Help with IPA Critique.. Going for Juicy NE style

[frettfreak]

Looking for some feedback. Have been reading all i can about he NE style IPA and hopfully this will get me close. Let me know what you think. I made a variation of this recipe last week, but even just tasting the sample from primary its not what i was going for. Good, but not a NE style IPA. I change the water chemistry a bit for this one with more Chloride and less sulfate.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.77 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.066 SG
Estimated Color: 5.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Water Prep:
My water profile will be a 50/50 split with my filtered tap water and RO water with the finished profile looking something like this:

phosphoric acid to hit mash PH of 5.3
Calcium 122
Magnesium 2.5
Sodium 36
Sulfate 79
Chloride 183

MASH
9 lbs Brewer's Malt, 2-Row, Premium (Great Western) 65.5 %
3 lbs White Wheat Malt (Great Western) 21.8 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM) 10.9 %
4.0 oz Crystal, Light (Simpsons) (35.0 SRM) 1.8 %


HOPS
0.50 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min 19.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min 3.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Boil 1.0 min 1.1 IBUs
0.75 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min 1.3 IBUs
1.25 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 1.0 min 1.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 4.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 3.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 3.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30 min 1.4 IBUs

Yeast
1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) - Might go with Conan / Barbarian / Vermont Ale cause I have it harvested, but really want to try this strain.

1.5L starter

Dry Hop

3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.50 oz Mosaic [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days


Misc Notes
"1 Min" hops are actually flame out i just hate that beersmith calculates ZERO ibu's for them so i put them at 1 min.

The Whirlpool hops will not be added until the wort reaches 180 (should be about 15 min) and will sit for 30 min

The dry hops will be split into 2 additions with the first being towards the tail end of primary (but still actively fermenting). Other will be in the flushed keg or still in primary AFTER fermentation has completed. I always get a grassy / green taste if i leave my hops in more than 3 days so thats why Its not longer (that and i have seen enough data to be convinced that longer dry hop doesn't mean more hop aroma).

I already have everything except the yeast on hand and will be brewing the beginning of next week.

 

[Shawn0522]

Looking for some feedback. Have been reading all i can about he NE style IPA and hopfully this will get me close. Let me know what you think. I made a variation of this recipe last week, but even just tasting the sample from primary its not what i was going for. Good, but not a NE style IPA. I change the water chemistry a bit for this one with more Chloride and less sulfate.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.77 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.066 SG
Estimated Color: 5.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 42.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Water Prep:
My water profile will be a 50/50 split with my filtered tap water and RO water with the finished profile looking something like this:

phosphoric acid to hit mash PH of 5.3
Calcium 122
Magnesium 2.5
Sodium 36
Sulfate 79
Chloride 183

MASH
9 lbs Brewer's Malt, 2-Row, Premium (Great Western) 65.5 %
3 lbs White Wheat Malt (Great Western) 21.8 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM) 10.9 %
4.0 oz Crystal, Light (Simpsons) (35.0 SRM) 1.8 %


HOPS
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min 17.1 IBUs
0.75 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Boil 15.0 min 9.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min 1.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min 1.3 IBUs
0.75 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 1.0 mi1.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Boil 1.0 min 0.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 4.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 3.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 3.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 3 Hop 1.4 IBUs

Yeast
1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) - Might go with Conan cause i have it harvested, but really want to try this strain.

1.5L starter

Dry Hop

2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days


Misc Notes
"1 Min" hops are actually flame out i just hate that beersmith calculates ZERO ibu's for them so i put them at 1 min.

The Whirlpool hops will not be added until the wort reaches 180 (should be about 15 min) and will sit for 30 min

The dry hops will be split into 2 additions with the first being towards the tail end of primary. Other will be in secondary or the keg. I always get a grassy / green taste if i leave my hops in more than 3 days so thats why Its not longer (that and i have seen enough data to be convinced that longer dry hop doesnt mean more hop aroma).

I already have everything except the yeast on hand and will be brewing the beginning of next week.

