Help me identify microscope pics of yeast / bacteria

[noisecontrol]

Hey guys, I was building up a culture of WLP001 from a plate and it looks rather funky. Can anybody identify the long ones that are chained together?
I decided not to pitch this in anything as it looked pretty nasty under the scope.
In the second picture there is a little ball of stringy things, I though this may be trub or bacteria. Any help is welcomed.

 

[Nagorg]

?

 

[Nagorg]

So... To be clear, I have no idea but this post caught my curiosity. I'm not sure I'd want to look at the yeast I was going to pitch under a microscope unless I could explain this sort of thing. Looking at various examples of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, I agree that those "things" do look anomalous. (Yes I know I've been of no help whatsoever but this is interesting nonetheless...)

 

[slarkin712]

Long rods appear to be some kind of lactobacillus. Although they don't look exactly like the ones I've seen with my phase contrast scope, so maybe not. Just a guess.

 

[Oginme]

No idea on the long ones other than they are NOT yeast cells.

 

[TheMadKing]

Just consulted my microbiologist SWMBO.

She says the long chains in the first picture are likely a harmless airborne bacteria, and probably won't hurt your yeast. They commonly form "filaments" like that and likely will not grow. She said they are almost impossible to culture even in lab conditions.

The second one looks more like cellulose, dust, or a synthetic fibre because of the hard edges.

She also was curious what you're looking for by examining these samples. If you're attempting to determine health or cell count, you need to stain the slides or they don't tell you any real information.

If you're just looking for fun then carry on!

 

[noisecontrol]

Thanks for the replies.
I was hoping to count cell viability afterwards but it looked so suspicious I decided not to bother. I never considered that they might be harmless bacteria to beer flavour but I'd rather not see anything in there but yeast. Definitely glad to get a microbiologist's opinion.
Actually the starter got knocked over on the bench and perhaps that's when nasties got in. I wondered if it was brett or wild yeast, as this image from the Milk the Funk Brett page looks kinda similar. As mentioned above Candida Albicans does look similar too.

 

[Nagorg]

Glad you mentioned Brett cause I saw similarities too. But, I'd take the microbiologists input with a higher degree of confidence!

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks for the replies.
I was hoping to count cell viability afterwards but it looked so suspicious I decided not to bother. I never considered that they might be harmless bacteria to beer flavour but I'd rather not see anything in there but yeast. Definitely glad to get a microbiologist's opinion.
Actually the starter got knocked over on the bench and perhaps that's when nasties got in. I wondered if it was brett or wild yeast, as this image from the Milk the Funk Brett page looks kinda similar. As mentioned above Candida Albicans does look similar too.

If you want to count cell viability, you'll have to stain the slide with dilute methyl blue. The live yeast cells will reject the dye and the dead cells will turn blue.

 

[lshaner]

Need to nip a few things in the bud here. Those long rod-shaped organisms are not bacteria. Bacteria are many, many times smaller than yeast and the organisms in that picture are similarly sized to the yeast in the sample. It's some sort of fungus. Can't say exactly what variety it is without further testing. One also can't say whether something is or isn't going to produce off flavors in beer from just microscopic examination.

 

[TheMadKing]

Need to nip a few things in the bud here. Those long rod-shaped organisms are not bacteria. Bacteria are many, many times smaller than yeast and the organisms in that picture are similarly sized to the yeast in the sample. It's some sort of fungus. Can't say exactly what variety it is without further testing. One also can't say whether something is or isn't going to produce off flavors in beer from just microscopic examination.

Individual bacteria usually are, but not if they are joined into filaments. There are also bacteria that are the same size as yeast, they come in all shapes and sizes.

It is likely not a fungus. Fungus usually "branch" much more (like an oak limb) and rarely form straight segments.

Notice that I'm using qualifiers such as "likely" and "usually."

It's impossible to speak with certainty from looking at a picture of a microscope image. But I can tell you that SWMBO here has looked at thousands of slides and performed hundreds of cultures, so her eyes have a better idea of what's going on than mine

 

[lshaner]

Individual bacteria usually are, but not if they are joined into filaments. There are also bacteria that are the same size as yeast, they come in all shapes and sizes.

