Help w/ BIAB Basket Mesh Sizing (400v600v800)

[hafmpty]

I'm in the process of working with Chad at ArborFab on getting a basket created for my 7.5gal Blichmann G2 Boilermaker. I'm going to have a design very similar to this:

Here's my issue though...I keep going back and forth between getting the 400, 600, or 800 micron. Chad said the 600 & 800 micron is better for grain while the 300 & 400 is better for hops. The BrewBoss (a recirculating system) is made with the 800 micron and Chad fabricates that those for him.



I've heard lots of good things about the BrewBoss, but I'm mostly concerned about the basket.



Most guys seem to be going with 400 micron for their BIAB baskets. But most guys don't seem to be recirculating...which is what I'm going to be doing via the Tower of Power.



So here are my questions:



1) What micron size do you have?

2) What kind of clarity do you get out of your mash? (I know...don't worry about this...I'm not, but still want to know).

3) Do you recirculate your mash...and if you do...

4) What kind of flow rate do you get out of it?

5) Do you ever stick your mash?



Thanks!

 

[TexasWine]

So here are my questions:

1) What mesh size do you have?
2) What kind of clarity do you get out of your mash? (I know...don't worry about this...I'm not, but still want to know).
3) Do you recirculate your mash...and if you do...
4) What kind of flow rate do you get out of it?
5) Do you ever stick your mash?

Thanks!

I circulate, but I use a wilserbrewer bag, not a basket.

1. My understanding is that the bag is much finer than even a 400 micron basket. How fine, I don't know.
2. Everything is very clear, until I pull the bag. I've found that as soon as you disrupt that grain bed all bets are off in clarify.
3. Yup
4. I have one of those little 24v dc pumps. Not sure on the flow rate, but I run it at about half throttle (1/4 turn ball valve) during the mash.
5. The first time I used the pump I did. Started the pump at full throttle, compacted the bed and overflowed the kettle. After monkeying with it for a while I realized what I was doing wrong, stirred up the grains and eased into the throttle. Works great now.

 

[Borgstrom]

My basket uses 400 micron; worked very well for me but I have never used other mesh sizes so can't really say if it is the best. I recirculate using a chugger pump and have no flow issues; see photo.

 

[hafmpty]

My basket uses 400 micron; worked very well for me but I have never used other mesh sizes so can't really say if it is the best. I recirculate using a chugger pump and have no flow issues; see photo.

Based on your results (especially with bigger beers), would you consider going with a looser micron (i.e. 600 or 800) or if you had it to do over again?



BTW, here's the pictures of the 400 micron...

600 micron...

800 micron...

 

[hafmpty]

...Everything is very clear, until I pull the bag. I've found that as soon as you disrupt that grain bed all bets are off in clarify.

I hadn't honestly thought about that. You have a lot of turbulence as soon as you move that basket (or bag in your case). Everything is moving and flowing not only out the bottom, but out every side as well. I guess the only solution (if you want clear wort in the kettle) would be to drain out of the kettle into a bucket or something and THEN lift the basket (or bag) out as a way to more easily end the mash.

HMMM...things to think about. I'm a traditional 3V brewer transitioning to BIAB so I'm still learning the kinds of things I can expect with BIAB vs. the things I shouldn't expect any longer (i.e. crystal clear wort into the kettle).

 

[Bilsch]

Just thought I'd chime in about being careful not to mix the terms "mesh" with "micron" as they are both quite different ways of sizing wire cloth. Mesh is finer the larger the number and micron is more coarse as you count up. Just as a reference I'd say the typical biab bag is about 30 to 50 mesh or about 600 to 300 microns.

 

[hafmpty]

Just thought I'd chime in about being careful not to mix the terms "mesh" with "micron" as they are both quite different ways of sizing wire cloth. Mesh is finer the larger the number and micron is more coarse as you count up. Just as a reference I'd say the typical biab bag is about 30 to 50 mesh or about 600 to 300 microns.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the heads up. I went back and edited my posts for accuracy.

Any others have an opinion or experience with a stainless basket and recirculation?

 

[Borgstrom]

Based on your results (especially with bigger beers), would you consider going with a looser micron (i.e. 600 or 800) or if you had it to do over again?

