Got my first medal...but my hoppy beers suck

[RedShirt]

Was grateful to receive my first medal (silver) recently for a Helles, based on Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles recipe. Pilsners and other lagers have also come out very tasty. Low-hopped beers in general? Fine.

IPA's? Harsh and astringent.

I generally brew all grain, batch or no-sparse, use temperature-controlled fermentation, good digital thermometer, build my water from RO using Tasty McDole's water profile, use a solid pH meter, and make the required pre-brewing sacrifices to Martin and AJ.

So I think the astringency must be related to hops. Maybe hop matter? I'm not filtering any hops out currently before primary for example and don't currently use a hop spider or sack.

I would love to hear any "success stories" of folks who have overcome a harsh, lingering, bitterness with their hoppy beers.

Here's a link to a recipe example if interested. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/dang-it-came-out-astringenty-cf3ec1/print

 

[bransona]

Check your BU:GU ratio and make sure you're not bittering too hard. My best hop bombs all came from huge hopstand additions. Basically, I FWH to bitter lightly, then get the rest of my IBU in hopstand. The goal in flavor profile for me is to make the flavor last precisely as long on the palate as the predominant bitterness. I also have been more successful when using wheat or oats for body and mouthfeel in dipas and iipas (or even just ipas). I would highly recommend the huge hopstand additions. Try starting under 150* for massive flavor with no harshness.

Also, what kinds of hops have you been using? This could be a factor.

Also also, a typical grain bill for your big hop beers?

Edit: just looked at your link. My immediate thought is the amount of hops to malt. You're hitting a 1.01 BU:GU (very bitter). Try bigger malt bases for that amount of hops. I would also suggest you make a centennial SMaSH and see if that's the flavor you don't like. I've known many hopheads to be turned off by this hop.

 

[RedShirt]

Good thoughts. I did brew a test batch of this beer, but mashed ridiculously high (160) to see if the beer just needed more body. It definitely helped - maybe 20-30% less harsh, but not totally cured. I like the idea of FWH and then hop stand or even maybe just a huge dry hop as an experiment. Thanks for your ideas!

 

[cshamilton]

I had to play around with my water chemistry, but since you are building from RO you should have that covered. What are you adding and how much?

I'm not sure what tasty's number are - this is a link to my water calc http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=LWZF897

I actually dilute my water 50% with distilled or RO and build up. I lightly acidify my sparge water though I batch sparge so I probably don't need to.

 

[RedShirt]

Yeah, that's the other thing I have been thinking of experimenting with: water. Did you make a change that really helped?

Here's the water profile I used on brew day:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=GGX03R3

 

[cshamilton]

I changed a few things at the same time, so I can't say it's definitely the water - but I think that was part of it. My sulfate/Cl ratio isn't as big as yours - maybe go a bit easier on that?

FWH and hopstands are great too. I don't always FWH, but I have a habit of adding several oz of flameout hops and the quickly chill to 180-170F and hold it there for 20-30 minutes.

 

[RedShirt]

Thanks, cshamilton!

 

[cyberbackpacker]

For your water additions, maybe back off and go super simple and small amounts to start like ajdelange outlines in the "water chemistry primer"? Then you can add more to your glass to see if you get where you want. Just a thought. Then if you notice a difference, you can always further play with the total mineral makeup or just scale up.

 

[Yooper]

For your water additions, maybe back off and go super simple and small amounts to start like ajdelange outlines in the "water chemistry primer"? Then you can add more to your glass to see if you get where you want. Just a thought. Then if you notice a difference, you can always further play with the total mineral makeup or just scale up.

That's what I was going to say. Tasty makes GREAT beer- but his pale ale profile as so much sulfate to my taste that it's unappealing in my beers.

I'd go with 135-150 ppm of sulfate, to start.

Something like this:

Calcium: 50-100 pm, Na doesn't matter, Mg: under 25 for sure, less is fine, Cl: under 60 ppm, and a mash pH of 5.4.

That should get you a solid beer, and then you can raise the sulfate in the next batch if you want a drier harsher hops bitterness.

 

[akthor]

Don't feel too bad. IMHO all over hopped beers suck.

 

[303Dan]

What style of IPA are you shooting for? If you're trying for a west coast style IPA, your BU:GU ratio is not in any way too high. Maybe even on the low side. But if you're going for lower bitterness but high hop flavor, then yeah, maybe back off the amount of IBUs you're getting from the boil.

350ppm of Sulfate is pretty darn high. I sometimes enjoy levels up there like that, but depending on other factors, that could definitely come off as harsh.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[RedShirt]

Thanks Yooper! Big fan of your wisdom and experience here. I think I am definitely leaning towards reducing the sulfate significantly.

303Dan - I like a pretty firm bitterness, but comments on the scoresheets for this beer all picked up merely medium bitterness, yet noticeable astringency/harshness.

For next IPA, I think I will try:
- Bigger flameout/hop stand rather than boil additions. Would maybe 6 oz be a good starting point for something like A Simcoe/Citra blend?
- Reduced sulfate, possibly even a little more balance towards the chloride
- Preventing hop trub from getting into fermenter.

Any other ideas? Anything in the above you disagree with?

Akthor - grab a fresh Surly Furious...it might change your mind

 

[303Dan]

Thanks Yooper! Big fan of your wisdom and experience here. I think I am definitely leaning towards reducing the sulfate significantly.

303Dan - I like a pretty firm bitterness, but comments on the scoresheets for this beer all picked up merely medium bitterness, yet noticeable astringency/harshness.

For next IPA, I think I will try:
- Bigger flameout/hop stand rather than boil additions. Would maybe 6 oz be a good starting point for something like A Simcoe/Citra blend?
- Reduced sulfate, possibly even a little more balance towards the chloride
- Preventing hop trub from getting into fermenter.