It is likely not a fungus. Fungus usually "branch" much more (like an oak limb) and rarely form straight segments.

Notice that I'm using qualifiers such as "likely" and "usually."

It's impossible to speak with certainty from looking at a picture of a microscope image. But I can tell you that SWMBO here has looked at thousands of slides and performed hundreds of cultures, so her eyes have a better idea of what's going on than mine

I use the term fungus in the broadest sense. Yeast is also a fungus. Regarding size, even bacteria that form chains, such as Lactobacillus, have a much smaller diameter than yeast. So while the Lacto chain/filament may be longer than a yeast cell, it's still significantly smaller in diameter. The cells in the filaments we see in the OP's picture are close to the diameter of the yeast cells. I say with 100% confidence (as a microbiologist), that those are not bacteria.

 

[TheMadKing]

I use the term fungus in the broadest sense. Yeast is also a fungus. Regarding size, even bacteria that form chains, such as Lactobacillus, have a much smaller diameter than yeast. So while the Lacto chain/filament may be longer than a yeast cell, it's still significantly smaller in diameter. The cells in the filaments we see in the OP's picture are close to the diameter of the yeast cells. I say with 100% confidence (as a microbiologist), that those are not bacteria.

I'm repeating the opinion of another microbiologist as well. She doesn't discount the possibility that it is indeed some wild yeast, and admits that it's nearly impossible to identify from this picture alone. Her argument is:

"Bacterial filaments are far more abundant in the air, and their morphology is diverse enough that this seems the more likely explanation to me. I agree that the size is more in line with a eukaryote than a prokaryote, but there are large prokaryotes and small eukaryotes. That isn't to say that it can't be a wild yeast of some kind, I was just stating what, in my opinion, was a more likely contaminant. Without plating and staining it, there's no way to identify it with 100% confidence."

2 microbiologists, 2 opinions I suppose.

The important point is that both of you agree that it is likely harmless to the beer.

 

[GHBWNY]

Hey guys, I was building up a culture of WLP001 from a plate and it looks rather funky. Can anybody identify the long ones that are chained together?
I decided not to pitch this in anything as it looked pretty nasty under the scope.
In the second picture there is a little ball of stringy things, I though this may be trub or bacteria. Any help is welcomed.

The second pic is kinda like what I see all the time.

 

[lshaner]

Agreed that you can't be absolutely sure what exactly it is without further testing. But for that same reason, I don't agree that we know it wouldn't cause a problem with the beer. How do we know it wouldn't produce off-flavors if we don't know what it is. Given that we know there's something in there that isn't brewing yeast, I would chuck it.

 

[TheMadKing]

Agreed that you can't be absolutely sure what exactly it is without further testing. But for that same reason, I don't agree that we know it wouldn't cause a problem with the beer. How do we know it wouldn't produce off-flavors if we don't know what it is. Given that we know there's something in there that isn't brewing yeast, I would chuck it.

"My opinion that it's likely harmless is based on this reasoning: if it is bacteria then it has filimented which makes it far less likely to propagate. If it is fungal, then it is more likely to be a wild yeast strain than a mold because of the lack of branching. If it is a wild yeast strain then it will likely have a slower growth rate than the S. Cerevisiae and will simply be out competed.

If it is none of these, then there is a possibility that it will indeed cause off flavors, but in my mind that is the smaller possibility."

It really comes down to the OP's peace of mind. If you're at all worried about it, just chuck it. If you're willing to take the risk (which is small, in her opinion) of making a funky brett beer then go for it, and most likely, things will turn out fine anyway.

 

[lshaner]

If it's a wild yeast like Brett, or some other POF+ wild yeast, it will indeed get out-competed in terms of cell count due to Sacch's much higher rate of reproduction in wort. However, sheer numbers don't tell the whole story. We conducted a study of how fast Brett can cause changes to flavor profile in the bottle at different pitch rates. Even at the lowest pitch rate (50,000 cells per mL), Brett had dropped the 4-VG (clove) levels to below threshold and gotten 4-EP and 4-EG levels (collectively considered the compounds responsible for "funk" in Brett beers) to above threshold in three short weeks.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces_secondary_fermentation_experiment

TL;DR -- Extremely low cell counts of wild yeast can cause significant flavor changes in a short period of time.

