Help with AG Dead Ringer clone - no hop aroma

[mbeall]

Ok, I brewed my first A.G. batch about a month ago (been brewing extract for 2 years). It was the Dead Ringer IPA (Bells Two Hearted) clone from Northern Brewer (5 gallon). Everything went well. I hit all the numbers. 1063 OG, 1011 FG after 10 days (fermented at 65* Wyeast 1056). I followed the hop schedule (All Centennial, .75oz 60 min, 1oz 20 min, 2oz 5 min) and dry hopped 1.25 oz Centennial in primary after reaching FG for about 5 days. Then I racked to keg, cold crashed and added 2oz more centennial (not in recipe) and its been sitting on 12psi for the last 10 days @ 36*.

The problem is I'm not getting any floral or citrus flavor or aroma. It's not tasting like an IPA. I know the beer is young but I thought that hop flavor and aroma would be stronger when it was young and diminish over time (I even added 2oz more Centinennial to the keg). Am I just sampling too soon? Should I let it sit longer?

Thanks!

 

[Manzier]

Not sure why no aroma. Isn't centennial pine aroma not citrus? Haven't used it yet myself.

Perhaps you added the dry hops to soon or at too cold a temperature. 3.25oz seems like a lot and should do somthing. I dunno. I'm no help at all. Maybe just old hops.


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[GrogNerd]

i've been having the same problem with my IPAs; plenty of bitter, little to no flavor/aroma

suggested fixes include "add more freakin' hops!" - yeah, like 5oz at 75 IBU isn't enough hops. it's what the recipe calls for, I shouldn't have to add a metric crap-ton to get some flavor

tried deeking with water chemistry and it really just upped the bitterness factor without helping the flavor/aroma

next up is pushing the additions later in the boil. 60-minute addition is now a 40-minute, 40- is now 20. then slightly more than the recipe calls for at flameout. tried a hopstand, didn't help, don't see the difference between a flameout addition and the hopstand

also, my brews come out WAY darker than the recipe says, so I'm thinking the problem might be mash pH related. last batch I added 2oz (1.4%) of acidulated malt to the grain bill to see if that might help out the hops problem too. it's still in primary, haven't dry-hopped yet, so don't know if it helped with the hops, but I can already tell it helped with the color.

 

[bigdongsr94]

I have had a hop flavor aroma issue for a while. I even did a pliny clone at 12oz of hops and it wasn't what it should have been. I used a hop stand method to increase aroma and still not there. I tried my last batch last night and it was amazing. Here are the things i did. There are many changes so I do not know what caused it. I do build my water and check the pH in 15min increments so I know my pH is good.
Changes:
First time using wlp001 and a starter
Hop stand but with the lid on
I circulated during hop stand with a small amazon pump.
I controlled ferment/sec/conditioning at 70F.
I dropped all hops in direct, no bag.

Without knowing my system before i will tell you my most significant changs I believe are a starter and hop stand with lid. I also did a short primary at 8 days and 60 hr dry hop right into cold crash for a week. This is a very different schedule for me. Normally 2 week primary and then a full wk dry hop and short crash.


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[mbeall]

Not sure why no aroma. Isn't centennial pine aroma not citrus? Haven't used it yet myself.

Perhaps you added the dry hops to soon or at too cold a temperature. 3.25oz seems like a lot and should do something. I dunno. I'm no help at all. Maybe just old hops.

Well HopUnion says Centennial is medium intensity floral and citrus (lemon) tones. http://www.hopunion.com/aroma-wheel/?aroma=Citrus

I was really just going from the taste of a Bells Two Hearted. It has a nice floral/citrus flavor. Mine is shaping up and tastes like a IPA but still no citrus flavor/aroma. That is even with 2 oz more dry hops that the recipe.

I added the dry hops after primary fermentation was complete (in primary) 1.25oz (Centennial) then after 5 days @ 65*, kegged, cold crashed @35* and added 2 oz in a muslin bag. So maybe the cold has affected the hop utilization but I have heard both ways on this. Some people have good results in the cold. Will it just take longer?

 

[mbeall]

i've been having the same problem with my IPAs; plenty of bitter, little to no flavor/aroma

suggested fixes include "add more freakin' hops!" - yeah, like 5oz at 75 IBU isn't enough hops. it's what the recipe calls for, I shouldn't have to add a metric crap-ton to get some flavor

Yeah, I agree. It's what the recipe called for but we are not getting the results that others are, given the same recipe. Is it worth adding more dry hops in the keg at this point? If the utilization is low in the cold, maybe I need a few more oz to help this batch or should I leave it and try some different techniques with future brews as both you and bigdongsr94 mentioned: Hop stands with lid on. Recirc the hop stand (which I can do with my herms coil).

bigdongsr94, I already have temp controlled fermentation @65*, I dropped the hops directly in the boil and I pitched a big starter (2.5L).

