Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[dbennett78]

I made an attempt this weekend:

11lb Marris otter
1.5lb Munich
1lb wheat
.5 lb carapils

Mash at 152
3ml hop Extract at FWH
4ml hop extract at 60 min

1oz Columbus and 1oz Centennial at 10min

1oz each of Columbus, Simcoe, Citra at flameout. Whirlpool through hops in hop spider for 15 min.

Pitched Conan and plan on fermenting at 62-64. I find that this yeast chews through fermentation very fast. Expect to dry hop it about 10 days from brew day in keg.

 

[paulster2626]

Man my Conan harvesting doesn't seem to be working. Crashing this starter to see if any yeast shows up on the bottom.

 

[powermd]

I made an attempt this weekend:

3ml hop Extract at FWH
4ml hop extract at 60 min

Which hop extract are you using? Hopshot?

 

[dbennett78]

Got it from yakimavalleyhops

 

[dbennett78]

Man my Conan harvesting doesn't seem to be working. Crashing this starter to see if any yeast shows up on the bottom.

Try adding the dregs from another can to the starter

 

[powermd]

Man my Conan harvesting doesn't seem to be working. Crashing this starter to see if any yeast shows up on the bottom.

You only started this yesterday, right?

I started mine from the dregs of a single can and it took almost exactly 2 days 20 hours until I saw definitive clumps of yeast. Prior to that I had some bubbles, but not much.

 

[powermd]

Got it from yakimavalleyhops

Have you used this extract before with good results?

How does it differ from bittering the usual way with pellets at FW?

 

[dbennett78]

Have you used this extract before with good results?

How does it differ from bittering the usual way with pellets at FW?

This is my first time. I would imagine its easier to get a more consistent bitterness using hop extract but I'm sure you could calculate using AA for different types and crops

The extract did smell amazing though and the sample I tasted out of my hydrometer was good so we will see

 

[theveganbrewer]

Man my Conan harvesting doesn't seem to be working. Crashing this starter to see if any yeast shows up on the bottom.

Most common problem at this stage is going to be temp. Get that thing up above 70 and you'll get some action.

 

[paulster2626]

It's been about 3 days. Dregs from 3 cans so should be good.

It is kinda chilly in my basement - moving it all upstairs where it's nice and warm to see what happens.

 

[theveganbrewer]

It's been about 3 days. Dregs from 3 cans so should be good.

It is kinda chilly in my basement - moving it all upstairs where it's nice and warm to see what happens.

I get a lot of messages and PMs on conan stalling out of the can, 72 degrees solves them all.

 

[t_met]

I'm a little late to this thread, and am slowly reading through it. I appologize if someone already added what I'm about to say.

I agree that it could be a multiple-stage dry hop, and would love it if someone could share more info on the technique beyond "Vinny does it" or "it works for me". For some reason, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this particular idea.

EDIT: Specifically, what's the benefit over a single-stage dry hop?

I've read (can't remember if it was Love of Hops or here or both) places like Firestone do two dry hop additions. One with about 1 Plato they give the first addition. There is still some biotransormations with the yeast and hop carbohidrate material. Various biotransformations between different aroma compounds (such as geraniol to linalool) can also be performed by the yeast during fermentation, causing changes in aroma compound concentrations.
There is also the advantage of reducing the oxygen since yeast is still active and will produce CO2 to off gas.

The 2nd hop addition just adds the same as most of us are experienced with.

The 2 additions give more complexity than just one.


Crap, why paraphrase. Here's the quote in a different thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/staggered-dry-hop-399262/#post5027091

 

[t_met]

Not sure if this is value add or not. Their well maybe different, maybe running off of municpal, or treating their water. But I live about 25 miles from Waterbury. Perhaps someone living in that area can give better values, but this is my water profile. I'm on a well. Results from WardLabs sent Feb2013

pH 8.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 161
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.27
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.1 / 3.1

Below is ppm
Sodium, Na 10
Potassium, K <1
Calcium, Ca 36
Magnesium, Mg 10
Total Hardness, CaCO3 132
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.3(SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 1
Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 156
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 137
Fluoride, F 0.19
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

It's been about 3 days. Dregs from 3 cans so should be good.

