Gravity too high after second sparge

[logdrum]

The title pretty well sums it up. I mash in a Coleman Extreme cooler w a bazooka screen, consistently hit my numbers, but the final runnings are usually about 1.040. Single infusion, double sparge, crush @ .036. Any suggestions on how to keep the volume the same, but increase the efficiency?

 

[acidrain]

You really haven't given any useful information.
What is the recipe and batch size?
What is your target OG?
What is your equipment profile?
What is your mash thickness?
What are your sparge sizes?

 

[logdrum]

Here's the thing: it doesn't really matter what recipe/batch, OG etc I'm brewing, final runnings are always about 1.040 Usually around 1.25:1 on the mash thickness, Coleman cooler w bazooka screen, vorlauf w a pump.
Here's an example:
18# grain milled @ .036 (conditioned for 1/2 hr or so)
5.25 gal strike water
3 gal 1st runnings
2 ea 2.5 gal batch sparges to net about 8 gal to BK
software set to 70% efficiency, and I hit my predicted OG, but as stated, my final runnings are at 1.040ish.

 

[rekoob]

Then either keep sparging (collect in a different BK if you're main one is full) or use less grain next time to adjust your numbers.

Figure out your system efficiency and adjust your software to your system.

 

[logdrum]

Then either keep sparging (collect in a different BK if you're main one is full) or use less grain next time to adjust your numbers.

Figure out your system efficiency and adjust your software to your system.

That's where I am, and like i said, I hit my numbers, but I also don't want to be throwing away resources. Maybe time to try fly sparging.

 

[GrogNerd]

consistently hit my numbers, but the final runnings are usually about 1.040

so, your total volume and gravity pre-boil is ok, it's just your "final runnings" are off?

you mean the gravity you measure in your 2nd sparge/end of runnings is "too high" ?

I'd say as long as your volume and gravity is good going into the BK, don't worry about the end of runnings, but it sounds like your recipe is setup for lower than your actual efficiency.

so you just need to account for that in your recipe and you will end up using less grain in the future

 

[logdrum]

so, your total volume and gravity pre-boil is ok, it's just your "final runnings" are off?

you mean the gravity you measure in your 2nd sparge/end of runnings is "too high" ?

I'd say as long as your volume and gravity is good going into the BK, don't worry about the end of runnings, but it sounds like your recipe is setup for lower than your actual efficiency.

so you just need to account for that in your recipe and you will end up using less grain in the future

Yes that's the picture. I know that consistancy trumps, so it's not a huge worry, but if I can be doing something, I'd like to. What are you guys typical end of sparge runnings measuring at?

 

[popgunandy]

Yes that's the picture. I know the consistancy trumps, so it's not a huge worry, but if I can be doing something, I'd like to. What are you guys typical end of sparge runnings measuring at?

It all just means you have leftover sugars - keep sparging to increase the batch size next time. Then you'll have a truer baseline of your efficiency and can adjust future recipes accordingly.

And you get more beer that way, too. :rockin:

 

[GrogNerd]

Have never measured them

Maybe if I had a refractometer, I would, but I don't

 

[billingsbrew]

I usually finish somewhere between 1.015 and 1.008 depending on recipe and grains used. I always fly Sparge and have only had one gravity stop at 1.045 and that is because it was a large Barley wine. I use a refractometer to measure the output and the majority of the time it's below 1.010. However, I used to have much higher finish runnings before I learned to adjust grain amounts for individual recipes.

 

[chickypad]

Seems like your sparges must be awfully thick - 6 qts per sparge for 18 lbs of grain comes to 1/3 qt per lb. I would imagine it's really thick to stir and maybe you aren't getting the sugars rinsed well. When batch sparging I do a single sparge of about 1 qt per lb, stir the crap out of it, and typically get 78-79% efficiency.

 

[ferm.adventures]

Are you monitoring your water chemistry/ph? Focusing on mash ph and fly sparging with adjusted water made big gains to my efficiency. Last batch my final running were about 1.010 which is where you want to be.

 

[thekraken]

That was a strange way to just ask the general question "how to increase mash efficiency."

My $0.02: I'm with sketchykg. I tried every trick in the book and it wasn't until a messed with my brewing water that my efficiency jumped up. I simply use RO water and AJ DeLange's brewing water recipe here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 . It's super easy and *I* have gotten good results. I take plastic carboy's or fermenting buckets w/ lids to the grocery store and get RO water at the refill machine for about 30 to 40 pennies per gallon.

PS: it sounds like you're mashing in too thick at 1.16 qt/lb.

 

[Gavin C]

18 pounds of grain

5-6 gallon batch

Batch sparging (why not do one batch sparge not two like you state)

Sparge gravity of 1.040

I'm not seeing anything surprising here.


Calculate your desired batch sparge volume V

V= Planned preboil volume-first runnings volume. Easy peasy.

Add this volume, stir the bejeebus out of it. allow to settle vorlauf and drain to kettle.

On to the boil.

Massive grain bill like this folsk will often sparge again to collect runnings for a small beer. (bonus second beer)

Sparging with these tiny amounts is completely ineffective.

 

[feinbera]

I do a similar sparge protocol (first runnings plus two batch sparges) and I've also tracked the gravity of my runnings. Most of my batches are a little smaller than yours; on beers with about 12 lbs grain, I'll collect about eight gallons total, with the first runnings 1.070ish and the batches 1.040ish and 1.020ish. I had a couple bigger beers, 16 lbs and 18 lbs, whose second sparge runnings were 1.030ish, but I also collected a little more, about 8.5 and 9 gallons, respectively.... but, Idunno, that doesn't seem like that big a of a difference.