Similiar to an IPA i did recently that came out great. Only thing i would suggest is skipping secondary and go straight to keg. When i kegged my beer it was great but then dropped off in a hurry. Still good but not as good as it started. With this much late hops i think its affected quickly by any oxygen. I dont think secondary is worth the extra oxygen exposure. I do same thing with my dry hopping. Just my thoughts. This beer sounds delicious!!!

 

[Staylow]

I've been doing a lot of research on this style as of late. It seems that the key to the cloudy appearance is in hop/yeast interaction, and as such, the first round of dry hops go in while active fermentation is going on, then the second round a couple days before kegging. Also, I see where a lot of people are going with a 1 week fermentation time.

I have yet to put this to the test, but will soon.

As far as recipe critique goes, I'd move all those hops to 5 minutes or less, and use a small bittering charge to get the targeted IBU's. Also, this style seems to call for 6-8 ounces of dry hops from what I've seen. Also, you may consider using malted oats in place of the flaked. I read about Tired Hands doing this in their IPA's.

 

[frettfreak]

Similiar to an IPA i did recently that came out great. Only thing i would suggest is skipping secondary and go straight to keg. When i kegged my beer it was great but then dropped off in a hurry. Still good but not as good as it started. With this much late hops i think its affected quickly by any oxygen. I dont think secondary is worth the extra oxygen exposure. I do same thing with my dry hopping. Just my thoughts. This beer sounds delicious!!!

Honestly was contemplating no secondary but have never NOT done one. I will try it and see how it goes. I was concerned with oxygen, but was thinking i would just flush a carboy with CO2. Will just go to keg and see! Thanks.

I've been doing a lot of research on this style as of late. It seems that the key to the cloudy appearance is in hop/yeast interaction, and as such, the first round of dry hops go in while active fermentation is going on, then the second round a couple days before kegging. Also, I see where a lot of people are going with a 1 week fermentation time.

I have yet to put this to the test, but will soon.

As far as recipe critique goes, I'd move all those hops to 5 minutes or less, and use a small bittering charge to get the targeted IBU's. Also, this style seems to call for 6-8 ounces of dry hops from what I've seen. Also, you may consider using malted oats in place of the flaked. I read about Tired Hands doing this in their IPA's.

You know, i honestly dont care if its "cloudy" or hazy, its the mouthfeel and juiciness i am after. IMO, the cloudiness is a byproduct of achieving these goals. I dont think rushing these beers out the door too fast is how any of these breweries built their rep, and not really wanting to rush it if its not going to get me a better beer. I get what your saying, and i could be completely wrong, i just doubt it.

The 15 min charge gets me to my target ibu's so i didn't think it was necessary for a typical "bittering" charge. I have used this technique in some hoppy pales and IPA's and gotten a nice smooth bitter. that was my thoughts at least. Why would using hops at 60 (or FW) be better?

More dry hops certainly wouldn't hurt so why not!. will adjust for 6oz total and see how that goes i think!

By malted oats do you mean something like Golden Naked oats? I have those on hand but not sure thats what you mean. I have used them in LOTS and love them, but they definitely are not like flaked oats. Gonna have to check that out for sure.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

I'm looking to brew a NE style IPA as well.. Please keep us updated as to how this turns out!

 

[hottpeper13]

Your sulfate to chloride ratio is backwards for an IPA from anywhere. I'm still trying different ones each time and so far 100 ppm chloride and 300 ppm sulfate gives a smooth bitterness and brighter hops flavor. Now i'm checking if a higher ratio will make the b rightness last longer in the keg.

 

[lilbova3]

All looks pretty good to me. What's your mash temp going to be? I've found mashing high, at 156*, really helps with mouthfeel.

I've made this style my last three times brewing, and plan my next two brews to be NE style with different hops, and have upped the flaked grain to 30% and mashed higher and higher until finding the sweet spot at 156*.

I would also skip secondary. Throw first round of hops in around days 5-7. Leave for 5-7 days. Then rack to keg with second round of dry hops, bagged of course, in keg.

If you can, definitely use 1318. It's awesome with these types of beer. Only expect 71-75% attenuation though.