It is kinda chilly in my basement - moving it all upstairs where it's nice and warm to see what happens.

It'll take longer than three days to get a good layer, just keep it warm and give it time. Three cans'll be plenty, it just might take a week or so to show a good layer of yeast. Also, remember that that first step won't produce a ton, just a little. The second and subsequent steps will really begin to show a good cake.

 

[paulster2626]

Well, guess what? Thing is going off! It's a stir-plate frenzy this morning, and Conan is going ape****.
I'm leaving on a road trip to Philly tomorrow, and I want to brew with this in Monday. Tonight I plan to crash whatever's there, and do one big step up to 1.5L.
Don't care what happens, as long as beer ferments. We shall see...

 

[FATC1TY]

Well, guess what? Thing is going off! It's a stir-plate frenzy this morning, and Conan is going ape****.
I'm leaving on a road trip to Philly tomorrow, and I want to brew with this in Monday. Tonight I plan to crash whatever's there, and do one big step up to 1.5L.
Don't care what happens, as long as beer ferments. We shall see...

Be prepared to not see much settle out if you are crashing for a short period.

It took me a good 2-3 days to get half the 2L flask to settle somewhat where I wasn't feeling that I was drain pouring good yeast.

 

[paulster2626]

I'll crash it overnight, and will add 1.5L of fresh wort tomorrow morning and leave it going all weekend. WHen I get back sunday evening I will crash again and should be good to go for Monday.

That's the plan, anyway. Now to come up with a recipe... here's one:

Conan IPA #1
Style: American IPA OG: 1.052
Type: All Grain FG: 1.010
Rating: 0.0 ABV: 5.50 %
Calories: 168 IBU's: 59.43
Efficiency: 72 % Boil Size: 23.44 L
Color: 4.2 SRM Batch Size: 20.82 L
Preboil OG: 1.050 Boil Time: 60 minutes

Fermentation Steps
Name Days / Temp
Primary 25 days @ 64.0°F
Dry Hop 6 days @ 68.0°F
Bottle/Keg 21 days @ 72.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
10.00 lbs 88.89 % Pearl Malt 60 mins 1.038
1.00 lbs 8.89 % Pale Malt, Maris Otter 60 mins 1.038
4.00 ozs 2.22 % Carafoam 60 mins 1.033

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
0.75 ozs 33.12 Columbus (Tomahawk) 60 mins 14.00
1.25 ozs 20.02 Columbus (Tomahawk) 10 mins 14.00
1.00 ozs 6.29 Cascade 10 mins 5.50
0.50 ozs 0.00 Columbus (Tomahawk) 0 mins 14.00
0.50 ozs 0.00 Cascade 0 mins 5.50

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
1.00 pkg Conan


...should be tasty, at the very least. Based on the final product I'll kick out a Heady clone attempt using slurry from this batch.

 

[terrapinj]

If your flak will fit it just add the worth without crashing. You'll probably dump a good bit of yeast if you just crash overnight ime

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Agreed, IME this yeast needs several days cold to drop all the way out.

 

[paulster2626]

If your flak will fit it just add the worth without crashing. You'll probably dump a good bit of yeast if you just crash overnight ime

Will do. I'll add a nugget of Columbus to the starter and will just pitch the whole thing.

 

[HawksBrewer]

Agreed, IME this yeast needs several days cold to drop all the way out.

I agree with this 100% IME. I think the reason conan attenuates so well is because it stays in suspension so long. Hence, an overnight cold crash in the fridge is insufficient to drop the yeast and allow for a proper decanting.

If your flak will fit it just add the worth without crashing. You'll probably dump a good bit of yeast if you just crash overnight ime

This is what I did and it worked like a champ. I had activity from 4 oz of heady in around a day with a 16oz 1.020 starter wort and then added an additional 1L of 1.020 wort directly to the existing starter. This got me a decent amount of healthy yeast before transferring to a proper 1.040 1.5L wort, THAT starter went gangbusters on the stir plate.

