Having problems with harsh bitterness in a lot of my beers

[Sleepy_D]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been having a recurring issue with what I can best describe as a harsh bitterness in most of my beers. Sometimes it is in the background and other times it is upfront and overpowering. I just tapped my New Zealand Pilsner last night and it is overwhelmingly harshly bitter after 2 weeks in the keg. What can cause this? At first I thought I wasn’t cooling my wort down fast enough and was extracting too much bitterness from my hops but I have remedied that issue. Then I thought it might be lack of control on my water but now I am starting with RO and adding salts to remove water as a variable.

This is the recipe I used for the New Zealand Pilsner:


4.5lbs Pilsner
4.5lbs 2-row
0.5lbs white wheat
0.5 lbs carapils

Mash at 150 for 60 min

16 g (0.55 oz) motueka at 60
8 g (0.3 oz) Nelson sauvin at 10
8 g (0.3 oz) motueka at 10
15 g (0.55 oz) Nelson sauvin at 5
15 g (0.55 oz) motueka at 5
Hop stand at 160 for 20 min: 33 g (1.15 oz) Nelson sauvin and 28 g (1 oz) motueka

Omega Lutra yeast fermented at mid-upper 70s for 1 week

Water profile (I started with 8 gallons adjusted to about this): Ca 50, Mg 6, Na 20, SO4 60, Cl 60, HCO3 50

OG of 1.050
FG of 1.010
ABV of 5.3
37.75 IBUs (calculator said about 16-17 from the bittering 60 min addition and 20 from all of the late additions)

 

[Dland]

Four things I can think of might be problem w bitterness, water, tannens, infection & hops. You seem to have the water covered, if you are mashing and sparging "normally", you should not have tannens. I had an infection in beer once that made them undrinkable, but would have described more as acid then bitter, but was harsh to be sure.

Your hop schedule does not seem unreasonable, but I'd suspect that,.. especially the hop stand, just a guess. Good news is that hop harshness does tend to mellow out over time, and two weeks in keg is not long for a Pilsner.

For what it's worth my lager hop stands are usually .5-1 oz at 150-160F for 10-15 min, and that is for a 10 gallon batch.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Ok I’ll let it ride and see if it mellows out.

I batch sparge and usually drain out my first runnings and try to add add water shooting for 170 for 10 minutes with the grains but typically undershoot it and end up at 165 or so and then drain that out.

I don’t think it’s infection, it doesn’t really have any funk to it, just this bitterness

One thought I had is that I brew at sea level and I guess my boiling water is slightly higher temp than people at higher elevations. I highly doubt this is part of the issue but I figured I’d throw it out there.

 

[Dland]

Sparge sounds OK. My guess is sea level not a factor, I'm pretty much at sea level too.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Sparge sounds OK. My guess is sea level not a factor, I'm pretty much at sea level too.

yea I was reaching with that one haha

 

[hottpeper13]

You used RO water and added HCO3 ...WTF. The pH had to be above 5.6,most likely causing the harshness. Even with salts to bring my RO water to between 70-100 ppm Ca, I need to use ~4 oz of acidulated malt to get in the 5.2-5.4 range,which is where I like to be.

 

[Sleepy_D]

You used RO water and added HCO3 ...WTF. The pH had to be above 5.6,most likely causing the harshness. Even with salts to bring my RO water to between 70-100 ppm Ca, I need to use ~4 oz of acidulated malt to get in the 5.2-5.4 range,which is where I like to be.

welp maybe that’s it this was my first time trying to adjust water with brewing salts. I still had good conversion in the mash, if my ph was off enough to cause the harshness would it also be off enough to prevent good conversion?