Here's a pic of what my most recent one looked like. Same beer just different angles.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471084711.552739.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471084724.788503.jpg

 

[elburrogrande]

I've brewed several of these. I would repeat what has been said. Skip the secondary. These beers shouldn't need to ferment longer than 14 days and should be drank within 2 weeks after that. You will see a rapid decline in quality. I start drinking and sharing on day 17. I would also go with crystal 15. The only other concern is that you're bittering with citra which normally doesn't produce good results. Everything else looks good. I would drop first dry hop on day 3 leave for 5 days then pull out. Dry hop again on day 11. keg it on day 14

 

[frettfreak]

Your sulfate to chloride ratio is backwards for an IPA from anywhere. I'm still trying different ones each time and so far 100 ppm chloride and 300 ppm sulfate gives a smooth bitterness and brighter hops flavor. Now i'm checking if a higher ratio will make the b rightness last longer in the keg.

I have made many many ipa's with high sulfate ratios and would agree it give the hops a nice pop. However, thats not what this style is about and everything i am reading from people who have made these beers successfully says higher chloride than sulfate. Do you have any evidence otherwise? Not disagreeing just looking for something concrete as i am just in search for knowledge about this style.

All looks pretty good to me. What's your mash temp going to be? I've found mashing high, at 156*, really helps with mouthfeel.

I've made this style my last three times brewing, and plan my next two brews to be NE style with different hops, and have upped the flaked grain to 30% and mashed higher and higher until finding the sweet spot at 156*.

I would also skip secondary. Throw first round of hops in around days 5-7. Leave for 5-7 days. Then rack to keg with second round of dry hops, bagged of course, in keg.

If you can, definitely use 1318. It's awesome with these types of beer. Only expect 71-75% attenuation though.

Here's a pic of what my most recent one looked like. Same beer just different angles.

View attachment 366089
View attachment 366090

That beer looks AWESOME. My mash temp is about 154 right now. I was concerned that using the 1318 strain (lower attenuating), mashing too high , and my grain bill would give me attenuation issues. I was trying to get my FG to around 1.014 ish but just wasnt sure (usually my "regular" ipa's finish below 1.010). what did yours finish out at?

I've brewed several of these. I would repeat what has been said. Skip the secondary. These beers shouldn't need to ferment longer than 14 days and should be drank within 2 weeks after that. You will see a rapid decline in quality. I start drinking and sharing on day 17. I would also go with crystal 15. The only other concern is that you're bittering with citra which normally doesn't produce good results. Everything else looks good. I would drop first dry hop on day 3 leave for 5 days then pull out. Dry hop again on day 11. keg it on day 14

Yeah, secondary will not be done. Do you use whole or pellet hops when you keg hop? Pellets always make such a mess thats why i usually avoid keg hopping but will give it a go with this one.

I am "bittering" with citra, but its at 15 min so its still an "aroma" addition imo. I have done this with citra in the past on a few different beers and think it came out wonderful. its no different than any other 15 min addition except that there has been no other additions to this point. I know what you are talking about though cause i have tried it at 60 too and didnt care for it as much.

You dont ever get a grassy / green / vegetable flavor leaving pellet hops in secondary longer than a couple days? Maybe i am just sensative to that flavor / aroma but ANY time i leave them in for more than 3 days MAX i get it. Unless i am dry hopping at cooler temps like during a cold crash. I dont know what i could be doing different than anyone else in that respect but its irritating that i cant figure it out lol :rockin:

 

[stonebrewer]

I do not secondary anymore. Stopped doing them completely about my second year of brewing and never looked back or had an issue with the beers, in fact I think they are much better now that I eliminated that (IMHO, worthless) step. I ferment IPAs in a sealed, purged keg and the only time it sees air is when I put my dry hop addition in during primary around day 3/4 and I think the yeast are taking care of any O2 that gets introduced. With a pressurized fermentation, I am done in 7-8 days and push into a serving keg with dry hop pellets floating free (like in primary). I use screens on my out posts to prevent clogging, but this is really a pain to get right so I would not recommend this unless you are willing to deal with the issues that might occur in the primary keg. It has not been a problem ever in my serving keg, but YMMV. I have only gotten grassy notes a few times and I think each time was when I put hops in a room temperature keg (after fermentation) and let it sit. Once it gets cold, I have not yet (fingers crossed) gotten that nasty taste in an IPA I have brewed, and I am highly sensitive to it. Yuck!