So in the future, I think a hopstand is the way to go, it just wasn't in this recipe. I will be doing it in the future though!

Thanks for the comments!

 

[hophop]

1.25 oz dryhop is not a lot for an IPA. also, dry hopping at 36 degrees will definitely decrease absorption. I do 2-3 oz for 7 days for APA and IPA, and I get tons of hop aroma. I think your problem might be dry hopping at too low of a temp for the second addition. I would have added it all at one time for 7 days at your fermentation temp.


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[Calichusetts]

I'd take a look at your water and your mash pH. Won't explain everything but it could help.

Also, that is not a lot of hops IMO. I'm using more to dry hop and I do 1 gallon. Never had two-hearted. I heard its delicious but if its suppose to be hoppy, you will need a lot more.

 

[mbeall]

1.25 oz dryhop is not a lot for an IPA. also, dry hopping at 36 degrees will definitely decrease absorption. I do 2-3 oz for 7 days for APA and IPA, and I get tons of hop aroma. I think your problem might be dry hopping at too low of a temp for the second addition. I would have added it all at one time for 7 days at your fermentation temp.

Yeah, the second addition (2oz) was an attempt to get more aroma. Next time, I'll roll my own recipe and add more.

I'd take a look at your water and your mash pH. Won't explain everything but it could help.

The water profile for Chesterfield, Va. is very good. I did add 2.3g of Calcium Cholride to bring the Calicum to 44ppm based on Brun Water. My mash ph was dead on.

 

[mbeall]

For kicks, I decided to try one more dry hop addition. I added 2oz of Citra. Within one hour, I had amazing hop aroma and flavor. Wow.

When I took out the other 2 oz of Centennial, it had no hop smell. I'm not sure if I got some old hops but I am sure they smelled great when they went in.

I think the first addition of 1.25oz was too small and being in the primary maybe that had something to do with it. Next time I'll secondary and dry hop to see if it makes a big difference.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[mccullpl]

I brewed the same recipe, but I did two 3-day dry hops with .8 oz Centennial each. 2 week primary, then 6 days of dry hopping, and it's been in the keg for about 10 days, and it has a crazy amount of aroma and hop flavor. I'm actually hoping it settles down, as it doesn't taste much like two hearted at this point, and I'm planning on brewing 10 gal for my niece's wedding, so I'm trying to get pretty close the Bell's.

I guess this doesn't really help you, but I'd say there's definitely something wrong if you're not getting good aroma from even a couple ounces dry hop.

Pat

 

[dtwhite]

Has anyone suggested oxidation? Oxidation can darken the beer and will dramatically reduce hop aroma. I have trouble with it.

 

[mbeall]

I brewed the same recipe, but I did two 3-day dry hops with .8 oz Centennial each. 2 week primary, then 6 days of dry hopping, and it's been in the keg for about 10 days, and it has a crazy amount of aroma and hop flavor.

Pat, that is good to know. That is what I expected but not what I got.

Did you dry hop in the primary? Did you sample before the dry hop and was there any aroma? I'm leaning towards some old hops but the hops in the kit were from Northern Brewer (boil and first hop addition) and the second addition (2oz) were from my LBS. Neither had any aroma.

 

[mbeall]

Has anyone suggested oxidation? Oxidation can darken the beer and will dramatically reduce hop aroma. I have trouble with it.

Not yet. I chilled the batch in less than 15 minutes to Fermenter and left it only in the primary (never had the lid off and sampled through the spigot on the side). then racked to keg and purged with co2. At that point after 1st 1.25oz dry hop, I had no hop aroma and it mildly tasted like an IPA.

After that point, I did have a problem with my keg. It was a new keg and the pressure relief valve leaked, so I didn't keep the co2 on all the time. I would check it often and pressurize it as the needle would drop (not realizing that the beer would consume co2 as it carbed). That went on for a week until I could get a new lid. Then I fully pressurized it and dry hopped again.

So what do you think? Could it be oxidized?

 

[mccullpl]

mbeall,

I don't recall if I tasted it before the dry hopping. I did dry hop in the primary. My hops were 2013 crop purchased from a hop farm on ebay. I'd be really surprised if NB was sending out old hops.