 

[TheMadKing]

If it's a wild yeast like Brett, or some other POF+ wild yeast, it will indeed get out-competed in terms of cell count due to Sacch's much higher rate of reproduction in wort. However, sheer numbers don't tell the whole story. We conducted a study of how fast Brett can cause changes to flavor profile in the bottle at different pitch rates. Even at the lowest pitch rate (50,000 cells per mL), Brett had dropped the 4-VG (clove) levels to below threshold and gotten 4-EP and 4-EG levels (collectively considered the compounds responsible for "funk" in Brett beers) to above threshold in three short weeks.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces_secondary_fermentation_experiment

TL;DR -- Extremely low cell counts of wild yeast can cause significant flavor changes in a short period of time.

That's really interesting. She's never done any specific studies of Brett, so that's new info all around. Thanks for sharing!

 

[noisecontrol]

Thanks guys, helps a lot. I decided not to pitch the yeast. At the end of the day I'd rather not risk it and it helps to begin to recognize different things under the scope.
Since we have such fine folk in the forum:
In another starter I found several of these weird pyramid shaped things. Any ideas what these are?
And lastly, these little circular clusters, are they likely to be some form of coccus, maybe pedio?

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks guys, helps a lot. I decided not to pitch the yeast. At the end of the day I'd rather not risk it and it helps to begin to recognize different things under the scope.
Since we have such fine folk in the forum:
In another starter I found several of these weird pyramid shaped things. Any ideas what these are?
And lastly, these little circular clusters, are they likely to be some form of coccus, maybe pedio?

The picture on your hemocytometer looks like a salt crystal (or other crystal). NaCl always fractures in a perfect cubic shape so that seems possible. It's likely inorganic though.

The second one could be anything, but is more likely bacteria of some sort.

If they are staph or strep they won't hurt your beer because the pH generated by the yeast will kill them, but it's impossible to really be sure.

 

[noisecontrol]

Ok cool thanks. Actually I had the thought that the cubic thing may have come from the agar plate. I bought them from a lab but salt or some other chemical would be plausible. They had an antibiotic in them too actually. Cheers for the input.

 

[Nagorg]

Seems like you have lots of UFO's!

 

[jimyoung]

Just chiming in to say how awesome this is. However, I'm not sure if this makes me WANT a microscope, or never look at my yeast for fear of what I'll find...

 

[Stillraining]

+1 ignorance is bliss

 

[passedpawn]

Hey guys, I was building up a culture of WLP001 from a plate and it looks rather funky. Can anybody identify the long ones that are chained together?
I decided not to pitch this in anything as it looked pretty nasty under the scope.
In the second picture there is a little ball of stringy things, I though this may be trub or bacteria. Any help is welcomed.

Here's a scope shot I took of 2001 under my scope. Those long ones in your pic clearly don't belong

 

[passedpawn]

This yeast...

resulted in this...

 

[passedpawn]

Here's what lacto looks like while growing. I compressed 20 minutes into a few sec.

 

[jimyoung]

*shudder* this gives me the heebie jeebies

 

[Nagorg]

Dang.... Am I gonna have to put a microscope on my brew gear wish list now? lol

 

[cgljmcgee]

Ok cool thanks. Actually I had the thought that the cubic thing may have come from the agar plate. I bought them from a lab but salt or some other chemical would be plausible. They had an antibiotic in them too actually. Cheers for the input.

hi there the pyramid picture you ask about is calcium oxalate or beer stone as it is more commonly known.

 

[McMullan]

Hey guys, I was building up a culture of WLP001 from a plate and it looks rather funky. Can anybody identify the long ones that are chained together?
I decided not to pitch this in anything as it looked pretty nasty under the scope.
In the second picture there is a little ball of stringy things, I though this may be trub or bacteria. Any help is welcomed.

View attachment 328324

View attachment 328325

Just realised it's an old thread, but thought I'd leave this here anyway.

https://www.scielo.br/j/bjm/a/yKFZX3FMfkVNcDVsQKYrX9N/?format=html&stop=previous&lang=en

 

[fluketamer]

Here's what lacto looks like while growing. I compressed 20 minutes into a few sec.

thats really sweet work.