Some tips to consider - keep CO2 levels low as carbonic bite really makes an IPA like this unpleasant. Keep serving temps a little on the warm side - the hop oils and yeast settle out of suspension and vastly change the flavor of these type beers. If it starts to get bland tasting or taste of over ripe fruit, warm the keg up and shoot a small blast of CO2 in through the out post to get those oils back into suspension. Repeat as needed. Use a small bittering charge at 60, Columbus or Magnum work well and don't go over 0.5 oz. Experiment with mash and fermentation temperatures...both change this beer noticeably. I ferment in the low to mid 60's with 1318 and I generally mash at 152 +/- accuracy of my system. In general, I like to ferment other beers higher (~156) because I like the "chewy" mouthfeel much better than a thin beer, but that again is personal preference. If you can, limit O2 exposure at all steps of brewing except the beginning of fermentation when the yeast need it. If you can, ferment in a purged, closed system and transfer with pressure. Another advantage of this is natural carbonation which means you are drinking this beer younger/fresher. Finally, experiment and take good notes to help you tune the beer in. Don't be afraid to change things or go against convention. Have a blast! Cheers!!

 

[frettfreak]

I do not secondary anymore. Stopped doing them completely about my second year of brewing and never looked back or had an issue with the beers, in fact I think they are much better now that I eliminated that (IMHO, worthless) step. I ferment IPAs in a sealed, purged keg and the only time it sees air is when I put my dry hop addition in during primary around day 3/4 and I think the yeast are taking care of any O2 that gets introduced. With a pressurized fermentation, I am done in 7-8 days and push into a serving keg with dry hop pellets floating free (like in primary). I use screens on my out posts to prevent clogging, but this is really a pain to get right so I would not recommend this unless you are willing to deal with the issues that might occur in the primary keg. It has not been a problem ever in my serving keg, but YMMV. I have only gotten grassy notes a few times and I think each time was when I put hops in a room temperature keg (after fermentation) and let it sit. Once it gets cold, I have not yet (fingers crossed) gotten that nasty taste in an IPA I have brewed, and I am highly sensitive to it. Yuck!

Some tips to consider - keep CO2 levels low as carbonic bite really makes an IPA like this unpleasant. Keep serving temps a little on the warm side - the hop oils and yeast settle out of suspension and vastly change the flavor of these type beers. If it starts to get bland tasting or taste of over ripe fruit, warm the keg up and shoot a small blast of CO2 in through the out post to get those oils back into suspension. Repeat as needed. Use a small bittering charge at 60, Columbus or Magnum work well and don't go over 0.5 oz. Experiment with mash and fermentation temperatures...both change this beer noticeably. I ferment in the low to mid 60's with 1318 and I generally mash at 152 +/- accuracy of my system. In general, I like to ferment other beers higher (~156) because I like the "chewy" mouthfeel much better than a thin beer, but that again is personal preference. If you can, limit O2 exposure at all steps of brewing except the beginning of fermentation when the yeast need it. If you can, ferment in a purged, closed system and transfer with pressure. Another advantage of this is natural carbonation which means you are drinking this beer younger/fresher. Finally, experiment and take good notes to help you tune the beer in. Don't be afraid to change things or go against convention. Have a blast! Cheers!!

Sounds like some good advice. I have never tried but will give it a shot. Have plenty of kegs laying around so thats not a problem. How do you have an air lock or blow off tube attached to the keg during primary?

Looks like another vote for a standard bittering charge too. If i do a 0.5oz of magnum, at FW or 60, i should get about 19 IBU out of it. Thats what i am getting out of the citra at 15 mostly. I can just move the citra and centenial to flame out then as staylow suggestd as well then.

I have seen a few of your recipes as well @stonebrewer and you have had success with high chloride and lower sulfate ratios right? Just making sure i am not thinking about this wrong.