Any other ideas? Anything in the above you disagree with?

Akthor - grab a fresh Surly Furious...it might change your mind

Hmmmm. Yeah, Due to the fact that you're building your water from RO and you seem to have a handle on pH and water chemistry, I'm doubting it's really astringency, as that usually has to do with pH issues during the sparge. It could be other things, but that's usually what you hear associated with astringency.

I really have a feeling it's related to your high sulfate levels and you're just over-accentuating your hop bitterness. Is it possible you went even higher than 350ppm by mistake?

Do you bottle condition or keg? If you keg, were the bottles you submitted for your competition from some of the first pours? Pellet hops or whole hops? Sorry if you already answered this, but did you dry hop? If so, how and how much? Just trying to figure out if you could have had some hop material in there. Sometimes if a beer is highly dry hopped, it can be pretty harsh before it mellows after a week or so, in my experience. Are you still drinking it and has it changed at all? I've done some keg hopped beers that were borderline undrinkable until they were about 2 weeks in the keg and then they were fabulous.

 

[RedShirt]

Hmmmm. Yeah, Due to the fact that you're building your water from RO and you seem to have a handle on pH and water chemistry, I'm doubting it's really astringency, as that usually has to do with pH issues during the sparge. It could be other things, but that's usually what you hear associated with astringency.

I really have a feeling it's related to your high sulfate levels and you're just over-accentuating your hop bitterness. Is it possible you went even higher than 350ppm by mistake?

Well, I am measuring out my salts in grams with a digital scale, so I doubt I am just measuring wrong. However, I was wondering if the 5 gal "purified by RO and filtration" (Superchill Brand) water might still have some mineral content left in it. I have reached out to supervalu corporate to see if maybe they have a water analysis they can share. That would be my only thought on how additional sulfate would be in there.

Do you bottle condition or keg?

Keg.

If you keg, were the bottles you submitted for your competition from some of the first pours? Pellet hops or whole hops?

Submit about 2 weeks into kegging. So fairly fresh, but it had dropped fairly clear.

Sorry if you already answered this, but did you dry hop? If so, how and how much? Just trying to figure out if you could have had some hop material in there. Sometimes if a beer is highly dry hopped, it can be pretty harsh before it mellows after a week or so, in my experience.

Yes. Dry hopped with pellets prior to kegging, then cold crashed, biofined, and kegged.

Are you still drinking it and has it changed at all? I've done some keg hopped beers that were borderline undrinkable until they were about 2 weeks in the keg and then they were fabulous.

Still drinking it, and it has definitely improved a little, but the harshness is still detectable.

On a whim, I'm also giving my copper wort chiller a nice cleaning. Pretty unlikely it's that, but I guess it can't hurt!

 

[ballsy]

My first thought was your high levels of sulfate as well, which obviously Yooper and others have already commented on. Would be really surprised if lowering that as said to max 150 doesn't solve your issue. Good luck!

 

[m00ps]

I dunno, Id say if its only your hoppy beers that are bad, the water may not be as large of an issue. But id definitely look into large flameout additions combined with a hopstand for future hoppy beers. 4-6oz for 30min or so sounds solid to me. Also, where the hell are the dry hops?

 

[RedShirt]

Ha! I think I forgot to put in Brewtoad. Dry hopped with a couple ounces of Galaxy.

 

[UndeadFred]

Unless you love strong IPA's and brew them all the time, I would avoid having the IPA crowd judge your IPA's. I like mine but they aren't the hop bombs that they are used to and love and you will always score lower. I will forever leave that category to the people who live for it. Now at some point I'd like to enter a stout. Those are my sort of people...

I om someone who still thinks the current batch of IPAs are a fad. Once there is a real hop shortage .... well...

 

[KyleWolf]

Was grateful to receive my first medal (silver) recently for a Helles, based on Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles recipe. Pilsners and other lagers have also come out very tasty. Low-hopped beers in general? Fine.

IPA's? Harsh and astringent.

I generally brew all grain, batch or no-sparse, use temperature-controlled fermentation, good digital thermometer, build my water from RO using Tasty McDole's water profile, use a solid pH meter, and make the required pre-brewing sacrifices to Martin and AJ.

So I think the astringency must be related to hops. Maybe hop matter? I'm not filtering any hops out currently before primary for example and don't currently use a hop spider or sack.

I would love to hear any "success stories" of folks who have overcome a harsh, lingering, bitterness with their hoppy beers.

Here's a link to a recipe example if interested. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/dang-it-came-out-astringenty-cf3ec1/print

I completely agree with everyone when it comes to the amount of sulfates in the water, but I do have one other question.

You said that you are not filtering out your hops in any way (like using a hop spider or sack), does your boil kettle have a bazooka screen? Or are you just letting all of the hop debris from the boil go into your fermenter? Sounds like a silly question when I type it out, but if you are letting a ton of boiled hop material get into your primary, you may be getting over extraction of the debris which I have found can give a vegetal/tea-like astringency. Just a wild thought.

 

[RedShirt]

KyleWolf - currently no kettle screen, so yes - lots of hop material is going into the primary.

 

[RedShirt]

Update! Making progress: using hop bags to restrain hop material going into fermenter. And getting most IBUs from a whirlpool addition seems to be working well. Want to give my pale ale another week or so before the final answer though. Thanks again folks!

 

[Tae]

Update! Making progress: using hop bags to restrain hop material going into fermenter. And getting most IBUs from a whirlpool addition seems to be working well. Want to give my pale ale another week or so before the final answer though. Thanks again folks!

So how did this turn out?