I suppose I should have made it clear in my initial post that I am still a beginner (although I guess making rookie mistakes is giving that away)

 

[madscientist451]

The first thing I'd mess with is your water profile adjustments.
I'd also scale back to 2.5 gallon batches while you're experimenting to see what works for you.
Your hop additions don't look out of line, but if its too bitter, cut back the late boil additions.
Also, do you chill right after flameout, or wait?
Here's a suggested target profile from the Brewer's friend page:



Light colored and hoppy

Ca2+	Mg2+	Na+	Cl-	SO42-	HCO3-
Ion Profile in ppm
75	5	10	50	150	0

Source:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-water-target-profiles/

 

[hottpeper13]

I think the lack of conversion happen with a lower pH,but I'd have to look that up. I do know that a higher pH gives better hop utilization and above 5.6 it extracts the harshness. My brewing liquor for a Pilsner is RO with .5g CaCl2, .5g CaSO4, .25g NaCl, and .25g MgSO4 per gal in mash and I don't treat the sparge liquor,but add the .5g per gal of sparge liquor of CaCl2 and CaSO4 to the boil kettle. From 1.044- 1.050 grain bills I use 4-6 oz of acidulated malt and like my fizzy yellow beers to have a mash pH below 5.3

 

[GoeHaarden]

Are you accounting for AA% of the hops you have in hand, and not the default calculator numbers?

 

[Yooper]

Remember to sparge with 100% RO water (NO alkalinity in sparge water!) and to not add any bicarbonate/alkalinity to mash water unless needed to bring the mash pH up to 5.3 or so. There is never a target for bicarbonate, only what is absolutely needed.
Harshness usually comes from a too-high mash pH, so when you adjust your water, make sure the mash pH is low enough. You probably needed acid, not alkalinity, to hit a target of 5.3.

 

[Sleepy_D]

My brewing liquor for a Pilsner is RO with .5g CaCl2, .5g CaSO4, .25g NaCl, and .25g MgSO4 per gal in mash and I don't treat the sparge liquor,but add the .5g per gal of sparge liquor of CaCl2 and CaSO4 to the boil kettle. From 1.044- 1.050 grain bills I use 4-6 oz of acidulated malt and like my fizzy yellow beers to have a mash pH below 5.3

The first thing I'd mess with is your water profile adjustments.
I'd also scale back to 2.5 gallon batches while you're experimenting to see what works for you.
Your hop additions don't look out of line, but if its too bitter, cut back the late boil additions.
Also, do you chill right after flameout, or wait?
Here's a suggested target profile from the Brewer's friend page:



Light colored and hoppy

Ca2+	Mg2+	Na+	Cl-	SO42-	HCO3-
Ion Profile in ppm
75	5	10	50	150	0

Source:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-water-target-profiles/

So my understanding is that a New Zealand Pilsner is not supposed to be as clean and crisp as a normal one. It’s more like a hoppy tropical Kölsch than a German Pilsner. I got the water profile I used from the “mean brews” video on the style where he took the average water profile of several award winning recipes in this style

 

[Sleepy_D]

I think the lack of conversion happen with a lower pH,but I'd have to look that up. I do know that a higher pH gives better hop utilization and above 5.6 it extracts the harshness. My brewing liquor for a Pilsner is RO with .5g CaCl2, .5g CaSO4, .25g NaCl, and .25g MgSO4 per gal in mash and I don't treat the sparge liquor,but add the .5g per gal of sparge liquor of CaCl2 and CaSO4 to the boil kettle. From 1.044- 1.050 grain bills I use 4-6 oz of acidulated malt and like my fizzy yellow beers to have a mash pH below 5.3

Maybe it is all a pH issue, not going to lie the ph probe is on my brewing wish list that I haven’t gotten yet

 

[Yooper]

Maybe it is all a pH issue, not going to lie the ph probe is on my brewing wish list that I haven’t gotten yet

Since you don't have a pH meter yet, don't use any chalk at all. And only use baking soda if you are making a stout or a dark porter. There are free water calculators out there (I use Brewer's Friend) that can help estimate the mash pH.
Adding alkalinity to sparge water can leach tannins due to the high pH so definitely stop sparging with anything added to your water.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Remember to sparge with 100% RO water (NO alkalinity in sparge water!) and to not add any bicarbonate/alkalinity to mash water unless needed to bring the mash pH up to 5.3 or so. There is never a target for bicarbonate, only what is absolutely needed.
Harshness usually comes from a too-high mash pH, so when you adjust your water, make sure the mash pH is low enough. You probably needed acid, not alkalinity, to hit a target of 5.3.