 

[ViciousFishes]

Aside from whatever negligible effect racking to secondary might have, I'd expect this to have resulted in a delicious beer. Grain and hop bills look great. Looks like you nailed the water profile. I say let it ride through whatever your packaging preference is and then reevaluate. Send some to me if you want a second opinion

 

[h22lude]

Your sulfate to chloride ratio is backwards for an IPA from anywhere. I'm still trying different ones each time and so far 100 ppm chloride and 300 ppm sulfate gives a smooth bitterness and brighter hops flavor. Now i'm checking if a higher ratio will make the b rightness last longer in the keg.

I have made many many ipa's with high sulfate ratios and would agree it give the hops a nice pop. However, thats not what this style is about and everything i am reading from people who have made these beers successfully says higher chloride than sulfate. Do you have any evidence otherwise? Not disagreeing just looking for something concrete as i am just in search for knowledge about this style.

Higher sulfate and lower chloride works really well for a traditional IPA with more bitter kick to it. The smooth mouth feel and less (to no) bitterness comes from higher chloride and lower sulfate. This will bring out the fruity flavors of the hops.

 

[droder1]

Your sulfate to chloride ratio is backwards for an IPA from anywhere. I'm still trying different ones each time and so far 100 ppm chloride and 300 ppm sulfate gives a smooth bitterness and brighter hops flavor. Now i'm checking if a higher ratio will make the b rightness last longer in the keg.

No.

Higher chloride is commonly pointed to for mouthfeel in NEIPAs

Science disagrees that high sulfates correlate with higher hop flavor as well. http://community.mbaa.com/HigherLog...cbc-9836-48d8-ab6b-d6b8b53e7792&forceDialog=1

 

[lilbova3]

That beer looks AWESOME. My mash temp is about 154 right now. I was concerned that using the 1318 strain (lower attenuating), mashing too high , and my grain bill would give me attenuation issues. I was trying to get my FG to around 1.014 ish but just wasnt sure (usually my "regular" ipa's finish below 1.010). what did yours finish out at?

Thanks, it's pretty tasty. I've been making pale ales for this style and they are finishing around 1.015-1.016, OG beginning around 1.054. So a very low attenuation (71%) but that doesn't bother me. I don't check my FG over multiple days. My beers are usually in the primary for 10-12 days so I just assume they are done. Even with a beer finishing around 1.015, it's not malty or sweet at all. I think a slightly higher FG adds to the fuller mouthfeel.

 

[hottpeper13]

droder1, that article was awesome, and stated that the SO4 ppm needed to be investigated further,which is what i'm doing. It just takes awhile. I brew a NEIPA (sometimes a IIPA) with maple sap instead of water and I try to find experimental hops for it also, my SO4:Cl2 is ~3:1 with 184 ppm SO4 and 63 ppm Cl2. Those salts were also used to get a 5.3 pH. Since this is a yearly brew it will take awhile to hash out.In between i'm working on an all day NEIPA with 3.2% abv, and wow does that ratio make an almost too bitter beer. So try different ways until you get what you want,that's what I do. Also i'm using Conan from The Yeast Bay on both in the past. Next brew is this week and am repitching Mangrove M10 workhourse to compare.

 

[frettfreak]

That beer looks AWESOME. My mash temp is about 154 right now. I was concerned that using the 1318 strain (lower attenuating), mashing too high , and my grain bill would give me attenuation issues. I was trying to get my FG to around 1.014 ish but just wasnt sure (usually my "regular" ipa's finish below 1.010). what did yours finish out at?

Thanks, it's pretty tasty. I've been making pale ales for this style and they are finishing around 1.015-1.016, OG beginning around 1.054. So a very low attenuation (71%) but that doesn't bother me. I don't check my FG over multiple days. My beers are usually in the primary for 10-12 days so I just assume they are done. Even with a beer finishing around 1.015, it's not malty or sweet at all. I think a slightly higher FG adds to the fuller mouthfeel.