 

[whitehause]

That's what I'm doing. I made a 1L starter, now i'm just letting it crash for about a week. I'll decant and do another 1L a couple days before I brew and just dump all but a little that I'll save for the next starter.

 

[paulster2626]

Seems to be crashing rather well. Been in the fridge for about 6 hours and there is already a distinct layer at the bottom. Everything should work out nicely over the weekend. I'm so excited!

 

[PseudoChef]

The Conan I have crashes very well (same Conan that doesn't produce a lot of krausen on the stir plate).

Still throws tons of fruit, but definitely gives rise to the notion that the yeast changes pretty dramatically depending on the generation.

 

[othellomcbane]

Okay, survey time: how many of you guys aerate with pure oxygen versus just shaking the bucket or pouring back and forth?

And of those of you who just do the "shake and pour" method, do any of you bottle? Have you seen higher than anticipated carbonation with Conan in the bottle?

I'm working on a theory that Conan may require a bit more initial oxygen (aeration) than other yeast strains. It's the only variable so far as I can figure compared to my other recent non-Conan batches. (Never had, and still don't have, any trouble with the shake and pour method on all my non-Conan batches).

More about it on my blog post about the black IPA I just brewed with Conan: http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/03/tasting-notes-black-ipa-with-black.html. Which, despite slightly high carbonation, I think is rather tasty and unique. I'm going to brew with Conan again this weekend and aerate with a fancy new pure O2 wand, so I'll report back once I can reach any solid conclussions.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Okay, survey time: how many of you guys aerate with pure oxygen versus just shaking the bucket or pouring back and forth?

And of those of you who just do the "shake and pour" method, do any of you bottle? Have you seen higher than anticipated carbonation with Conan in the bottle?

I'm working on a theory that Conan may require a bit more initial oxygen (aeration) than other yeast strains. It's the only variable so far as I can figure compared to my other recent non-Conan batches. (Never had, and still don't have, any trouble with the shake and pour method on all my non-Conan batches).

More about it on my blog post about the black IPA I just brewed with Conan: http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/03/tasting-notes-black-ipa-with-black.html. Which, despite slightly high carbonation, I think is rather tasty and unique. I'm going to brew with Conan again this weekend and aerate with a fancy new pure O2 wand, so I'll report back once I can reach any solid conclussions.

I give it 90 seconds on the setting that is just enough to see o2 coming out, but not strong enough to bring bubbles to the surface. I did so much because I was seeing Conan just rip through a fermentation. It always finished in 3 days. I figured it'd need a lot of 02 to get the job done.

I've finished my write up on Conan and it's generations. Check it out, leave some feedback with your experiences so we can build our information base on this yeast. http://www.signpostbrewing.com/conan-yeast-attenuation/

 

[othellomcbane]

I give it 90 seconds on the setting that is just enough to see o2 coming out, but not strong enough to bring bubbles to the surface. I did so much because I was seeing Conan just rip through a fermentation. It always finished in 3 days. I figured it'd need a lot of 02 to get the job done.

Cool, good to know. While I was never having trouble with most strains, I knew something would force me to bump up to an aeration wand eventually.

Edit: Have you also noticed reduced attenuation from batch to batch, as Conan goes through generations?

 

[PseudoChef]

I use pure O2 - generally a minute unless higher gravity. Brewing two (Blonde and IPA) Conan batches tomorrow. I'll report back with what I get.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Have you also noticed reduced attenuation from batch to batch, as Conan goes through generations?

Granted, I'm no mycologist, but I'm confused about why it would change attenuation so quickly. Does the cumulative wear of high-ABV DIPA after DIPA damage their health? Alcohol's toxicity is due to its ability to dissolve lipids in cell membranes. Yeast need oxygen (or olive oil) to manufacture those same lipids, so I could see where the oxygen theory makes sense. Would using Conan in low-ABV beers avoid this problem? Or is Conan uniquely susceptible to membrane weakness?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Cool, good to know. While I was never having trouble with most strains, I knew something would force me to bump up to an aeration wand eventually.

Edit: Have you also noticed reduced attenuation from batch to batch, as Conan goes through generations?

