golddiggie]

I've used chips, cubes and now honeycomb toasted wood in batches (the honeycomb batch is still in process) and IMO cubes are far better than chips. Especially for bigger brews that are going to sit on them for a while.

Chips can give more up front but it will chage (significantly) over time. Cubes are far more stable. I would use 3oz of cubes per 5 gallons. My wee heavy (~6 gallons) is sitting on 3oz of medium toast Hungarian oak cubes now. My old ale is sitting with 8" of medium toast cherrywood honeycomb in it.

BTW, did you go for an English or American barley wine?

 

[tknice]

I've used chips, cubes and now honeycomb toasted wood in batches (the honeycomb batch is still in process) and IMO cubes are far better than chips. Especially for bigger brews that are going to sit on them for a while.

Chips can give more up front but it will chage (significantly) over time. Cubes are far more stable. I would use 3oz of cubes per 5 gallons. My wee heavy (~6 gallons) is sitting on 3oz of medium toast Hungarian oak cubes now. My old ale is sitting with 8" of medium toast cherrywood honeycomb in it.

BTW, did you go for an English or American barley wine?

It's an American barley wine. I was thinking of using 1oz of chips in 1 cup of bourbon for each 5 gallons. I really don't want a strong oak taste--just something in the background and it will have time to mellow. My guess is I'll let one of the kegs go till Christmas and the other for a full year.

I'll look into the chips vs cubes decision. I've never used either so I'm not sure. thanks for the info.


Here's the recipe I made if you're interested. It's set up for a 60 minute boil but I didn't hit my post boil volume until about 75 minutes.

Recipe: Hard Target
Brewer: tknice
Asst Brewer: Pleepleus
Style: American Barleywine
Type: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.46 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.96 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.42 gal
Estimated OG: 1.114 SG
Estimated Color: 19.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 94.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 57.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
1.00 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 90.0 mins) Water Agent 1
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 mins Water Agent
30 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 67.0 %
6 lbs Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4 13.4 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.4 %
4.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 0.6 %
1.50 oz Centennial [9.70 %] - First Wort 75.0 mi Hop 29.7 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 41.2 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [9.70 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 14.5 IBUs
1 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining
2.50 oz Centennial [9.70 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9.0 IBUs
6.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast
5 lbs Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 11.2 %
2 lbs Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 4.5 %

Mash Schedule: BIAB, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 44 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Saccharification Add 10.73 gal of water at 170.6 F 156.0 F 90 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 7 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Remove grains, and prepare to boil wort

Notes:
------
Fermentation:
Brew on Sunday
66F until Wed add 1 lb sugar (.5 to each)
Rise to 68F until Fri, add 1 lb sugar (.5 to each)
Hold till Sat, then reset the schedule 71-75 rise each day

Oak & Bourbon:
Boil chips for 10 mins to sanitize.
Soak 1oz oak chips in 1 cup bourbon during primary (x2 for 10 gal).
Pour chips and bourbon into 1 gal paint strainer bag (over keg).
Tie off bag and toss in.
Rack beer on top.

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com

 

[sweetcell]

you did a 45 lbs BIAB?!?

gawdang i hope you have a winch/pulley over your mash-tun...

 

[Golddiggie]

No need to boil the chips/cubes since you're going to soak them in bourbon. With the long soak time I would go with cubes and pull a taste sample after a couple of months. Even if you only use an ounce in each (which is really light).

I'm finding that bigger beers benefit more from more wood additions. For one thing, a tiny addition will get lost among all the malt and hop flavors.

Why the sugar additions?

 

[tknice]

you did a 45 lbs BIAB?!?

gawdang i hope you have a winch/pulley over your mash-tun...

haha.. I think it adds the DME in there for the recipe. It was really only like 38 lbs--still heavy as Sh$%.. I had to put a gorilla ladder over top of it and pull from above! lol

No need to boil the chips/cubes since you're going to soak them in bourbon. With the long soak time I would go with cubes and pull a taste sample after a couple of months. Even if you only use an ounce in each (which is really light).

I'm finding that bigger beers benefit more from more wood additions. For one thing, a tiny addition will get lost among all the malt and hop flavors.

Why the sugar additions?

Thanks golddiggie. I'll think more about the oak and decide what to do. The sugar in the recipe is the corn sugar I mentioned earlier. I won't put it in unless I have to.

 

[Getzinator]

+1 to corn sugar possibly thinning the body, especially that much of it. (2 lbs total if I read correctly?) Maybe split that with DME or something else.

Also: On your additions, what is the purpose of staggering the sugar? Personally it seems like you're just opening it up to more oxidation than necessary. Why not all in one day, if you end up doing the additions?

 

[tknice]

+1 to corn sugar possibly thinning the body, especially that much of it. (2 lbs total if I read correctly?) Maybe split that with DME or something else.

Also: On your additions, what is the purpose of staggering the sugar? Personally it seems like you're just opening it up to more oxidation than necessary. Why not all in one day, if you end up doing the additions?

