Help!! Foam, foam and more foam!!

[IwanaBrich]

I just built a 3 tap kegerator and I can't seem to get a good pour out of it. No matter what I try all I get is glasses of 80% foam.

My kegerator is made from a smallish upright Whirlpool refrigerator. It fits 3 Corny Kegs with the CO2 tank inside. It has 3 stainless steel Flow Control Intertap faucets using 4" stainless steel shanks that are installed through the door, The faucets are about 6" above the top of the kegs. Each tap has 15 feet of Accuflex Bev-Seal Ultra beer line and uses John Guest push to connect fittings. Even though the lines are rather stiff I've managed to coil them up neatly without any kinks. Before I put this together I visited a few web sites to help calculate the line lengths. All the sites all came in between 12 and 15 feet so I went with 15.

So far I varied the temp form 37°F to 45°F and the CO2 pressure between 10 and 20 PSI. I also tried varying the flow using the faucet control and each change in pressure or temp. Unfortunately, nothing helps, all I get is glasses of foam!

As for my beer, I forced carb my beer by setting the pressure up at 30 PSI for a few days (2 to 3), then I lower it to normal levels. Unfortunately I don't have any way of actually measuring the CO2 level in my beer. All I know is that I've done it this way for years using party taps (with 2 ft 3/16" lines) and I've never had a foam issue like this.

So now I'm at a loss what I should do next. Any suggestions???

Your thought and comments are appreciated.

 

[hvjackson]

Ok first of all, you may be over-carbonating your kegs. 30 psi at 3 days strikes me as too much. If you must burst carb (personally I think it's not worth the effort/risk), try 1 day at 30 psi then drop down to 10-12psi. If you are over-carbing, it can take a while for the keg to settle back to a normal pressure. Try shutting the CO2 off and venting the keg a few times over a few days. And/or drink some of the beer, which will make more room in the keg for extra CO2 to come out of solution.

Secondly, your lines are plenty long but what is the ID of the tubing? That is a critical piece of this. If you are using 3/16" ID tubing (common for kegerators) you want about 6 feet. If you have a larger tubing you will need more... maybe a lot more.

As for temp and pressure, colder beer will foam less but also require less CO2 pressures. 38 ºF and 10-12 psi is about what you want. Stop messing with it. You could go a little warmer & higher if you want but you will cause more foaming and you will need more tubing.

Finally, are you confidant your kegerator is cooling evenly? If the beer is warmer than you think it is, that can definitely cause problems. If you are basically using a stock fridge there *shouldn't* be an issue, but sometimes with homemade keezers there can actually be a large temperature variation inside, and a fan can help with that.

 

[jmcquesten]

Ok first of all, you may be over-carbonating your kegs. 30 psi at 3 days strikes me as too much. If you must burst carb (personally I think it's not worth the effort/risk), try 1 day at 30 psi then drop down to 10-12psi.

Secondly, your lines are plenty long but what is the ID of the tubing? That is a critical piece of this. If you are using 3/16" ID tubing (common for kegerators) you want about 6 feet. If you have a larger tubing you will need more... maybe a lot more.

As for temp and pressure, colder beer will foam less but also require less CO2 pressures. 35 ºF and 12 psi is about what you want. Stop messing with it.You could go a little warmer & higher if you want but you will cause more foaming and you will need more tubing.

Finally, are you confidant your kegerator is cooling evenly? If the beer is warmer than you think it is, that can definitely cause problems. If you are basically using a stock fridge there *shouldn't* be an issue, but sometimes with homemade keezers there can actually be a large temperature variation inside, and a fan can help with that.

6 ft of line isn't necessarily true. Also, 35°F might not be what he wants, and 12 psi is not always going to be the pressure. Try mikesoltys.com line length calculator and make sure your beer isn't over carbonated.

 

[hvjackson]

6 ft of line isn't necessarily true. Also, 35°F might not be what he wants, and 12 psi is not always going to be the pressure. Try mikesoltys.com line length calculator and make sure your beer isn't over carbonated.