Only one brew in the new basket so far; at this point I don't think I'd change the filter mesh. 400 micron seems to work just fine. Clarity of finished product with this first batch is good; on par with what I've achieved with fabric bag BIAB method.

 

[hafmpty]

Only one brew in the new basket so far; at this point I don't think I'd change the filter mesh. 400 micron seems to work just fine. Clarity of finished product with this first batch is good; on par with what I've achieved with fabric bag BIAB method.

Awesome. Glad to hear you're enjoying the new basket. Comparable to the bag is what I'm looking for.

If anyone else has input or experience to lend definitely let me know.

 

[Bassman2003]

Having just switched from 12 years as a batch sparger, wort clarity and sediment have been very much on my mind. I have an electric setup and this poses some issues with wheat malt.

I think there is a big difference between electric and gas when it comes to BIAB. Gas allows one to let the bag rest on the bottom of the pot. Hence the sediment stays in the bag as it has nowhere to go. Electric forces one to suspend the bag or basket giving the sediment someplace to go. Basically falling all over the place. So I think sediment matters more to electric brewers.

Unless you have a conical or bottom draining kettle that sediment will stay there until cleanup. I have been adding strike water to my grain bucket and letting the grain sit for 15 min to let it puff up. This helps keep it inside where you want it. Dumping dry grain in is when it goes through the most.

As for how small of a basket weave you want, I think 800 would be way to open for an electric setup. Maybe o.k. for gas. The true "grain bed" that is wanted to filter stuff in traditional 2/3 vessel systems does not form until the end of the mash after you finish stirring. Up until then you are going to be dropping a lot if the basket is suspended.

In a recent post I found a link that stated the poly bags are around 200 microns as viewed under a microscope.

While you are building, have you considered only having the filter at the bottom with solid side walls? You really want the wort to flow through the grain, not around it. Mesh on the side just gives an easy escape.

I am looking at a motor for constant stirring along with updating my solid wall collander with a 200 or 300 micron mesh at the bottom. I figure through constant stirring I will have great flow (which allows one to run the recirc at a faster clip). Then stop the stir and choke back the recirc to create a grain bed for liftoff.

Why have I thought about this so much? I just brewed a hefeweizen and once again my heating element was caked with sediment. I need to find a way to brew with wheat with this setup. No problems with all barley beers. I am using a Wilser bag inside my colander.

Hope this was not too scattered. Trying to dump it all out for discussion.

 

[bondra76]

Late to the party, but I would have gone with something under 400 if possible. I think 400 is the absolute minimum you should buy.

Watch this video - water passes through with no resistance at 74 microns.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0gPgWFC-wU[/ame]

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the link. They offer 74, 100, 149, 177, 200, 300, 400...

I would be really interested to see a complete mash done in a 74 micron basket. Flow vs gumming up.

 

[bcltoys]

74 is going to up the price some but don't know how much.

 

[Gavin C]

Unrelated to mesh/micro size/design, on a macro scale looks like a lot of extra-basket space in the kettle. Can that effect the efficacy of the mash?

I too am a non-basket using BIAB'er so my comment is cautionary but hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in. I may be way off base.

I too see the clarity issue. Crystal till pulling the bag. No impact on beer clarity though.

 

[Bassman2003]

I think gas BIAB has an edge over basket BIAB unless the basket folks can recirc all of the sediment back into the basket. Then make a fly-sparge type of runoff. The BIAC conical design is tops in my book. But very expensive.

 

[Gavin C]

I'd lose the temperature probe and expand the basket.

I find my dial thermometer to be inaccurate at mash temps and rely on it only to indicate temperature stability. (It's not a Blichman though).

Actual mash/strike temps are measured with a Thermapen

 

[hafmpty]

I'd lose the temperature probe and expand the basket.

I have already plugged the thermometer hole. But the diptube is what's in the way. The basket is designed to rest on the ridge
the Blichmann false bottom rests on allowing wort to flow out of the bottom. The flat edge is about .25 inches away from bumping the diptube.

The other thing to remember is that I'm using this for 2.5gal batches so the basket only needs to be so big.

 

[Borgstrom]

I'd lose the temperature probe and expand the basket.

I find my dial thermometer to be inaccurate at mash temps and rely on it only to indicate temperature stability. (It's not a Blichman though).