Not sure if you saw it, but I did a write up on my attenuation observations and how they relate to the real Heady Topper.

http://www.signpostbrewing.com/conan-yeast-attenuation/

 

[benney]

When I make a starter with conan, I use 1/4 lb DME per quart and every time I dump a quart in the 5000 mil flask I hit it with oxyigen for 30 seconds at .5 L per minuite. I have the stir plate giong steady the whole time for 2 days. I add a quart of wart morning and night. By brew day I have a 1 gallon starter teaming with yeast. The house temperature is 65.
Thats the temperature I ferment at and the Conan finishes in about 3 days were when it is real slow, I will add a 1 or 2 pounds of sugar to get the ABV up to 10% or more and cut back on the final gravity. Once this sugar is used up the conan has reached its limits of being able to produce any more alcohol. I have had some trouble with acetobactor in 2 of thies starters . I havent yet done much measureing of the final gravity or ABV yet. The starting gravity does not seem to matter, the brews I am making have to be over .200 starting gravity and the conan just tears it up.

 

[whitehause]

When I make a starter with conan, I use 1/4 lb DME per quart and every time I dump a quart in the 5000 mil flask I hit it with oxyigen for 30 seconds at .5 L per minuite. I have the stir plate giong steady the whole time for 2 days. I add a quart of wart morning and night. By brew day I have a 1 gallon starter teaming with yeast. The house temperature is 65.
Thats the temperature I ferment at and the Conan finishes in about 3 days were when it is real slow, I will add a 1 or 2 pounds of sugar to get the ABV up to 10% or more and cut back on the final gravity. Once this sugar is used up the conan has reached its limits of being able to produce any more alcohol. I have had some trouble with acetobactor in 2 of thies starters . I havent yet done much measureing of the final gravity or ABV yet. The starting gravity does not seem to matter, the brews I am making have to be over .200 starting gravity and the conan just tears it up.

? ummmm....ok.

 

[InityBrew]

When I make a starter with conan, I use 1/4 lb DME per quart and every time I dump a quart in the 5000 mil flask I hit it with oxyigen for 30 seconds at .5 L per minuite. I have the stir plate giong steady the whole time for 2 days. I add a quart of wart morning and night. By brew day I have a 1 gallon starter teaming with yeast. The house temperature is 65.
Thats the temperature I ferment at and the Conan finishes in about 3 days were when it is real slow, I will add a 1 or 2 pounds of sugar to get the ABV up to 10% or more and cut back on the final gravity. Once this sugar is used up the conan has reached its limits of being able to produce any more alcohol. I have had some trouble with acetobactor in 2 of thies starters . I havent yet done much measureing of the final gravity or ABV yet. The starting gravity does not seem to matter, the brews I am making have to be over .200 starting gravity and the conan just tears it up.

?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Combining my yeast numbers and the idea from Coopertown about ABV legality 7.7%-8.0%-8.3% all being legal labeling wise, it makes the most sense to me that the original Heady Topper is 1.073 OG. That would range from 86.3% attenuation in generation 1 to 80.8% in generation 16+ which seems pretty close to what I see in Conan at home.

 

[RonD]

I am planning on giving a Heady Topper clone a try. I have my Conan ready to go and I just wanted to check in to see if anyone has had any epiphanies since the Clone #5 that theveganbrewer posted. Thanks for all the good work everyone is doing on this one. I am happy to tweak my recipes to contribute to the greater good of getting this clone right.

 

[FATC1TY]

When I make a starter with conan, I use 1/4 lb DME per quart and every time I dump a quart in the 5000 mil flask I hit it with oxyigen for 30 seconds at .5 L per minuite. I have the stir plate giong steady the whole time for 2 days. I add a quart of wart morning and night. By brew day I have a 1 gallon starter teaming with yeast. The house temperature is 65.
Thats the temperature I ferment at and the Conan finishes in about 3 days were when it is real slow, I will add a 1 or 2 pounds of sugar to get the ABV up to 10% or more and cut back on the final gravity. Once this sugar is used up the conan has reached its limits of being able to produce any more alcohol. I have had some trouble with acetobactor in 2 of thies starters . I havent yet done much measureing of the final gravity or ABV yet. The starting gravity does not seem to matter, the brews I am making have to be over .200 starting gravity and the conan just tears it up.