It's 1lb for each 5 gallon carboy. Again, I'm not sure about this at all. I'm just concerned about a stuck fermentation and want to be ready with alternatives. I read about a few people doing dogfish 120 clones and other higher ABV beers and they all seem to use sugar staggered during fermentation. I think the idea is by adding highly fermentable corn sugar in small doses, the yeast will also consume more Maltose and Maltotriose sugars that would have been left behind.

I'm probably wrong here, but I've always thought of "dry" as coming from a low final gravity (relative from where you started) and it doesn't matter if you use corn sugar or something else to lower it a few points. The trick is getting the FG correct for the style or taste you want.

 

[Golddiggie]

I seriously doubt that 1# per 5 gallons of fermenting beer will make too big an impact. But, you could also substitute it for some other items that don't ferment as fully. Or things that are also have other impurities, or elements that will give some flavor to the brew (no matter how slight).

I tend to favor honey in that aspect. You could also try using cane sugar instead of corn sugar. Cane sugar will leave a little residual sweetness, to offset the high percentage of fermenting sugars. When I was still bottling, I was using that for my priming solution sugar. I got good carbonation with a little extra somethin somthin in the brews too.

Now that I keg, I don't care so much about priming sugar. But, I do still like having other things available instead of corn sugar. I've been known to toss some honey into a batch, after about a week into fermentation, to help reach my target. As long as you do it carefully, you minimize the risk of oxidation. While it's still actively fermenting, the risk is reduced even further. Just be careful to not take too long, or leave the fermenter open for any longer than you must. Otherwise you run the risk of contamination/infection. With a big brew, that's something I'd worry about more.

 

[tknice]

I seriously doubt that 1# per 5 gallons of fermenting beer will make too big an impact. But, you could also substitute it for some other items that don't ferment as fully. Or things that are also have other impurities, or elements that will give some flavor to the brew (no matter how slight).

I tend to favor honey in that aspect. You could also try using cane sugar instead of corn sugar. Cane sugar will leave a little residual sweetness, to offset the high percentage of fermenting sugars. When I was still bottling, I was using that for my priming solution sugar. I got good carbonation with a little extra somethin somthin in the brews too.

Now that I keg, I don't care so much about priming sugar. But, I do still like having other things available instead of corn sugar. I've been known to toss some honey into a batch, after about a week into fermentation, to help reach my target. As long as you do it carefully, you minimize the risk of oxidation. While it's still actively fermenting, the risk is reduced even further. Just be careful to not take too long, or leave the fermenter open for any longer than you must. Otherwise you run the risk of contamination/infection. With a big brew, that's something I'd worry about more.

Agreed. I rarely open my fermenters except maybe to dry hop and that is when fermentation is over so its not that risky. I'm really leaning toward seeing how these beers finish on their own.

I know I asked about swirling the carboy a little to get some of that yeast back in suspension. I don't really want to mess with the krausen but maybe a little side to side action may be helpful.

Do you guys ever do that?

 

[Double_D]

If I'm trying to rouse yeast I just transfer it to another vessel via syphon tube. Then I don't have to worry about a whole lot.

 

[Golddiggie]

Agreed. I rarely open my fermenters except maybe to dry hop and that is when fermentation is over so its not that risky. I'm really leaning toward seeing how these beers finish on their own.

I know I asked about swirling the carboy a little to get some of that yeast back in suspension. I don't really want to mess with the krausen but maybe a little side to side action may be helpful.

Do you guys ever do that?

I don't swirl my beers. I have done it with my meads when they're just getting going, but after a short time, I don't even do it then (after the 1/3 break point).

With no fermentation going, you run more risk of oxidizing the brew. It's not so easy to get it, if you're careful/smart (don't need to get super paranoid over it). Just be aware that any time you introduce ambient atmosphere into the brew, by pouring something into it, you could introduce oxygen and oxidize it. Especially if fermentation is finished. If you're adding sugars for the yeast to eat, and it's still actively fermenting, the risk is greatly reduced.

If I'm trying to rouse yeast I just transfer it to another vessel via syphon tube. Then I don't have to worry about a whole lot.

What?? So you're trying to rouse the yeast by getting the brew OFF the yeast??? Just transferring from one vessel to another won't do much to kick up fermentation again, unless you're racking onto a source of sugars for the carried yeast to consume.

 

[sweetcell]

I know I asked about swirling the carboy a little to get some of that yeast back in suspension. I don't really want to mess with the krausen but maybe a little side to side action may be helpful.

Do you guys ever do that?

i am a habitual yeast-rouser. if you still have krausen, then there isn't much point in swirling IMO since things are still active in there. i tend to rouse when i want to un-floc the yeast - like if i've risen the temp and want to get the yeasties going again.

 

[tknice]

i am a habitual yeast-rouser. if you still have krausen, then there isn't much point in swirling IMO since things are still active in there. i tend to rouse when i want to un-floc the yeast - like if i've risen the temp and want to get the yeasties going again.

I like this idea although I've never done it. Most of my average abv beers tend to finish around 1.012-1.014 so I never really thought about it. Seems like a great way to get it closer to where you want.