True but 6 ft of 3/16" ID line, 38 ºF, and 12 psi will get OP 95% of the way there. That will be perfectly pourable and middle-of-the-road carbonation. If they want to fine-tune temp or carbonation from there by all means, but casting about with huge lengths of line and 20 psi is not a good place to start.

 

[Neptune]

If you carbed them cold this time the same way you used to carb them warm... they are overcarbed.

I carb mine cold around that pressure but it's done in 36 hours. Yours sound overcarbed. Try your old 2 ft party tap and see if you can get a good pour.

 

[Neptune]

If you can get a good pour out of your old set up, then it's not overcarbed...

In that case it's likely, as stated, that your lines are warmer than your keg. I battled this for a while. It's annoying. Good luck.

 

[LLBeanJ]

If you can get a good pour out of your old set up, then it's not overcarbed...

I don't agree with this. Two different setups may not be able to tolerate the same level of carbonation. A carb level that the old setup tolerated just fine may give symptoms of overcarbonation in another setup, which is what appears to be happening here. The new setup sounds like it's right where it should be as far as temp, line length and diameter, and the use of JG fittings for the rigid tubing. As mentioned above, the beer is overcarbonated and OP just needs to decarb the kegs a bit and it should take care of the issue.

 

[sancycling]

I had a foam problem using Perlick Flow Control faucets, I understand that the design is similar to Intertap. I found that hop particles or other stuff would get stuck in the flow control mechanism, that would cause turbulence and foam, lots of foam.
I checked everything that others above have suggested but no luck.
My solution was to take out the flow control piece. No unwanted foam!
Give it a try. You can always put it back together as it was meant to be.
Good luck.

 

[schatzke]

True but 6 ft of 3/16" ID line, 38 ºF, and 12 psi will get OP 95% of the way there. That will be perfectly pourable and middle-of-the-road carbonation. If they want to fine-tune temp or carbonation from there by all means, but casting about with huge lengths of line and 20 psi is not a good place to start.

The tubing the OP is using is a bit "slicker" than the regular beverage tubing, hence the longer line length. I used that bev seal ultra for awhile and longer line lengths were needed vs. the more common beverage tubing.

 

[schatzke]

All I know is that I've done it this way for years using party taps (with 2 ft 3/16" lines) and I've never had a foam issue like this.

So now I'm at a loss what I should do next. Any suggestions???

Your thought and comments are appreciated.

Hook up one of your old picnic tap lines and see if you get a glass of foam. As some others have said I think you may be overcarbonating with the length of time you have it set at 30 psi.
After you reduce the pressure from 30 to serving pressure do you bleed the excess off of the keg? I would try setting it to 30 for 24-36 hours, set pressure to 10-12 psi and bleed the excess off the keg.

 

[Neptune]

I don't agree with this. Two different setups may not be able to tolerate the same level of carbonation. A carb level that the old setup tolerated just fine may give symptoms of overcarbonation in another setup, which is what appears to be happening here.

If the carbonation is correct inside the keg then I agree with this, and the reasons for it would come down to line length, temperature differential, etc...

As mentioned above, the beer is overcarbonated and OP just needs to decarb the kegs a bit and it should take care of the issue.

This is what I suggested. If the beer is overcarbonated inside the keg then his old setup would reveal this because he would be pouring glasses full of foam with his old setup. The old setup would not be able to "correct" this problem. He would be unable to obtain a good pour no matter the setup. If all of his previous batches were carbed correctly inside the keg and he had good pours with his old setup, then he should be getting good pours right now with his old setup if he got the carbonation correct with his new setup.

 

[IwanaBrich]

All great advice....

First let me begin by stating that my lines are 3/16" ID. I also "think" that they may be one of the issues. Yes, I think I have at least two issues.