I'd advise you to not drink and internet.

 

[FATC1TY]

Combining my yeast numbers and the idea from Coopertown about ABV legality 7.7%-8.0%-8.3% all being legal labeling wise, it makes the most sense to me that the original Heady Topper is 1.073 OG. That would range from 86.3% attenuation in generation 1 to 80.8% in generation 16+ which seems pretty close to what I see in Conan at home.

Agreed.

If you look at what people are getting attenuation wise with Conan at home, it's all in the 80% mark.

With no idea what generation you have, one would have to agree that we are all using stepped up colonies from cans, and even more batches to split and share around.

 

[namyarb3]

I am planning on giving a Heady Topper clone a try. I have my Conan ready to go and I just wanted to check in to see if anyone has had any epiphanies since the Clone #5 that theveganbrewer posted. Thanks for all the good work everyone is doing on this one. I am happy to tweak my recipes to contribute to the greater good of getting this clone right.

I'm right with you on this. I'm brewing on Sunday, Saturday hangover permitting, and would like to get close.

 

[droder1]

Jumping back to the hop varietals.
Confirmed: Columbus (CTZ), Simcoe, Amarillo. All US hops.
Per website and sign at brewery, 6 varietals in HT.

HT, first brewed in 2003.
Assumption: 6 hop varietals have not changed, thus, all hops had to be commercially available in 2003.

Assumption not utilized: that the hop varietals used in HT all appear on the sign at the Alchemist. I?m not so sure we can assume this, so I won?t eliminate any just because they aren?t on the sign (ie. they brewed a beer in the past with Horizon but its not on the sign, and its been quoted in this thread he doesn?t like Citra, but its on the sign).

Eliminate:
Apollo (released 2006) x
Bravo (released 2006) x
Citra (released 2007, John not liking it) x

Possible:
Ahtanum
Chinook
Cascade
Centennial
Cluster
Crystal
Fuggle (US)
Glacier
Horizon
Millenium
Nugget
Palisade (unsure when this was released)
Santiam
Summit (unsure when released)
Warrior
Williamette

Possible, but seemingly unlikely:
Brewer?s Gold (US), Chelan, Galena, Mt Hood, Newport, some other much less common varietals.

I also eliminated some very new hops without listing (ie. El Dorado)

I think I got all the major varietals, not certain.

So unfortunately, this is a long list? The most likely, based on the varietals properties (aroma/flavor, as these are all late adds), IMO, would be:
Ahtanum, Chinook, Cascade, Centennial, Crystal, Glacier, Nugget, Williamette.

Second options: Summit (although can get oniony), Warrior (mild dry hop), Fuggle and Horizon, for reasons outlined in the next paragraph.

Other thoughts, Vermont Pub Blackwatch IPA, which Kimmich brewed before starting the Alchemist, used both Horizon and Fuggle, including dry hopping with Fuggle. Other, now retired, Alchemist beers, according to their website, include a beer dry hopped with Warrior/Simcoe, a single hop Nugget IPA, a single hopped Warrior APA, and a mild ale hopped with Horizon. So we know he is quite familiar and uses these hops in other beers.

X ? Source: http://www.usahops.org/userfiles/fi...ety Manual - English (updated March 2011).pdf

Any discerning hop noses have thoughts? Anyone from Vermont want to bribe their delivery driver to getting a copy of their hop delivery packing list?

 

[othellomcbane]

Not sure if you saw it, but I did a write up on my attenuation observations and how they relate to the real Heady Topper.

http://www.signpostbrewing.com/conan-yeast-attenuation/

I hadn't seen that yet, thanks. You're doing a great job of documenting everything. If it helps, the Conan I used for my black IPA was harvested from Heady Topper canned on November 26th, 2012. I think the attenuation was around 78% percent or something, but I'm wondering if a bit of that was because I didn't aerate enough.

How did your CDA with Conan turn out? You doing a write-up on it for your blog?