Ok I did not know that. I pulled the water profile from the “mean brews” video on the style and assumed it needed to be there. I adjusted all the water I was going to use to the profile I listed, not just the water for the mash so I sparged with that as well. If you need to have pure RO for the sparge (or at least no alkalinity) how do the brew in a bag folks handle water chemistry? Do they add salts for the mash and then more after sparging? I assumed since people successfully do brew in a bag and have all the water in there at once that I should/could treat all the water together

 

[Sleepy_D]

Are you accounting for AA% of the hops you have in hand, and not the default calculator numbers?

The packages I got were the same as the default numbers but maybe they weren’t accurate

 

[Yooper]

Ok I did not know that. I pulled the water profile from the “mean brews” video on the style and assumed it needed to be there. I adjusted all the water I was going to use to the profile I listed, not just the water for the mash so I sparged with that as well. If you need to have pure RO for the sparge (or at least no alkalinity) how do the brew in a bag folks handle water chemistry? Do they add salts for the mash and then more after sparging? I assumed since people successfully do brew in a bag and have all the water in there at once that I should/could treat all the water together

No- they will add the salts to the mash usually, but if they want more (and it would push the mash pH too low), it goes into the kettle. However, it would be exceedingly rare to have a too-low mash pH in BIAB as usually the problem is a too-high mash pH due to all of the water in the mash.
You can treat all of the water at once- IF you're not adding any alkalinity. You generally need to add acid if not using RO water to sparge.

 

[Yooper]

The issue here is adding alkalinity- in this case in the form of chalk. If you don't use chalk or lime or baking soda in the sparge water, that will help. And in the case of the above recipe, you would ideally use 0 of any of those in the mash or sparge water.

 

[Yooper]

Here's a suggested target profile from the Brewer's friend page:


Light colored and hoppy

Ca2+	Mg2+	Na+	Cl-	SO42-	HCO3-
Ion Profile in ppm
75	5	10	50	150	0

Source:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-water-target-profiles/

I don't remember this for sure, but I think that is my water profile for light hoppy beers without too much sulfate.

 

[madscientist451]

I thought he was shooting for a light hoppy beer? But its just an example of what's on that page.
BTW I'm a super lazy brewer, don't have a RO system and unless I'm making a beer that has a large $ amount of hops in it, I don't make water adjustments, I just use my tap water and the beers are good enough for me. When I make lagers, I usually add 50% distilled.
I do like to make adjustments for NEIPAs and other hoppy brews. Someday maybe I'll get more serious about it for all my beers.....

 

[Sleepy_D]

So @Yooper the varying degrees of harsh bitterness I get in many of my beers could be from me not adjusting my mash ph low enough? I really didn’t think it would have that perceptible of an impact on flavor I thought it was mostly about mash efficiency and that hasn’t been an issue for me so I didn’t worry about ph

 

[Sleepy_D]

I thought he was shooting for a light hoppy beer? But its just an example of what's on that page.
BTW I'm a super lazy brewer, don't have a RO system and unless I'm making a beer that has a large $ amount of hops in it, I don't make water adjustments, I just use my tap water and the beers are good enough for me. When I make lagers, I usually add 50% distilled.
I do like to make adjustments for NEIPAs and other hoppy brews. Someday maybe I'll get more serious about it for all my beers.....

I live in Florida and don’t have the best water. I tried the 50/50 approach you do but I wanted to try controlling the water for this one. Prob should have not haha

 

[marc1]

I live in Florida and don’t have the best water. I tried the 50/50 approach you do but I wanted to try controlling the water for this one. Prob should have not haha

All RO is a great way to go, it takes a variable out of the equation, just make good additions to it and you'll be doing great!

 

[Sleepy_D]

All RO is a great way to go, it takes a variable out of the equation, just make good additions to it and you'll be doing great!

I’m going to try to master it. I have a question that came up from another post I made. When I see a water profile on a recipe or in a book is that the concentration of the brewing water to begin with or the desired concentration after the boil? I thought many of those were attempting to mimic the water from a specific location and would therefore be used to adjust the initial brewing water. Someone else told me those concentrations should be the value after the boil so all my actual numbers are quite a bit higher than I think.