I had one batch of pale ale that had no hop aroma or flavor (NB Extra pale ale kit). It tasted really good in the primary, but when I tasted it from the keg (probably kegged for about 2 days, force carbed), it didn't really taste like anything. Coincidentally, that was with a new keg. When I opened the keg to make sure it was clean, it looked like it had some soda residue in it. At the time, all I had to clean it with was BLC (beer line cleaner), so I used that. After that batch, I cleaned the hell out of the keg with PBW, and never had the problem again. Maybe the new keg has something to do with it?

Pat

 

[bigdongsr94]

I had responded to this saying my hop troubles were over...not so fast. That was tasting the beer during bottling. After bottling, 10 oz if hops total taste like well nothing really. Or not much atleast. So my problems continue. I am a bit interested in the oxidation idea. I backfill my bottling bucket with co2 before I transfer then bottle from there. I also back filled a couple if the bottles too but they are no different. I have had one or two they were good but they were not yet carbed. Not trying to steal your thread, just perplexed as well. I will keg my next and see if bottle conditioning is the problem.


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[Calichusetts]

I had responded to this saying my hop troubles were over...not so fast. That was tasting the beer during bottling. After bottling, 10 oz if hops total taste like well nothing really. Or not much atleast. So my problems continue. I am a bit interested in the oxidation idea. I backfill my bottling bucket with co2 before I transfer then bottle from there. I also back filled a couple if the bottles too but they are no different. I have had one or two they were good but they were not yet carbed. Not trying to steal your thread, just perplexed as well. I will keg my next and see if bottle conditioning is the problem.


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I'm guessing your doing 5 gallon batches. If so, 10 oz is really not that much...I'm doing 4 oz for my hop bombs and that is a 1 gallon batch. Mine are out of control. I think we need your hop schedule but if you are reading along in this thread. you need to consider adding a majority of your hops post-boil. For me, at most, only 25% of my hops hit the boil.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, the second addition (2oz) was an attempt to get more aroma. Next time, I'll roll my own recipe and add more.



The water profile for Chesterfield, Va. is very good. I did add 2.3g of Calcium Cholride to bring the Calicum to 44ppm based on Brun Water. My mash ph was dead on.

What about the sulfate level? Chloride makes a beer seem "fuller" and almost sweeter, but you really need a high level of sulfate to make the hops and bitterness "pop".

It does take longer to extract dryhops goodness out of a cold beer, so while I dryhop for 5 days at 58 degrees, I'll dryhop a lot longer in the kegerator to get the maximum amount out of them.

 

[signpost]

Lupulin threshold shift?

 

[tifosichris]

FYI, i brewed this beer a few months ago as my "calibration" brew on a new AG kit i got for Christmas and had the exact same experience. NO aroma at all. The beer itself is nice and bitter but there was nothing when it came to aroma. If i brew it again, i'd probably double or even triple the DH amounts.

 

[npbrew]

Thought I would chime in, since I had a similar issue with the AG Dead Ringer kit - tastes great and plenty bitter, but with no hop aroma, and followed the hop schedule and dry hopping per the instructions. Smelled awesome in the fermentor, and had a reasonably hoppy smell when I transferred to secondary, but nothing when bottling and sampling afterward. Curiously, I had the same issue with a previous NB Black IPA kit (extract) as well, which makes for a fairly boring IPA.

Granted, I am new to AG, brewing in general (and the forums) so something in my process could be off, such as oxidation etc., but I know that our water supply drastically increased the level of chlorine/chloramine a while back. Could this be killing off the aroma? I just started using campden tablets for pre-treatment, so I suppose I'll find out if that is an issue with the NB Moose Drool kit that is fermenting away...

 

[mbeall]

What about the sulfate level? Chloride makes a beer seem "fuller" and almost sweeter, but you really need a high level of sulfate to make the hops and bitterness "pop".

It does take longer to extract dryhops goodness out of a cold beer, so while I dryhop for 5 days at 58 degrees, I'll dryhop a lot longer in the kegerator to get the maximum amount out of them.

Yooper, I'm glad you responded! I think you are onto something. My Sulfate level is 24ppm. I see in BrunWater that it suggests from 150ppm to 350ppm for hoppy/bitter beers. The cell was still green for me and I didn't catch this.

I just brewed a Wooky Jack clone this past weekend and its bubbling away. Is it too late to adjust the beer in some way to increase the sulfates before dry hopping?

I'm going to secondary this one and dry hop @65 degrees and see if that helps.

Thanks!

 

[mbeall]

Lupulin threshold shift?

Oh man .. I just googled that. I didn't know the term but I've always wondered why some beers I used to like don't do it for me. I mainly drink IPA's and lately they are getting stronger and hoppier. One of my current favorites is Lagunitus Sucks. Awesome beer. I did just rediscover NB Ranger and It has a nice aroma/flavor. So maybe all is not lost for my taste buds.