Well I attached my old Party Tap I confirmed what many of you suspect....that I'm over carbed. I also noticed that the lines had a lot of air in them...or CO2...not sure. I'm thinking that its more likely CO2...right? If the fittings let loose or leaked wouldn't I see beer leaking everywhere since its under pressure? Could the over carbed beer be causing the "bubbles" in the lines? If is air, I'm concerned that the this tubing may be too stiff for my configuration, since I need to permit the door to open and close. I may need to use more flexible tubing.

Thoughts?

 

[jmcquesten]

True but 6 ft of 3/16" ID line, 38 ºF, and 12 psi will get OP 95% of the way there. That will be perfectly pourable and middle-of-the-road carbonation. If they want to fine-tune temp or carbonation from there by all means, but casting about with huge lengths of line and 20 psi is not a good place to start.

This is still not true. 12 psi at 38° will get you around 2.55 volumes of co2. This is actually a little on the low side, especially if you start talking about wheat beers. At 12 psi, the calculator that I mentioned says that you would need 10.18 ft of 3/16 beer line, so 6 ft is not quite "95%" of the way there. If you don't like the precise-ness of that calculator and would rather use the "1ft per 1 psi" rule, it would still be 12 ft. So, if you use the calculator, you will have a good place to start (after you take care of the over-carbonation).

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Could the over carbed beer be causing the "bubbles" in the lines?[...]

Certainly. If your dispensing pressure/temperature combination calculates to an effective carbonation level that is below that of the kegged beer, that beer is going to lose CO2 until it reaches equilibrium in its new environment.

fwiw, if that keg was cold when you did the 3 days at 30psi, it's yugely overcarbed...

Cheers!

 

[IwanaBrich]

The keg and beer were both warm when I started force carbing. How do you force carb your beer?

How should I "un-carb" this batch and how will I know when it is ready? I wish there was a cheap way of measuring the co2 level in the beer.

I really appreciate everyones input on this.

 

[Neptune]

Well I attached my old Party Tap I confirmed what many of you suspect....that I'm over carbed. I also noticed that the lines had a lot of air in them...or CO2...not sure. I'm thinking that its more likely CO2...right? If the fittings let loose or leaked wouldn't I see beer leaking everywhere since its under pressure?

Yeah, it's almost certainly CO2 and the reason could be due to overcarbing. Or it could be due to a damaged O-ring on the liquid side (unlikely if it just started happening to all three at the same time as you changed to a new setup with no issues before). Another very real possibility is that the lines are warmer than the liquid inside your keg. If you've ever thrown a cold keg in a tub of ice outside on a warm summer day with a long picnic tap setup you can watch the bubbles form almost instantaneously in the lines.

The keg and beer were both warm when I started force carbing. How do you force carb your beer?

When you started? Basically I'll put a room temperature keg in the keezer and hit it with about 30-35 psi (while it cools) for 36 hours and it's done just about perfect every time.

 

[Neptune]

How should I "un-carb" this batch and how will I know when it is ready?

Pretty sure the only way is to take it off gas and keep venting it... I've heard that you can shake the keg and vent it to accelerate the process, but that seems messy.

 

[jmcquesten]

There is a way to lower the carbonation quickly. You can do a search and find the thread about it. It involves hooking up a co2 line to the LIQUID side of the keg. While the gas is bubbling up through the beer, it agitates it and scrubs some of the carbonation out of the beer. Then you release the pressure through the release valve. You would have to connect a liquid disconnect to a co2 line to set it up. I'm not sure how long it takes, but it's supposed to be a quick process.

Obviously disconnect the keg from gas and liquid lines before trying this.

 

[LLBeanJ]

How do you force carb your beer?

If the keg is warm, 48 hours @ 30 PSI, then purge and set to 10-12 PSI. If the keg is already cold, decrease time @ 30 PSI to 36 hours.

How should I "un-carb" this batch and how will I know when it is ready?

Shut off the gas and purge the headspace. Do this 3-4 times over the course of a day and that should be enough unless it's way overcarbed, then it could take a bit longer. After a 3-4 purges, turn the gas back on @ 10-12 PSI and pour a glass. When it pours like you want it, you're there. If still too foamy, continue with a purge/wait cycle for another day. If you go to far it will just be a little undercarbed, not a big deal. Set to 10-12 PSI and it will finish carbing back up over the next few days to a week.