Actual mash/strike temps are measured with a Thermapen

I totally agree. Unfortunately, I have a welded-in thermowell so I'd have to change kettles...and get a new bigger basket. Perhaps if/when I move from a 15g kettle to a 20g kettle....

 

[Gavin C]

I have already plugged the thermometer hole. But the diptube is what's in the way. The basket is designed to rest on the ridge
the Blichmann false bottom rests on allowing wort to flow out of the bottom. The flat edge is about .25 inches away from bumping the diptube.

The other thing to remember is that I'm using this for 2.5gal batches so the basket only needs to be so big.

Fair enough. Wasn't sure how far along in the design stage you are.

I would love to incorporate electric and recirculation eventually. Not anytime soon though. My kitchen is not equiped with 30A wiring. I don't fancy brewing outdoors or garage in the TX heat.

Best of luck with your setup.

 

[MerlinWerks]

I think gas BIAB has an edge over basket BIAB unless the basket folks can recirc all of the sediment back into the basket. Then make a fly-sparge type of runoff. The BIAC conical design is tops in my book. But very expensive.

I would tend to think that the amount of sediment that gets through would depend mostly on the fineness of your bag. In either case gas or electric once you stir a bit and raise the bag sediment is going to come through. I understand your point about the bag being suspended in an electric element setup possibly allowing more sediment through, but I noticed very little difference in the amount of sediment when I switched from an induction burner (no false bottom) to the Brew-Boss system, using Wilser bags in both setups.

As always YMMV

FWIW, I'm about to pull the trigger on a 400u basket from Chad :rockin:

 

[TexasWine]

I would tend to think that the amount of sediment that gets through would depend mostly on the fineness of your bag. In either case gas or electric once you stir a bit and raise the bag sediment is going to come through. I understand your point about the bag being suspended in an electric element setup possibly allowing more sediment through, but I noticed very little difference in the amount of sediment when I switched from an induction burner (no false bottom) to the Brew-Boss system, using Wilser bags in both setups.

As always YMMV

Ditto. No difference in sediment for me when I switched from stove top (no basket) to recirculating with a basket, both using wilser bags. If I was concerned about wort clarity going into the boil I would not use BIAB and instead go the multi vessel route.

 

[hafmpty]

I am looking at...updating my solid wall collander with a 200 or 300 micron mesh at the bottom...I am using a Wilser bag...

Just realized that you're the one I asked about updated pics of your colander that you had made by NorCal Brewing Solutions.

So you're using a grain bag huh? Have you had a chance to update the basket or try something else that's working? I know you're having issues with your element getting caked. I'll be using direct fire FWIW.

I've seriously considered getting a colander like what you have but with the mesh ONLY at the bottom.

Do you think this is the best solution for wort clarity and recirculation given your experiences with the colander?

What seems to be the major issues you had with your colander? You mention lots of flour when you dough in. Does this not clear up through the recirculation process?

Definitely don't want to spend $150 + S&H on something that isn't going to do what I want.

 

[Bassman2003]

well this is why I have been focusing on sediment a lot. The colander is a great design except the false bottom. I would only work with a conical boil kettle design. You have to be able to recover the initial grain fall-through or it will just stay in the kettle. False bottoms only work after the grain is puffed up. So it was a bit of an error on my part to go with that design.

I am looking at changing the bottom to one of these screens but am trying to determine how small to go with the mesh.

I am also aware that I am taking biab out of the "simple" zone but once I get stuff right I think it will be back to simple - just a little more expensive. But still way more affordable than a Bewha system.

 

[hafmpty]

The colander is a great design except the false bottom. I would only work with a conical boil kettle design.

I circulate...Everything is very clear, until I pull the bag. I've found that as soon as you disrupt that grain bed all bets are off in clarify.

This has been a key piece for me as far as sediment goes. As soon as I mess with that bag/basket/colander/etc. I disrupt the grain bed. If I disrupt the grain bed, stuff is going to fall through.

As I see it I have two options:
1. Don't disrupt the grain bed
2. Do what I can about sediment and don't care about what gets through.

I'm considering just not disrupting the grain bed by draining out the wort and then pulling the basket. Or...I have the other option of just not caring about the sediment.

