Golden Ale Recipe. Where'd I go wrong??

[Arkhomer]

Used recipe as follows to brew a Golden Ale a few weeks ago. Just finished keg carbonating and it's not at all what I had imagined. I'm not getting any sweet malty flavors or creamy mouthfeel. It's not terrible, just very crisp and sudden... No smooth edges. Definitely not a sanitation issue (been down that road before).

8 lbs Pale 2-row
1 lb Vienna
1 lb Munich
8 oz White Wheat
8 oz Flaked Barley

1/2 oz Cascade 6%a, 60 min
1/2 oz Mt. Hood 5%a, 20 min
1/2 oz Cascade 6%, 20 min
1/2 oz Mt. Hood 5%, flamout

White Labs WLP036 Dusseldorf Alt.

The only thing I changed from the original recipe was the yeast. The original recipe called for WLP080, however my local brew shop was out.

Any idea where I might have gone wrong?

 

[waldoar15]

What temp did you mash at?

Doesn't look like a bad grain bill, might just take some time to smooth out. Probably wont get maltier though.

What's the total IBU? I'd have probably kept it below 30 for what you seem to have been looking for in this beer.

 

[thehaze]

Creamy mouthfeel will get from using oats and flaked barley, but not 8 oz. That's not enough to achieve anything in 5 gallons of beer. You need 10% flaked something/oats +.

There are no sweet flavours as your recipe would not have where to get that from. It also depends on what you call or believe sweet matly is. But without any " sweet " crystal malt and a higher mash temp. to really get some unfermentable dextrins in there, your beer will feel properly attenuated, crisp, bitter.

50% Vienna could possibly get you some malty flavours, but not sweet.

 

[DonGavlar]

Firstly, what temp did you mash at? A higher temp mash will produce more unfermentable sugars leaving you with a fuller, sweeter end product. I tend to mash my english ales around 155/156 and usually end with an FG of around 014/018 which I find gives me that full bodied, sweeter beer that you're describing.

That brings me onto your FG, what was your FG? If you finished out at say 010 or below then yes you're going to have a more crisp tasting beer, thinner bodied. The minimum I'd want my amber ales coming out at would be 014 really as I like a fuller body, sweeter ale. If your FG was quite low then just mash at a higher temp next time.

Lastly, do you know your water profile? Your water profile may be giving you an end product that accentuates hop flavor or gives a crisper, sharper mouth feel. The water profiles I use for say an american IPA and say a malty English ale are very different.

Oh yeah and what carbonation level are you at on it? I always leave my malty beers on the lower end of the carbonation levels as I find this allows that malty smooth character to come through you describe. Higher carbonation will produce a more clean, refreshing sharp character. Oh yeah and serving temp, I find the colder the beer, the more that malty smooth character fades.

 

[cubalz]

As DonGavlar said, the sweetness/dryness of the finished beer is mostly controlled by your mash temperature. I am betting that you mashed at around 150 which caused your issue. Make the same recipe again but this time mash in at 156. You should be pleased with the result. In regards to your grain bill, omit the flaked barley and double up the white wheat to 16 oz. My 2 cents.

 

[kh54s10]

I agree that the grainbill doesn't really show "malty". You would get a little bit from the Vienna and a little more from the Munich but you don't have enough there. More flaked barley may have given you a more creamy mouthfeel.

Mash temperature has also been mentioned.

Age may give it a bit of a smoother taste.

 

[Arkhomer]

Wow. Thanks for all the good information.

The target IBUs was 21. I didn't calculate my actual IBU. Yes, I mashed at 152 for 1 hour. My final gravity was 1.010. Good information on mashing at a higher temp, I didn't know that would produce more unfermentable sugars. I'll have to try that next time.

I have my keezer set at 38 degrees and 10 psi so ~2.38 volumes of CO2. I don't know that I'd want to set temp much lower because I have a brown ale and pale ale in there are doing well, however I could try lowering the pressure a bit on the cream ale.

As far as water profile... I'm using our local water source (which is really good water and I know a lot of home brewers use frequently). I have no idea if it accentuates one flavor over another. I am still pretty green (I have brewed 4 all grain batches) and am still working on trying to dissect flavors. Luckily my local brew shop is putting on a beer tasting class this weekend and I will be there!

Thanks for all of the help folks.

 

[DonGavlar]

Wow. Thanks for all the good information.

The target IBUs was 21. I didn't calculate my actual IBU. Yes, I mashed at 152 for 1 hour. My final gravity was 1.010. Good information on mashing at a higher temp, I didn't know that would produce more unfermentable sugars. I'll have to try that next time.

I have my keezer set at 38 degrees and 10 psi so ~2.38 volumes of CO2. I don't know that I'd want to set temp much lower because I have a brown ale and pale ale in there are doing well, however I could try lowering the pressure a bit on the cream ale.

As far as water profile... I'm using our local water source (which is really good water and I know a lot of home brewers use frequently). I have no idea if it accentuates one flavor over another. I am still pretty green (I have brewed 4 all grain batches) and am still working on trying to dissect flavors. Luckily my local brew shop is putting on a beer tasting class this weekend and I will be there!

Thanks for all of the help folks.

When you say you mashed at 152, what was the final mash temp and is the thermometer you’re using accurate? When i first started brewing I found out I was using a thermometer that was actually about 3F under actual temp. So when I thought I was mashing at say 152, I was actually mashing at 149, I then was also losing about 5F during my mash, so my mash was finishing at around 144. Once I got a correct reading thermometer and sorted my temp drops, I stopped getting thin beers.