 

[Dland]

I guess I'm one of the lucky few who's well water happens to be good for the styles I brew, hence my relitive ignorance on the subject of water adjustments.

 

[marc1]

I’m going to try to master it. I have a question that came up from another post I made. When I see a water profile on a recipe or in a book is that the concentration of the brewing water to begin with or the desired concentration after the boil? I thought many of those were attempting to mimic the water from a specific location and would therefore be used to adjust the initial brewing water. Someone else told me those concentrations should be the value after the boil so all my actual numbers are quite a bit higher than I think.

I use them as a brewing water guide. Ultimately, it's a place to start that you can modify over many batches to see what your preferences are.

 

[Oldskewl]

I was fighting a similar battle on my NEIPAs. I would add Gypsum, CaCl and NaCl to my RO water to get the desired water profile. And used acidulated malt to adjust PH. According to my PH meter the numbers were in the range I wanted(5.2-5.4). I finally swithched from my in home RO to store bought distilled water. Everything is good in the world again. Not sure what the problem was. I change my filters regularly and do TDS measurements about every 3 months on my RO system. But the water is what made the difference. Just a suggestion.

 

[Yooper]

So @Yooper the varying degrees of harsh bitterness I get in many of my beers could be from me not adjusting my mash ph low enough? I really didn’t think it would have that perceptible of an impact on flavor I thought it was mostly about mash efficiency and that hasn’t been an issue for me so I didn’t worry about ph

In short, yes. When I made a kolsch for the first time, I used my (great tasting) tap water. The beer was very good, very clear- but had a very harsh aftertaste. I later realized why- the high mash pH from using my high bicarbonate water. Now I make a kolsch with all RO water and a small addition of calcium chloride, and tiny bit of gypsum, and add a little lactic acid, and it's just like sitting in Cologne enjoying a beer!

I live in Florida and don’t have the best water. I tried the 50/50 approach you do but I wanted to try controlling the water for this one. Prob should have not haha

I think you're on the right track. Just remember that often with water chemistry, less is more, and we can always give some advice as you learn more.

I’m going to try to master it. I have a question that came up from another post I made. When I see a water profile on a recipe or in a book is that the concentration of the brewing water to begin with or the desired concentration after the boil? I thought many of those were attempting to mimic the water from a specific location and would therefore be used to adjust the initial brewing water. Someone else told me those concentrations should be the value after the boil so all my actual numbers are quite a bit higher than I think.

First, remember that city water profiles are pretty useless- for example, sure Dublins water has XXX, but Guiness doesn't use that water! So take all profiles with a grain of salt (pun intended!). Most of the water calculators out there that I know of give you the water you're using to brew. The reason is complex- malt has plenty of magnesium for example, and so the Mg level of a finished beer is much much higher than your beginning water.

 

[Yooper]

Maybe this could be helpful to learn a bit about why we're telling you not to use chalk, etc: Brewing Water for Beginners - Brewer's Friend

 

[gello22]

While I agree that you had a high ph between the salt additions to ro water combined 8 gallons for a light and small grain bill. I also wonder how you handle the hops post boil.

Do you filter out the hops before fermenting?
I used to get a lot of hop burn when everything made it into the fermenter. Your hop bill is light but if it all sat in the fermenter long enough to ferment a pilsner you could be getting bitterness from the plant matter sitting in the beer too long in addition to the tannins from high ph. This is sometimes described as hop burn in the back of the throat.

 

[Sleepy_D]

While I agree that you had a high ph between the salt additions to ro water combined 8 gallons for a light and small grain bill. I also wonder how you handle the hops post boil.

Do you filter out the hops before fermenting?
I used to get a lot of hop burn when everything made it into the fermenter. Your hop bill is light but if it all sat in the fermenter long enough to ferment a pilsner you could be getting bitterness from the plant matter sitting in the beer too long in addition to the tannins from high ph. This is sometimes described as hop burn in the back of the throat.