 

[mongoose33]

If it's that much overcarbed, purging a few times isn't going to do much unless there's a lot of headspace.

Assuming you have a pressure relief valve on the keg lid, simply open that valve for a couple hours. It's like what happens when you pour a beer--the carbonation comes out over time.

After a couple hours, close the valve, put 10psi on the keg, and see if the pour is better. If not enough, repeat.

When I force carb I put the beer on 30 or 36 psi for 20-24 hours. That gets it close, then I just put it on serving pressure after that. If your beer was cold when you force carbed, you are overcarbed if you did it for 2-3 days.

 

[IwanaBrich]

I thought an update is in order.

Well as you know that I initially encountered a lot foam after reattaching my trusty party tap, so my brew was in fact overcharged. So I followed all your advice and turned off the CO2 and purged the gas through out the day and buy last evening I was getting perfect pours with my party tap. I assume that the beer was now finally charged correctly. So, early this morning I cleaned, sanitized and reattached the 3/16" Accuflex Bev-Seal Ultra tubing back on to the keg and faucet. I waited several hours for things to "calm down" and I tried a pour. Well, I got lots of foam.....not as much as before, but I'd say the glass was 50% foam. (I guess the optimist would say that I got 50% beer) Yeah this is better than 90% foam, but it still sucks!

So now I'm at a loss what to do. I think the fact the party tap worked perfectly, that the foam issue is not faulty poppets, overcharged beer or bad corny keg O-rings. That leaves the tubing and faucets, Should I shorten the tubing, make it longer or just replace it with something else? I hope it isn't the Intertap faucets because I can't afford to scrap or change those.

 

[LLBeanJ]

All else being equal, I think you need longer line. The Bev-Seal line is great stuff, but it has less resistance than regular PVC beer line, so the beer flows faster and then is breaking up into foam once it hits the faucet. A longer line length will add more resistance and slow down the flow. If you're at 15' now, I'd guess that you'd likely need to be running 20-25' to be able to pour at the same carb level that your picnic tap will allow without excessive foaming.

That being said, if you don't want to replace your line (honestly, I wouldn't bother), you can go with less carbonation in order to match the carb level of the beer with what your system as currently set up will tolerate. Decarb some more until you get good pours and see if the carb level is suitable to you. You can also try chilling the beer to a lower temp, as that will help reduce foaming. Your initial post stated that you have varied the temp between 37 and 45, but I'm not sure where you are now. If not currently there, try going back to 37° or even a bit lower (say, 35°). If you do try this, turn off the gas and purge the headspace beforehand, as the lower temp will allow the beer to absorb more CO2, effectively increasing the carbonation and you don't want that right now while you're trying to troubleshoot.

Just as a point of reference, I'm running 6' of Bev-Seal @ 38-40° with Perlick flow-control taps and I don't have foaming issues too often. When I do, I reduce the flow at the faucet, but if that doesn't work I drop the carb level to where it pours correctly. At that point, it's probably a little undercarbed for style, but it's perfectly acceptable to me. I'm currently in the process of building a new 5-tap keezer and will be going with 10' lines and just as with my current tap setup, I will tailor the carbonation to fit what my system will handle without foaming all over the place.

 

[MagicMatt]

All else being equal, I think you need longer line. The Bev-Seal line is great stuff, but it has less resistance than regular PVC beer line, so the beer flows faster and then is breaking up into foam once it hits the faucet. A longer line length will add more resistance and slow down the flow. If you're at 15' now, I'd guess that you'd likely need to be running 20-25' to be able to pour at the same carb level that your picnic tap will allow without excessive foaming.

This isn't true, otherwise he never would have gotten "perfect" pours after venting the keg yesterday.

Instead, what it seems happened is he vented the keg's headspace and then got correct pours at the correct serving pressure, but the beer was still overcarbed.