You seem to make a lot of wheat beers so that doesn't seem to be an option or at least not an option you're happy with. I'm thinking along similar lines.

I wonder if you couldn't use your colander or something similar in a Ss Brewtech Chronical or BrewBucket or something like that. Install some weldless element fittings or even silver solder some of the triclamp element fittings from Bobby at BrewHardware.com

Or maybe have a cone bottom welded to your existing brew pot. Or flip a keg over for a bottom draining pot.

Tough call. You've probably been researching and reading like crazy. I know when I'm brainstorming I do that.

Good luck.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am pretty far down this road, but it is kind of fun trying to engineer my way out. When I made the switch to BIAB I decided to upgrade my keggle from the 10+ ago initial install. So I hired a welder to weld on screw-in element couplers and also had him install a bottom drain to the keg. I am travelling now but can post images in the future. The drain is awesome but the slope of the keg is still a bit flat for sediment. So I might just try to add some thin SS material wound up in a cone shape. I don't know yet.

About the grain bed. I think you want to disturb it from time to time for good efficiency. I think the optimum would be to stir all the way up to the mashout (170f) then let the recirc make a nice bed before lifting. I like step mashes so this makes the situation more complicated as well. I guess I just seem to like complicated!

As a side note, the red ale I brewed right before the hefeweizen had very little sediment at all. It is just the wheat that is the issue. And the sediment has no bearing on the finished beer, just the heating elements.

 

[foles]

The basket should take up as much of the pot as possible, minimizing dead space. I have a short RTD probe in an externally welded port that allows a 350mm diameter basket on a 400mm pot comfortably (could have made it wider). You already have a bit of dead space with the feet (mine are 70mm), which I use to keep above the element and the pickup.

Dead space is an issue when considering overall L:G ratio. I mash full volume (or at least 4L:kg), and believe a thin mash is actually better overall (refer German brewing techniques). Don't buy into the whole "COFI" filter thing that BrewBoss has put together - thick mashes are so 2000's

These baskets are game changers for single vessel brewing. Much simpler and more robust to work with than even the Braumeister (unless you make it complicated like the Brewboss).

 

[zeptrey]

Anybody here RIMS with their BIAB setup and and use a Basket? I'm thinking something that I can detach from the kettle and fire up the KAB6 to get the boil ripping quick. If you guys are having issues with the elements getting caked with the element in the bottom of the kettle, would the RIMS tube make it worse?

 

[foles]

Anybody here RIMS with their BIAB setup and and use a Basket? I'm thinking something that I can detach from the kettle and fire up the KAB6 to get the boil ripping quick. If you guys are having issues with the elements getting caked with the element in the bottom of the kettle, would the RIMS tube make it worse?

The element won't have any issues because the basket feet keeps the grain above the element and separated.

 

[zeptrey]

The element won't have any issues because the basket feet keeps the grain above the element and separated.

If people are having issues with the element getting caked in the kettle, I was just thinking in a tube it'd have to be worse.

 

[Bassman2003]

In my experience, the elements get caked when the fine stuff is floating around (early in the mash) or if there is no movement of liquid. if the movement stalls the element gets hotter and things stick.

So, it is important to let the mash get settled in before turning on the elements. My last hefe I forgot to turn the element off from "hold" and I got a lot of stuff stuck on.

The basket will not help unless it is very fine. Finer than bags. This is complicated stuff but hopefully we will find the best way through discussion here

 

[The_Bishop]

Now you guys have me thinking.

What if the basket was solid walled, with a mesh bottom so that liquid could only flow downward through it. With recirculation, you'd end up with what amounts to a mash tun in a kettle. When you lift it out, the grain wouldn't be disturbed so much and clarity should stay good and sediment should be minimal.

 

[hafmpty]

Now you guys have me thinking.

What if the basket was solid walled, with a mesh bottom so that liquid could only flow downward through it. With recirculation, you'd end up with what amounts to a mash tun in a kettle. When you lift it out, the grain wouldn't be disturbed so much and clarity should stay good and sediment should be minimal.

That's what Bassman2003 has. But as he said earlier, he's looking into getting it retrofitted with a mesh bottom instead of the typical "false bottom" material. With the current setup, it seems he still uses a WilserBag because of the sediment caused (at least from my reckoning, his wheat beers).