I try to catch it all with a strainer/cheese cloth combo but I’m sure some got in there. Is this something that can be removed with fining? The sample I was tasting was not clear at all yet (it looked clear in the fermenter so I thought it was chill haze). I added gelatin tonight to it

 

[gello22]

I try to catch it all with a strainer/cheese cloth combo but I’m sure some got in there. Is this something that can be removed with fining? The sample I was tasting was not clear at all yet (it looked clear in the fermenter so I thought it was chill haze). I added gelatin tonight to it

If you are doing some kind of straining combined with the relatively small hop bill then it is most likely not hop burn and I would just focus on the previous advice relative to mash ph.

 

[Sleepy_D]

If you are doing some kind of straining combined with the relatively small hop bill then it is most likely not hop burn and I would just focus on the previous advice relative to mash ph.

I’m going to order some lactic acid and a ph probe tonight

 

[couchsending]

Make sure you learn how to use the pH meter. It needs to be stored correctly and calibrated often. I’d recommend the Milwaukee ones. They might be a bit more expensive but this is a very important tool that needs to be treated well. I’ve got a MW-102 that I’ve used for over 400 brews by now. I replace the probe every now and again but it’s been well worth the money.

Brewing without a pH meter is like driving without a Speedometer. pH can tell you how the entire process is working from before you mash in to final beer. It’s a very easy way to to diagnose problems and really will teach you a lot more about the whole process.

Mash pH is important but measuring and adjusting pH at numerous stages throughout the hotside process can really help you to refine your process and make much better beer.

For most beers with RO water I’m measuring mash ph after 30 minutes then again right before sparge just to confirm nothing changed dramatically. I’ll measure last runnings pH as well as kettle full pH. Depending on the beer I’ll adjust pH to a specific target before the boil or sometimes at 30. I’ll then measure again around 10 and again depending on the beer adjust with 5 minutes left. Always measure the pH going into the fermenter. I’ll then measure with every gravity sample during fermentation.

Everyone of those measurements will tell you how the entire process is working and if you have a potential issue. Then if you do end up with an issue in your final beer it’s much easier to diagnose it by looking at your notes and seeing where pH might have been out of whack.

 

[Sleepy_D]

Make sure you learn how to use the pH meter. It needs to be stored correctly and calibrated often. I’d recommend the Milwaukee ones. They might be a bit more expensive but this is a very important tool that needs to be treated well. I’ve got a MW-102 that I’ve used for over 400 brews by now. I replace the probe every now and again but it’s been well worth the money.

Brewing without a pH meter is like driving without a Speedometer. pH can tell you how the entire process is working from before you mash in to final beer. It’s a very easy way to to diagnose problems and really will teach you a lot more about the whole process.

Mash pH is important but measuring and adjusting pH at numerous stages throughout the hotside process can really help you to refine your process and make much better beer.

For most beers with RO water I’m measuring mash ph after 30 minutes then again right before sparge just to confirm nothing changed dramatically. I’ll measure last runnings pH as well as kettle full pH. Depending on the beer I’ll adjust pH to a specific target before the boil or sometimes at 30. I’ll then measure again around 10 and again depending on the beer adjust with 5 minutes left. Always measure the pH going into the fermenter. I’ll then measure with every gravity sample during fermentation.

Everyone of those measurements will tell you how the entire process is working and if you have a potential issue. Then if you do end up with an issue in your final beer it’s much easier to diagnose it by looking at your notes and seeing where pH might have been out of whack.

I actually bought a Milwaukee one this morning from my local shop! I went with the handheld “pen” version instead of a standard one with a replaceable probe like yours. I work in a quality control lab for my day job so luckily I’m well versed in ph probe maintenance (unfortunately that also means I have no excuse for not doing this earlier but my own laziness).
When you take measurements after the initial mash ph check do you keep making adjustments to keep it at 5.3ish? Even once all the wort is collected before the boil?

 

[couchsending]

I actually bought a Milwaukee one this morning from my local shop! I went with the handheld “pen” version instead of a standard one with a replaceable probe like yours. I work in a quality control lab for my day job so luckily I’m well versed in ph probe maintenance (unfortunately that also means I have no excuse for not doing this earlier but my own laziness).
When you take measurements after the initial mash ph check do you keep making adjustments to keep it at 5.3ish? Even once all the wort is collected before the boil?