When a beer is overcarbed to a level higher than that of the serving pressure being applied, the beer will constantly release CO2 until it reaches an equalibrium with the headspace. So what happened is his beer was carbed to say 3.5 vols, but the pressure applied was set to 2.5 vols (relative to the temp). Hence, the beer constantly pushed the headspace pressure above serving pressure, and hence nothing but foam.

When he vented the keg, it reset the headspace pressure so that once he applied his serving pressure again it was correct for a while until the beer again released enough CO2 to push the headspace pressure up too high, and hence causing foaming issues.

OP, what I would recommend is to fully purge the headspace, attach your gas immediately to the serving pressure (~12psi) and pour a fresh pint (or two, to ensure the lines were cold enough). My guess is you'll have a mostly fine pour. If the beer is still overcarbed you may get a decent head, but it shouldn't be mostly foam if you are close to your desired carb level. If you still get tons of foam, then it sounds like you're still way overcarbed. I would remove the gas line and open the PRV constantly for several hours and let it vent that way. The only side-effect to leaving it open too long is it may let all of the carbonation out in which case you'll have to start over with carbing it.

A side note, you said you wished there was a way to check the carbonation. Well there is, in a round about way. I use one of these from Williams Brewing:

It actually measures the headspace pressure, but assuming the beer and headspace have equalized it will tell you where you stand carbonation-wise. How you would use it in this case is to remove the gas line and let the keg sit for a couple of days (I'm not sure how long it really takes, but it takes time) to equalibriate the pressure. Then pop this guy on the "in" post and it will tell you the pressure, which you can then use along with the keg's temp to determine the carbonation level.

 

[Neptune]

I think MagicMatt is on the right track here, but I would also like to reiterate another possibility if you're still struggling with it... Temperature differential between the liquid in your keg and the ambient temp in your keezer (a good circulating fan is critical for this reason). I make sure my liquid lines are all "tucked" in between the kegs and not coiled up on top of them to help with this.

If you've eliminated O-rings and poppets (it seems you have) and you've eliminated overcarbing (maybe not yet) then this is going to be the likely culprit. Line length "could" be the cause, but 15 feet seems adequate.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Temperature differential between the liquid in your keg and the ambient temp in your keezer (a good circulating fan is critical for this reason). I make sure my liquid lines are all "tucked" in between the kegs and not coiled up on top of them to help with this.[...]

If you actually have a "good circulating fan" there's no reason not to coil your lines atop your kegs as the entire interior volume should be at the same temperature.



Cheers!

 

[Neptune]

If you actually have a "good circulating fan" there's no reason not to coil your lines atop your kegs as the entire interior volume should be at the same temperature.

Cheers!

Agreed. I do it as an extra precaution... I could probably use a better one myself.

 

[Damian13]

I am curious to know if this got resolved. I was thinking of pairing the intertap flow control faucets with accuflex beer line but now am worried that I will run into the same issue. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[abrew2u]

Had same problem changed to 5/16 beverage line and everrytthing is great now,sounds like it's forcing co2 out of the beer when you pour

 

[jmcquesten]

5/16th??? Usually beer line is 3/16?

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

A couple problems.

1) The beer that sits in the line, the CO2 comes out of solution (causing foam).

2) while working at a craft brewery, I learned that when pouring, let the tap run for a second before filling the glass.
This allows the depressurization beer in the line to flow out then allow in fresh cold.

 

[MagicMatt]

A couple problems.

1) The beer that sits in the line, the CO2 comes out of solution (causing foam).

2) while working at a craft brewery, I learned that when pouring, let the tap run for a second before filling the glass.
This allows the depressurization beer in the line to flow out then allow in fresh cold.

The beer in the line should not be coming out of solution. If it is, there is a problem (likely temperature).

If the beer is fully equalibriated with the headspace and serving pressure, the beer should maintain its carbonation under pressure. The beer in the line is (should be) at the same temp and pressure as the beer in the keg.

If either of those variables change in the line, that is indicative of a problem. Sounds like you've got a problem and were wasting beer.