Help convert hop schedule to include First Wort Hopping please?

[plankbr]

10 Gallon batch:

HOPS:
1 oz - Nugget, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.3, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 21.36
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 19.92
2 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 20.24
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 0 min
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

I've never used a FWH technique but wold like to try tomorrow.

 

[reefriot]

Just use your nugget for first wort hops.
it won't change the IBUs that much

 

[plankbr]

Do I not use the 60 minute nugget addition then?

 

[goodyx7]

No put your 60 as FWH then continue with the rest of your schedule

 

[Brewcycle69]

Remember while the IBUs won't change that much the bittering profile is going to change quite a bit; its a little different to think about but a FWH IBU is much smoother than a boil addition IBU. This is a good place to start but know it may take a few brews to get the right balance of FWH bitter to boil bitter. You'll get better at that balance the more you brew but its a hard one to get right on the first try; all to say you may want to go less than a 10 gallon batch. I use FWH on several of my Ales and Pale Ales, I think you'll enjoy getting it dialed in.

Cheers.

 

[plankbr]

Should I decrease the FWH amount by 10% to achieve a closer balance?

 

[Gameface]

Should I decrease the FWH amount by 10% to achieve a closer balance?

No. If anything you may want a bit more. This is really a taste it and go from there type thing. Sorry to be vague, but FWHs are a tricky subject.

I have moved almost all of my bittering/60min additions to FWHs and am very happy with the results. However, using beersmith, I typically shoot for the high end of the IBU range for whatever style I'm making and feel that even then I'm not making particularly bitter beer. So... give it a shot and see what you get and adjust from there.

I know that's not what you want to hear.

 

[plankbr]

I think I get it .. Thanks for the responses.

 

[jjw5015]

What I've gathered from this forum is that FWH imparts a similar IBU as a 20 min addition, but with much more flavor/aroma.

 

[mrboz]

The idea of fwh is that it helps increase the isomerization of subsequent hops additions and results in better overall hops utilization. In general, what you get is a smoother hop bitterness and a more apparent aroma complex. Suggestions I've read about this from the various homebrew gods (Palmer, Smith, etc) is that its best to take a portion of your flavor and aroma hops (e.g. your noble and lo-alpha) and use that for first wort. Using your bittering hops will result in a much stronger bittering that might overwhelm the rest of your hop complex.

In your example, you are using pretty high alpha throughout, but your boil times will produce different results in how that alpha comes through in the finished product ... my guess is that the description will be "hoppy" or "bitter" and that your balance is definitely going to be skewed towards IBUs. If I were to use first wort hops with this schedule, I would take 1/2 oz of the 15-min Citra and Mosaic and use that. I would also split the 60-minute addition of Chinook to be 1/2 oz at 45 min and 1/2 Oz at 30 min. This would give you a complex that has a good bittering backbone, but that is more continuous and tilted towards flavor and aroma.

These recommendations are really nothing more than opinion built upon some research and my own experience ... It's a matter of experimenting with your recipes to get to what you want. I know that since I've started going more towards late additions (bursting about 1/2 of my hop complex over the last 10-minutes ... an also using lower alpha and noble at this stage) I've noticed more nuance and character in my hops, rather than just bitter. The perception is that the profile is more hoppy, even though by IBUs are lower according to BeerSmith.

 

[Yooper]

What I've gathered from this forum is that FWH imparts a similar IBU as a 20 min addition, but with much more flavor/aroma.

That's not been my experience. Generally, FWH gives about 10% more IBUs than a traditional 60 minute addition, but it's much smoother in bittering.

 

[plankbr]

Thanks all! I subbed the 60 min. addition of my bittering with the FWH and even bumped it up to 1.25 oz. Hopefully it's a super smooth beer.

 

[Denny]

I always use a 60 min. addition when I FWH. I don't find FWH in any way to be a sub for that addition. I think of it as for flavor, like a 20 min. addition. I caluclate the bitterness from FWH the same as a 20 min. addition, then I add enough more hops at 60 to get to the total IBU I'm going for. Sure, FWH calculates as more IBU than a 60 min, addition, but I generally brew beer to drink, not measure! I go for what it tastes like.

 

[Yooper]

I always use a 60 min. addition when I FWH. I don't find FWH in any way to be a sub for that addition. I think of it as for flavor, like a 20 min. addition. I caluclate the bitterness from FWH the same as a 20 min. addition, then I add enough more hops at 60 to get to the total IBU I'm going for. Sure, FWH calculates as more IBU than a 60 min, addition, but I generally brew beer to drink, not measure! I go for what it tastes like.

I guess I knew that Denny felt this way (but forgot)- and I totally respect his experience and opinions.

That goes to show you that everyone perceives things differently, including how much bitterness is "enough". Your taste buds (and those of your friends) are the only true judge of what is correct.

When I used both a 60 minute and a FWH addition, the beer wasn't "right" to me. More firmly bitter, but without the aroma and flavor I wanted. Perhaps it's the type of hops, but I've done it with high cohumulone hops like chinook, as well as with lower cohumulone hops like amarillo, and I still like the FWH instead of the bittering hops, not in addition to.

I still occasionally play with things like mash hopping, when I have homegrown or otherwise cheap hops, but haven't found that mash hopping gives as much hops flavor and aroma as I'd like, so I often do FWH and whirlpool additions in my hoppy beers. Maybe that's the difference in why I'm happy with the hops schedule I use of FWH/15/5/whirlpool/dryhop or something like that. I dunno.

 

[Denny]

Yooper, my "normal" hop schedule is FWH, 60, and flameout.

Fortunately, there is a book coming out in Nov. that outlines experiments for deciding how YOU want to use FWH.

 

[AnOldUR]

Been trying to figure this out for the past few years. There’s so much information out there that you really have to try all the combinations and see what works for you. I wasn't getting the level or type of bitterness I wanted from just FWHing. There’s a compromise somewhere in between. Some smooth bitterness and some of the bite that only a 60 minute addition offers. The all late hop craze was even worse. For me, a lot of the new hop fads produced beers that were great at around week two or three, but dropped off fast. By four weeks from the brew day, flavor and aroma was fading fast. And with no real bitterness, they lost all their appeal. At this point I'm very close to what Denny says, although I still add an ounce or so at 10 minutes. And you didn't mentioned it, but I’m assuming you're still dry hopping?

 

[Denny]

Been trying to figure this out for the past few years. There’s so much information out there that you really have to try all the combinations and see what works for you. I wasn't getting the level or type of bitterness I wanted from just FWHing. There’s a compromise somewhere in between. Some smooth bitterness and some of the bite that only a 60 minute addition offers. The all late hop craze was even worse. For me, a lot of the new hop fads produced beers that were great at around week two or three, but dropped off fast. By four weeks from the brew day, flavor and aroma was fading fast. And with no real bitterness, they lost all their appeal. At this point I'm very close to what Denny says, although I still add an ounce or so at 10 minutes. And you didn't mentioned it, but I’m assuming you're still dry hopping?

Yep, I still dry hop. In fact, I fond that to be so much more effective than a flameout addition that I skip the flameout a lot of times. There are exceptions, though. I recently brewed the Hop Stoopid recipe from "Craft Beer for the Homebrewer" and I was astounded at how much aroma I got from the flameout. Of course, it was 3 oz. of hops like Simcoe and Chinook! And I still dry hopped it!