5.3-5.4 might be optimal for mash but there’s a good chance your pH will increase slightly towards the end of sparge. Depending on your water. Even with straight RO you will get a slight increase but with water with any alkalinity you could get a decent pH spike at the end of sparge. You have to watch out for this.

pH in the boil has an effect on hop isomerization, protein coagulation, and DMS reduction. Start of the boil pH of 5.4 is optimum for all those but doesn’t mean you might not want lower for a specific beer style. Generally you wouldn’t want higher.

End of the boil pH should be adjust to 5.1 or under at say 5-10 minutes left in the boil. pH optimum for kettle finings is 5.1 and kettle finings should be added with less than 5 minutes left (not at 15 like you e probably been told, they denature). Lowering the knock out pH gives the yeast a helping hand. They naturally lower pH on their own, giving them a head start just helps with fermentation health and speed.

How much natural pH drop you get during the boil depends on a lot of variables so you need a measure often to understand it better. In my experience darker wort tends to drop much more during the boil than lighter colored wort.

Measuring fermentation pH can give you a great indication on how healthy your fermentation is and how vital or healthy your yeast is. It changes by yeast strain but most ale yeast will drop beer pH to 4.2-4.4, lager yeasts a bit higher. But that varies by strain really. There are pH optimums for certain chemical reactions that relate to dry hopping as well as diacetyl pick up.

 

[Sleepy_D]

5.3-5.4 might be optimal for mash but there’s a good chance your pH will increase slightly towards the end of sparge. Depending on your water. Even with straight RO you will get a slight increase but with water with any alkalinity you could get a decent pH spike at the end of sparge. You have to watch out for this.

pH in the boil has an effect on hop isomerization, protein coagulation, and DMS reduction. Start of the boil pH of 5.4 is optimum for all those but doesn’t mean you might not want lower for a specific beer style. Generally you wouldn’t want higher.

End of the boil pH should be adjust to 5.1 or under at say 5-10 minutes left in the boil. pH optimum for kettle finings is 5.1 and kettle finings should be added with less than 5 minutes left (not at 15 like you e probably been told, they denature). Lowering the knock out pH gives the yeast a helping hand. They naturally lower pH on their own, giving them a head start just helps with fermentation health and speed.

How much natural pH drop you get during the boil depends on a lot of variables so you need a measure often to understand it better. In my experience darker wort tends to drop much more during the boil than lighter colored wort.

Measuring fermentation pH can give you a great indication on how healthy your fermentation is and how vital or healthy your yeast is. It changes by yeast strain but most ale yeast will drop beer pH to 4.2-4.4, lager yeasts a bit higher. But that varies by strain really. There are pH optimums for certain chemical reactions that relate to dry hopping as well as diacetyl pick up.

By kettle finings do you mean things like whirlfloc? I’ve always added it at 15 minutes

 

[couchsending]

By kettle finings do you mean things like whirlfloc? I’ve always added it at 15 minutes

Yup add it at 5 not 15

 

[Sleepy_D]

Yup add it at 5 not 15

Awesome will do. I have not heard that before, thank you for all the info that is really helpful

 

[Sleepy_D]

Hey @Yooper i have a couple questions before I brew again this weekend. I’m using a recipe that provides a target water profile and the amount of salts they add to reach that profile in their brew in a bag system (I believe everything is added in the beginning because of the system they use). Since I do not do brew in a bag I was thinking I should add the same quantities of salts (since i use the same total water volume between mash and sparge) but all to my initial mash water, adjust to 5.3 with lactic acid, batch sparge with just RO. my questions are:

1. Should I add all my salts in the mash water like that? I believe I want all the salts so the final beer has the right stuff and not just the mash process
2. Should I adjust the sparge water to 5.3 after adding it as well? I don’t fly sparge so I have the opportunity to adjust the water again after adding my sparge water before I run it off after 5-10 minutes.
3. Should I check and adjust my pre and post boil ph measuremens? Or if I do the mashing and sparging correctly is this not needed/excessive?

thank you for all the advice you have given me so far!