Sounds good then! Thanks for the input. Will be brewing this next week!

droder1, that article was awesome, and stated that the SO4 ppm needed to be investigated further,which is what i'm doing. It just takes awhile. I brew a NEIPA (sometimes a IIPA) with maple sap instead of water and I try to find experimental hops for it also, my SO4:Cl2 is ~3:1 with 184 ppm SO4 and 63 ppm Cl2. Those salts were also used to get a 5.3 pH. Since this is a yearly brew it will take awhile to hash out.In between i'm working on an all day NEIPA with 3.2% abv, and wow does that ratio make an almost too bitter beer. So try different ways until you get what you want,that's what I do. Also i'm using Conan from The Yeast Bay on both in the past. Next brew is this week and am repitching Mangrove M10 workhourse to compare.

I have always been curious about usint maple sap instead of water for a brew (not this one but probably a stout or porter)! Thats awesome!! Do you live where you can get that stuff? I am in CA and just cant get my hands on any for a reasonable price after shipping. lol Good luck. Sounds great! Not familiar with mangrove yeast.

 

[stonebrewer]

I have seen a few of your recipes as well @stonebrewer and you have had success with high chloride and lower sulfate ratios right? Just making sure i am not thinking about this wrong.

Absolutely. Nice round, soft mouth feel just like the NEIPA "style". I get a fair amount of beers from that area as I travel near some of those breweries for work from time to time. Pretty regularly am drinking Trillium, Tree House, etc. and I can tell you the recipes I have been working on or copying from others on these forums are dead on to those breweries styles. Best of luck brewing yours!!

Oh, and don't forget about PH! Very important as well...

 

[bierhaus15]

This goes against pretty much what every home brewer has heard, but analytically there isn't much to support the idea that Cl to S04 ratios have a positive correlation with the "soft" mouthfeel in these NE style IPA's. Higher Cl ion concentrations can actually increase the perception of astringency and dryness when used above ~100ppm, especially if polyphenol load is high. Basically, higher ion concentrations with heavy dry hopping can lend to a more astringent and drier mouthfeel, no matter if you are using lots of S04 or Cl or both. Much of the "softness" of these beers comes from large dry hopping while in contact with active yeast. The reactions are complicated, but some of the side effects is an increase in final beer pH, reduced organic acids, and high polyphenol/yeast load. These can give the perception of softer, less defined mouthfeel. High protein/beta-glucan grains (wheat, rye, oats) only help things.

 

[stonebrewer]

I personally believe that the chloride is enhancing the wheat and other adjuncts in this style and that is what is giving one the perception of a soft mouth feel. Other factors like the large hop oil load and perhaps the yeast itself contribute. There are a lot of folks who have brewed these beers with higher chloride levels and are of the belief it is enhancing the beers in this area. All I can say is brew it any way you like, but I am going to keep brewing with ~150 ppm chloride in this style of beer because I can taste the difference. YMMV!

 

[frettfreak]

Just an update. I had to put off brewing this beer for another week because i REALLY wanted to use the 1318 yeast but couldn't get to the brew store due to a HUGE fire and they have the roads closed. SO, i will be brewing this probably NEXT week now. I will update the recipe with my final numbers before i brew it.

 

[stonebrewer]

This goes against pretty much what every home brewer has heard, but analytically there isn't much to support the idea that Cl to S04 ratios have a positive correlation with the "soft" mouthfeel in these NE style IPA's. Higher Cl ion concentrations can actually increase the perception of astringency and dryness when used above ~100ppm, especially if polyphenol load is high. Basically, higher ion concentrations with heavy dry hopping can lend to a more astringent and drier mouthfeel, no matter if you are using lots of S04 or Cl or both. Much of the "softness" of these beers comes from large dry hopping while in contact with active yeast. The reactions are complicated, but some of the side effects is an increase in final beer pH, reduced organic acids, and high polyphenol/yeast load. These can give the perception of softer, less defined mouthfeel. High protein/beta-glucan grains (wheat, rye, oats) only help things.