 

[taloncrwchf]

Now you guys have me thinking.

What if the basket was solid walled, with a mesh bottom so that liquid could only flow downward through it. With recirculation, you'd end up with what amounts to a mash tun in a kettle. When you lift it out, the grain wouldn't be disturbed so much and clarity should stay good and sediment should be minimal.

This is how the malt pipe on the Braumeister is setup, except that the wort is recirculated from the bottom of the grain bed.

 

[The_Bishop]

Right, and they do a bottom-up circulation to avoid stuck mashes no matter what the crush is like. You'll still disrupt the 'filter' of the grain bed when you lift up to extract the basket. If you circulate top down, and slowly withdraw the basket at the end of the mash, you're still allowing the wort to drain in the direction it was circulating in.

 

[foles]

Just stick with an all mesh basket. It doesn't disturb as much as the bag because the walls don't move around. I just pull up my basket carefully and hang it on the edge of the basket with the hooks and it drains nicely. Grain bed seems to set nicely.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I have exactly that solid wall design. I think a basket would work just fine as well. My hope is to limit the amount of sediment with a finer mesh, but I can see this is unchartered territory and will probably require some experimentation by me.

Maybe I can order some different sized meshes and just place them over my false bottom to see how a mash goes.

I will call the mesh people next week and see what they say. The 74 micron mesh in the video really peaked my interest. It may gum up but when I pick it apart, if it took a little longer to drain like a fly sparge I don't think it would be an issue for me. Testing is the only way to know.

 

[The_Bishop]

I would think that 74 micron mesh would just plug up, personally. Never know unless you try, though.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I am in the process of switching over to eBIAB. Need to finish my garage brewery renovation before I can brew, so note that I have not tested what I am about to describe.

I designed my system with a 400 micron basket and got 4 of the j hook hangers that suspend the basket over the kettle (see picture). My thinking is I can:
- winch the basket up after mashout
- hang it on the hooks
- remove winch
- put sparge arm back in
- recirc to reset the grain bed in "drain mode"

Then switch over to my HLT for sparging (optional)

 

[The_Bishop]

I think that there's too much focus on wort clarity going on here. As long as you don't have husk material in the kettle, you'll be good. Some of these ideas get in the way of the simplicity of BIAB.

If pre-boil wort clarity is important to you, then maybe consider a two vessel system.

Wort clarity isn't going to be obtained via very fine mesh sizes in the basket. What I think is more likely is that the basket with plug up and either drain very slowly or not at all. If you look at a traditional mash tun with a full false bottom, the 'grain strainer' usually has huge openings compared to the BIAB bags/baskets. Recirculation obtains clear wort by using the grain bed as a filter which I think is something that falls outside the 'usual' BIAB process.

 

[hafmpty]

I think that there's too much focus on wort clarity going on here. As long as you don't have husk material in the kettle, you'll be good. Some of these ideas get in the way of the simplicity of BIAB.

I agree to a point. There might be too much focus on wort clarity for you. But focusing on wort clarity is part of the reason I asked the initial question. Whenever you add something to your brewing process, there are trade-offs. Add a pump, you no longer have to lift (as much at least), but you've got something else to clean and something else that needs attention. Add a basket instead of a bag, recirculation vs. set-it-and-forget-it, etc. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

For those that want a simple BIAB they'll have a simple BIAB setup. You'll get flour in your wort. For some, that doesn't matter. For others it does. For some if they can minimize the amount of flour, they are going to try. For those that want clear wort, they might be willing to trade some of the simplicity of BIAB for wort clarity, something they perceive to be worth it. That, to me, is what this discussion has centered around.

For me, I want to try a few different things to see what I can do to minimize flour in the kettle. So I'm going to...

1. Crush a bit looser.
2. Recirculate for temp stability.
3. Slowly pull the basket.
4. Not squeeze the grains
5. See what the results are.

If I'm happy...cool. If not then...

I'll try recirculating a bit more after I raise the basket to see if I can "reset" the grain bed and get clear wort. If I'm happy...cool. If not then...

I'll leave the grain basket in place and drain the wort into a bucket. I'll pull the basket, pour the wort back into the kettle and go from there. If I'm happy...cool. If not then...

I'll try something else or adjust my expectations.