Next time you want to make a malty full bodied beer give 155F/156F mash a go. I think it’ll help.

The fact the beer finished at 010 suggests the finished beer would indeed be pretty neutral, not full but not really thin. Like I said, some of my better english ales have finished at around 016-018.

From what you say it seems your water will probably be quite neutral and fine for most styles.

My hunch is its mash temp that will sort your problem. Give the higher temp mash a go, perhaps add some extra maltyness next time, some dark english crystal, aromatic or something if you want. But saying that, I’ve made very malty full beers with just MO and crystal, just high mash temps and a bit of age.

Good luck!

 

[DonGavlar]

Also, forgot to add. Next time try a yeast that doesn’t attenuate so much. I have great luck with WLP002 and WLP005 with my english ales. They leave a nice residual sweetness.

 

[Arkhomer]

Thanks DonGavlar

 

[ba-brewer]

Is this recipe for a British Golden Ale?

When I look at the BJCP requirements for a golden ale(12A), the OP's description seems close to how I interpret the requirements. It reads like a drier American Pale ale, mostly base malt. Creamy and malty sounds more like a blonde ale.

I am from the US so I have never had a true british golden ale, is this another case where the BJCP is out of sync with what the real thing is suppose to be?

 

[DonGavlar]

Is this recipe for a British Golden Ale?

When I look at the BJCP requirements for a golden ale(12A), the OP's description seems close to how I interpret the requirements. It reads like a drier American Pale ale, mostly base malt. Creamy and malty sounds more like a blonde ale.

I am from the US so I have never had a true british golden ale, is this another case where the BJCP is out of sync with what the real thing is suppose to be?

Over here in the UK we don’t really get all that many golden ales. Well, not that I’m aware of anyway. I think the terms more of a modern thing. The commercial ones I have had here tend to drink like our normal bitters but just a bit lighter (golden in colour). They’d usually be on cask, or if in a bottle a very low carbonation. The ones I have tried have been slightly dry finish, good mouthfeel and body, still malty but with a very slight bit more hop flavour (nothing like what you americans would consider hop flavour). I’d assume the recipe for one would simply be maris otter and some UK crystal with some EKG to bitter, possibly some hops through the hop back.

 

[ba-brewer]

@DonGavlar Thanks for the clarification. It seem like your description would fit into the BJCP requirements, but the requirements seem to be more open and maybe suggest less malt presents and more hops.

 

[DonGavlar]

@DonGavlar Thanks for the clarification. It seem like your description would fit into the BJCP requirements, but the requirements seem to be more open and maybe suggest less malt presents and more hops.

I think a golden really can be anywhere from lower hop presence to higher hop presence. Compared to say an american pale though, it would be no where near that amount of hop presence. Usually if an English man describes a beer as hop forward, you can almost bet an American would not. I'm a huge fan of american pales and IPAs and love the huge in your face hop flavours and aromas and even though its catching on in the UK at the moment and becoming very popular, no traditional English ale makers are really making anything that hoppy.

To me a golden ale is just an ale that a bit darker than a blonde an not quite your amber. But you're right, when comparing it to an amber I would say it would probably be less malty and more hoppy.

Going back to OPs recipe though, I'd say that looks more along the lines of an amber to be honest.

 

[DonGavlar]

@ba-brewer Incase you wanted to have a look at 2 examples.. heres an example of each beer from one of my favourite English brewers.

Amber: https://www.rebellionbeer.co.uk/beers/full-beer-range/rebellion-amber.aspx

Golden: https://www.rebellionbeer.co.uk/beers/full-beer-range/rebellion-gold.aspx

Each beer has its description on there and what malt and hops are used. Be aware though, like I mentioned before.. when an English ale is described as "intensely" hoppy, its not quite what you american guys will have in mind.

Both beers are great on cask. The amber is one of my favourite beers.

 

[soccerdad]

Those lighter colored grains will also tend to keep the ph in a higher range. Darker, sweeter grains tend to naturally lower it. So at the very least get your water tested - or get a report from the water authority where you live. A good calculator will then tell you more about starting ph and estimated mash ph.

 

[65C]

you could try using Maris Otter as the main grain - it has that sweeter malty flavour - especially when I mash 68Cish

ironically I spend a lot of time trying to minimise the sweet/malty so I dilute the MO down with something more inert

 

[ba-brewer]

@ba-brewer Incase you wanted to have a look at 2 examples.. heres an example of each beer from one of my favourite English brewers.

Amber: https://www.rebellionbeer.co.uk/beers/full-beer-range/rebellion-amber.aspx

Golden: https://www.rebellionbeer.co.uk/beers/full-beer-range/rebellion-gold.aspx

Each beer has its description on there and what malt and hops are used. Be aware though, like I mentioned before.. when an English ale is described as "intensely" hoppy, its not quite what you american guys will have in mind.

Both beers are great on cask. The amber is one of my favourite beers.

Thanks for the links and information in the previous post. I brew single hopped beers to checkout different hops I call blondes but may be closer to a golden. They use a simple mostly base malt grain bill with a touch of crystal or abbey malt and tend to be on the drier side and have more hops presence than a typical blonde. I may have English taste buds as I can get plenty of hop flavor from a couple ounces of hops.