There is a better article on this, but I did not bookmark it so the one below will have to do. John Moorhead is the Director of the National Homebrew Competition and special projects coordinator for the American Homebrewers Association and he states that higher chloride to sulfate ratios do indeed contribute to the softer mouthfeel of this style. #shrug


https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/news/new-england-ipa-haze-craze/

 

[frettfreak]

Prepping to brew this soon but have a couple more in the pipe before i do. HOWEVER, i did an experiment with a 10 gallon batch of wheat beer that i treated to make it liek the profile mentioned in the first post. I gotta say that this made a HUGE difference to what i am used to making. i split the batch and did a hoppy wheat for half but added almost all the hops after the whirlpool reached 160 and this could be one of the best beers i have ever made. Creamy, juicy, hoppy, not bitter.... That water profile made all the difference. Hoping to brew this IPA now within the next few weeks... just have to get some space in the keezer!

 

[frettfreak]

FINALLY!! Brewed this yesterday BUT, changed a few things. I did a 10 gallon split batch and ended up doing 2 different hop schedules. I will update the recipe on the first page but this thing came out amazing. Half the batch was was all fruity hops (Citra, el dorado, mosaic, and galaxy) and the second half is more toward the piney side (simcoe, cascade, CTZ, and centennial). 8 oz of hops in a 30 min low temp whirlpool, and will get 2 dry hops of the same hops. will update with tasting notes.

 

[bkboiler]

Looking for some feedback. Have been reading all i can about he NE style IPA and hopfully this will get me close.

Hopfully. I see what you did there.

 

[frettfreak]

Some reason, I cant go back and edit the front post so i will just edit the recipe here with what i did.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 14.01 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 11.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 5.4 SRM
Estimated IBU:
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Water Prep:
My water profile will be 100% RO water with the finished profile looking something like this:

phosphoric acid to hit mash PH of 5.3
Calcium 105
Magnesium 0
Sodium 0
Sulfate 60
Chloride 144

MASH
17 lbs 10.0 oz Brewer's Malt, 2-Row, Premium (Great Western) 61 %
5 lbs 14.0 oz White Wheat Malt (Great Western) 20.3 %
3 lbs 10.0 oz Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM) 1 13.4 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Golden Naked (Simpsons) (10.0 SRM) 5.2 %

FRUITY HALF
HOPS
0.50 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
2.00 oz El Dorado [15.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
2.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
2.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min

DRY HOPS
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.00 oz El Dorado [15.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days

PINEY? HALF

HOPS
0.50 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min 19.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 3 Hop
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop

DRY HOPS
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop
1.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 3 Hop
1.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop
1.50 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Hop


Yeast
2.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) -

2.75L starter split

Misc Notes

The Whirlpool hops will not be added until the wort reaches 180 (should be about 15 min) and will sit for 30 min

The dry hops will be split into 2 additions with the first being towards the tail end of primary (but still actively fermenting). Other will be in the flushed keg or still in primary AFTER fermentation has completed. I always get a grassy / green taste if i leave my hops in more than 3 days so thats why Its not longer (that and i have seen enough data to be convinced that longer dry hop doesn't mean more hop aroma).

 

[Staylow]

This is a super late response, not sure how I missed this.

I dont think rushing these beers out the door too fast is how any of these breweries built their rep, and not really wanting to rush it if its not going to get me a better beer. I get what your saying, and i could be completely wrong, i just doubt it.

The idea of packaging it after a week or so is that fermentation is done and hoppy beers are best drank as young as possible. You want "juicy" character - the fresher/younger it is, the more to this end you achieve. Part of that "juiciness" is coming from the biotransformation of hop oils by dry hopping at the tail end fermentation - the longer you wait after this point, the more that character is reduced.

The 15 min charge gets me to my target ibu's so i didn't think it was necessary for a typical "bittering" charge. I have used this technique in some hoppy pales and IPA's and gotten a nice smooth bitter. that was my thoughts at least. Why would using hops at 60 (or FW) be better?

Not necessarily better. It just seems like a waste of good aroma hops to use them that early. The longer they are in the boil, the less character you get from them. That's why I used a small charge of something like Horizon or Nugget to get the IBU's right, and use all those expensive aroma hops later in the process.