A couple other things I do, which you may not:

• Stir! Three minutes on mash in, a minute each at 20 and 40 minutes, three minutes at mash out, and three minutes for each sparge addition.
• Hot mash out; if I can't get the grain to 170° on mash out (usually because there's not enough room in my 10-gal cooler), I make darn sure I do with the first sparge addition, and I try to make sure my second sparge addition goes in hot, too.
• Really let the runnings drip out, even tilting the cooler a bit towards the end to maintain the siphon for that last quarter gallon.
• Asymmetrical sparge additions; my first sparge addition is usually about half a gallon larger than my second (I plan my mash protocol with extra water in case something goes pear-shaped, but then usually don't end up needing all of it).

...but, all that being said, I pretty consistently land between 70% and 75% efficiency into the kettle, so, I'm not sure any of my tribulations are actually getting more sugars, versus just moving the same sugars from the last sparge into the first one and the first runnings.

 

[Qhrumphf]

18 pounds of grain

5-6 gallon batch

Batch sparging (why not do one batch sparge not two like you state)

Sparge gravity of 1.040

I'm not seeing anything surprising here.


Calculate your desired batch sparge volume V

V= Planned preboil volume-first runnings volume. Easy peasy.

Add this volume, stir the bejeebus out of it. allow to settle vorlauf and drain to kettle.

On to the boil.

Massive grain bill like this folsk will often sparge again to collect runnings for a small beer. (bonus second beer)

Sparging with these tiny amounts is completely ineffective.

I disagree that it's ineffective. I use roughly the same procedure as the OP, and my efficiency is quite high (88% or so).

I typically mash in thinner though, going 1.35 qt/lb for very large bills where approaching the capacity of my tun, and 1.5 qt/lb for smaller beers, each with a 2 qt deadspace addition. And then I double batch sparge in much the same manner.

I also have my mill set tighter, at 0.032", and I also religiously treat my mash and sparge water, so pH is always in the right range.

Generally my last runnings are 2.5-3°P (1.010-1.012) for moderate gravity beers, but may dip to 2°P for session beers (which is probably a bit oversparged but I'm fastidious about water like I said, so with temp and pH in the right place I haven't had a tannin problem), or sometimes up to 4-5°P for higher gravity beers.

 

[Gavin C]

I disagree .

2.5 gallon sparge for 18 pounds of grain?

If you're getting solid consistent numbers who am I to argue with that.

 

[Qhrumphf]

2.5 gallon sparge for 18 pounds of grain?

If you're getting solid consistent numbers who am I to argue with that.

For grain bills that big i usually partigyle with larger sparges. But 12-13 lbs of grain, yes.

 

[Gavin C]

For grain bills that big i usually partigyle with larger sparges. But 12-13 lbs of grain, yes.

My point was that 2.5 gallon sparge for 18lbs is not going to be effective as shown by the high gravity of the final sparge runnings.

Not surprising results.


Your example is much less grain for a multistep batch sparge with 12-13 lbs of grain and 2.5 gallons of sparge. That's a big difference in the water:grist ratio there compared with the OP's methods. I wouldn't describe your's and the OP's processes as being similar at all, other than your use of multiple sparges.

Big grain bills, bigger volumes, partigyle.

 

[Qhrumphf]

My point was that 2.5 gallon sparge for 18lbs is not going to be effective as shown by the high gravity of the final sparge runnings.

Not surprising results.


Your example is much less grain for a multistep batch sparge with 12-13 lbs of grain and 2.5 gallons of sparge. That's a big difference in the water:grist ratio there compared with the OP's methods. I wouldn't describe your's and the OP's processes as being similar at all, other than your use of multiple sparges.

Big grain bills, bigger volumes, partigyle.

Factor in a partigyle, and yes, it's different. But when I do a single 5.5 gallon batch at that high of a gravity, my process is still very similar to the OP's. However, I still end up with last runnings in the 5-6°P range even in that case, and still end up ~85% efficiency.

My point is that I think a slightly finer crush, as well as dialing in water as others have already suggested, may improve the efficiency more than a change in sparge process.

 

[logdrum]

Seems like your sparges must be awfully thick - 6 qts per sparge for 18 lbs of grain comes to 1/3 qt per lb. I would imagine it's really thick to stir and maybe you aren't getting the sugars rinsed well. When batch sparging I do a single sparge of about 1 qt per lb, stir the crap out of it, and typically get 78-79% efficiency.

I'll try this on the next brew. I do monitor pH & salt additions w the aid of Bru'n Water. I had run into a couple of stuck sparges, so I increased my mill gap.

 

[doug293cz]

Here's the thing: it doesn't really matter what recipe/batch, OG etc I'm brewing, final runnings are always about 1.040 Usually around 1.25:1 on the mash thickness, Coleman cooler w bazooka screen, vorlauf w a pump.
Here's an example:
18# grain milled @ .036 (conditioned for 1/2 hr or so)
5.25 gal strike water
3 gal 1st runnings
2 ea 2.5 gal batch sparges to net about 8 gal to BK
software set to 70% efficiency, and I hit my predicted OG, but as stated, my final runnings are at 1.040ish.

Threw these numbers into a batch sparging simulator and got a predicted 1.033 final running gravity. So, you are leaving behind a little more sugar than a "perfect" sparge would. I think you should look at how well you are stirring prior to each run off, and making sure you drain completely after each run off, not just the last one. You want to minimize the sugar left in the grain after each run off step in order to maximize efficiency.

Brew on

 

[logdrum]

Thanks all for the suggestions, I'll integrate them-hopefully this weekend!

 

[logdrum]

Just as a follow up, I brewed Chickypad's Porter recipe Sunday- thinner mash, single batch sparge & final runnings were 1.032! Success! I also timed my stirrings (5 min @ dough in, 4 min @ sparge, plus 2 min ea. for my pumped vorlauf).