So you just swirl it around lightly after the krausen has dropped but not so much to avoid the dreaded cardboard off flavor?

 

[Double_D]

No, I transfer the yeast with it. It wouldn't do any good leaving the yeast behind. If you put your siphon tube all the way down to the bottom of the bucket it sucks the yeast up too.

 

[Golddiggie]

No, I transfer the yeast with it. It wouldn't do any good leaving the yeast behind. If you put your siphon tube all the way down to the bottom of the bucket it sucks the yeast up too.

Meh... Never needed to do that for a beer. I make it a point to transfer clean when I transfer. Of course, the majority of the time, that's to a serving keg. The other times it's to an aging vessel, so I don't want any yeast brought over. I also leave the batch in primary long enough to know that the yeast has done all it's going to. I typically either nail my target, or get close enough that I'm happy.

 

[Double_D]

My point was to offer another method other than stirring or swirling. I've only had the problem once and that's what I used.

 

[sweetcell]

So you just swirl it around lightly after the krausen has dropped but not so much to avoid the dreaded cardboard off flavor?

i keep my fermenters closed as much as possible. thus the inside of the carboy is filled with CO2, not oxygen. splashing beer around in a CO2-filled container could only inject more CO2 into the beer. even if there was O2 in there, a little bit of splashing is not going to affect the brew. in summary: risk of off-flavors from a little swirling and tilting of the fermenter borders on nil.

i get a gentle circular swirling motion going, enough to disturb the yeast bed and get some wisps into suspension. i use glass carboys so it's easy to see the impact of my swirling.

 

[bwomp313]

I like this idea although I've never done it. Most of my average abv beers tend to finish around 1.012-1.014 so I never really thought about it. Seems like a great way to get it closer to where you want.

So you just swirl it around lightly after the krausen has dropped but not so much to avoid the dreaded cardboard off flavor?

for regular abv beers I really don't think you should be swirling. The yeast know what they're doing. They are our masters.

 

[sweetcell]

for regular abv beers I really don't think you should be swirling.

why not? what's the down-side to re-suspending the yeast, other than re-clouding the beer??

 

[bwomp313]

oxidation. pushing the nice CO2 blanket off of the top of the beer. It's unnecessary. If you have healthy yeast, pitch enough of it and ferment at proper temps there is absolutely no reason to have to do this. Where's Revvy?

 

[sweetcell]

there is little to no chance of oxidation. you aren't exposing enough beer to enough oxygen, for long enough, for it to have an effect. keep the fermentor closed, and there likely isn't any O2 in there in the first place (or if there is, only very little - the CO2 produced during fermentation should have pushed out the lighter O2).

 

[bigbeergeek]

Cane sugar will leave a little residual sweetness, to offset the high percentage of fermenting sugars. When I was still bottling, I was using that for my priming solution sugar. I got good carbonation with a little extra somethin somthin in the brews too.

This might be off topic, but sucrose doesn't leave any kind of "somethin somethin" in the beer. It will ferment just as fully as dextrose.

 

[sweetcell]

This might be off topic, but sucrose doesn't leave any kind of "somethin somethin" in the beer. It will ferment just as fully as dextrose.

i could be wrong, but i believe the idea here is that brown cane sugar isn't pure sucrose (i'm assuming he meant brown, 'cause white cane sugar will indeed ferment out as completely as any other pure sugar).

 

[bigbeergeek]

i could be wrong, but i believe the idea here is that brown cane sugar isn't pure sucrose (i'm assuming he meant brown, 'cause white cane sugar will indeed ferment out as completely as any other pure sugar).

Most "cane sugar" isn't brown, and as we know it's simply table sugar with a small measure of molasses added back to the finished sugar. A few ounces of brown sugar isn't going to change the flavor of a 5 gallon batch of beer on bottling day anyway, IMO.

End off topic discussion.

 

[Golddiggie]

This might be off topic, but sucrose doesn't leave any kind of "somethin somethin" in the beer. It will ferment just as fully as dextrose.

I've found that RAW cane sugar does leave something behind. I cannot explain it since the yeast will eat pretty much all of it. But, IMO/IME its far better than using bleached white corn sugar.

 

[bigbeergeek]

I've found that RAW cane sugar does leave something behind. I cannot explain it since the yeast will eat pretty much all of it. But, IMO/IME its far better than using bleached white corn sugar.

I've never brewed with raw cane sugar, but I've tasted it many times -- tastes nearly identical to the bleached stuff to me. But to each their own! Leave all the sugars outta the barleywine and you'll be good to go.

 

[Golddiggie]

In the end, I wouldn't add cane sugar to a barley wine, or BIG brew either. I'm not brewing Belgian's, so it really isn't needed for anything I'm brewing.

Also, I would carbonate, or make the target, the middle of the style. If you're concerned about it creeping up in carbonation (a possibility) then target the lower end of the scale for the style. IMO, bigger brews are better with lower carbonation. My 8% mocha porter was better at lower carbonation levels. Easily done since I kegged half of it (back before I started kegging all of each batch).