By malted oats do you mean something like Golden Naked oats? I have those on hand but not sure thats what you mean. I have used them in LOTS and love them, but they definitely are not like flaked oats. Gonna have to check that out for sure.

No, malted oats are malted oats. Like malted two row, except they're oats. GNO are like a crystal malt.

 

[Horseflesh]

Those of you who dry hop with pellets in the fermenter... do you contain the pellets in a bag or just drop them in? I'd worry they'd sink into whatever yeast sits on the bottom unless bagged somehow.

 

[elburrogrande]

Those of you who dry hop with pellets in the fermenter... do you contain the pellets in a bag or just drop them in? I'd worry they'd sink into whatever yeast sits on the bottom unless bagged somehow.

I use one of these. they come in many shapes and sizes

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290mm-x-70m...613264?hash=item4b0f528450:g:~tEAAOSw241YbNVi

 

[Horseflesh]

Thanks a million for that link! That is just what I needed, and I hate to say it, but it's about 5x as much at my LHBS so I was trying to get by without it...

 

[globe]

I never use a bag or filter with pellet hops, throw them in, cold crash even for just a day drops most of them out. Just be careful racking or put a bag on your autosiphon.

 

[frettfreak]

Hopfully. I see what you did there.

Lol... Yeah.. Um.. That was totally on purpose too! 😁

 

[frettfreak]

I used a hop basket in the kettle that was close to the dry hop basket you posted but I think the mesh is too fine. Totally clogged. Ended up using my trusty paint strainer bag. Boom. Lol. Been wanted to try one of those for dry hopping though.

 

[frettfreak]

These things were chugging away and I am loving the color so far. However, I don't think I am getting quite the orange hue I was looking for, but very happy with them so far. My garage smelled amazing when they were chugging hard. They have slowed down a little and I am gonna put in my second dry hop in a day or so

 

[frettfreak]

I dont know how but I just check gravity for the first time on these and I am sitting at about 1.014 on one and 1.016 on the other and they are still going. Based on my OG of 1.071 I am at about 79% and 77% attenuation with this yeast. they are still bubbling the blow off jar about once every 5 to 10 seconds too.

Wyeast page says about 75% max??? I always lose a good amount of temp during my mash (went from 155.8 to start down to 150.6 at the end of mash) so that just made the wort a littel more fermentable but thats still over the 75% that wyeast claims.

Anyone know if this is usual for London Ale III 1318 ???

 

[JohnConnor]

I dont know how but I just check gravity for the first time on these and I am sitting at about 1.014 on one and 1.016 on the other and they are still going. Based on my OG of 1.071 I am at about 79% and 77% attenuation with this yeast. they are still bubbling the blow off jar about once every 5 to 10 seconds too.

Wyeast page says about 75% max??? I always lose a good amount of temp during my mash (went from 155.8 to start down to 150.6 at the end of mash) so that just made the wort a littel more fermentable but thats still over the 75% that wyeast claims.

Anyone know if this is usual for London Ale III 1318 ???

I am always at 80% attenuation with 1318. I think every time I use that yeast, I hit 1.011 or 1.012. No matter the OG (with in reason). Just from experience, I'd be surprised if you go much lower than where you're at right now.

 

[frettfreak]

I am always at 80% attenuation with 1318. I think every time I use that yeast, I hit 1.011 or 1.012. No matter the OG (with in reason). Just from experience, I'd be surprised if you go much lower than where you're at right now.

Yup. Both finish at 1.014. Kinda crazy. 79.2% .

First one is on tap and the second is getting kegged tomorrow. Here is a pic of the first.

Taste is pretty awesome. Like grapefruit juice. More bitter on the first than expected but I think next time I will just wait til wort is 160 to put in whirlpool hops. Still a great beer though.

 

[marjen]

I just chuck them in loose.

 

[KrunkMasterKyle]

Brewed this recipe about 3 weeks ago. Brew in bag 1 gallon batch, ended up with OG 1.062 FG 1.010 -6.83% ABV. Came out great (first taste from bottle). Soft mouthfeel, looking to get a bit more of a juicy flavor the next time I brew. Cheers!