Getting More Complexity Out Of My Sours

[gometz]

In late 2014 I bought some of Wyeasts de Bom souring blend, and have since made 5 sours primarily with that (also pitched dregs from Jolly Pumpkin, Jester King, Prairie, and 2 others I forgot), and soured 2 other beers using some of the cake. The beers get a nice sourness to them, and depending on the other yeasts that I pitch, sometimes a nice backbone.

But my biggest complaint is that they are almost always VERY sour. I haven't been able to get a beer to be only nicely sour. The first 4 sour beers have been pitched directly onto the cake (carboy purged with CO2 when racking the beer), and they all have a nice sour bite, but not much else. I added some dregs to a finished hefeweizen, and while it is nice, there is no real complexity or character of the donor beer.

Am I over pitching my bacteria? Should I first ferment the beers clean, then add brett, and finally add bacteria once the brett has done most of its work?

Any input is appreciated. I have been trying different ways to bring more character in. The latest batch was made with almost 30% flaked rye and fermented "cool" (72*F) with some aeration, with the hope that the sourness doesn't dominate and some of the saison flavor of the copitched yeast comes through more. I also removed most of the cake from the carboy to reduce the amount of bacteria in the mix. I will sample it again tonight to see where it stands.

 

[BGBC]

What kind of IBUs are you using in your recipes? Upping the IBUs should be a simple way to inhibit the lacto in that yeast cake in future beers. You've got some pedio in there now from the dregs, but the initial de Bom is primarily Lacto from what I've read.

I think your idea of clean primary, then brett, then a smaller bug pitch could also lead to more complexity.

Blending is probably the real secret to getting more complexity though. Blend an overly sour beer with a funky brett/sacch beer, for example.

 

[gometz]

Normally I go with 5-15 IBU wort.

The reason why I worry about just blending or even doing a multi-step fermentation is my experience using it just in secondary. The fact that the hefeweizen got puckering sour even though it was clean and at around 1.012 before adding the bugs makes me worry that this blend seems like it can turn anything sour. I wonder if there is an explanation for this?

Edit: The Hefe was also on the order of 12 IBU before souring.

 

[505-Brewer]

Some dregs are really aggressive hence the need to blend. Mash low, like 149F or lower. Ferment with yeast to get the beer dry then pitch the dregs. Or better yet go to pre-souring with lacto, halt it by lowering the temp then pitch yeast w/O2. One can make a pH 3.5 beer at 1.012 finishing gravity this way. The key is to get a nice lacto source and know how it behaves. I've had various results depending on the lacto and ibus. Its all part of the fun - but yes I have more sours that need blending than I do that are simply ready to drink without it.

 

[gometz]

Some dregs are really aggressive hence the need to blend. Mash low, like 149F or lower. Ferment with yeast to get the beer dry then pitch the dregs. Or better yet go to pre-souring with lacto, halt it by lowering the temp then pitch yeast w/O2. One can make a pH 3.5 beer at 1.012 finishing gravity this way. The key is to get a nice lacto source and know how it behaves. I've had various results depending on the lacto and ibus. Its all part of the fun - but yes I have more sours that need blending than I do that are simply ready to drink without it.

I think this will be my method next time. Use 3711 to get it really dry, then sour it.

The 30% flaked rye sour isn't as sour as the others yet, but it is also only a month old. I am hoping the brett in the blend takes over soon.

 

[beergolf]

I have used the De Bom mix. Each generation got progressively more sour. The first generation was slightly sour, but the third generation it was definitely a lot more sour. That combined with the other bugs you have would explain it getting very sour.

 

[gometz]

I have used the De Bom mix. Each generation got progressively more sour. The first generation was slightly sour, but the third generation it was definitely a lot more sour. That combined with the other bugs you have would explain it getting very sour.

What I wonder though is if I can continue to use this blend of bugs/yeast to make less sour beers, or if they have become too powerful.

 

[madscientist451]

In late 2014 I bought some of Wyeasts de Bom souring blend, and have since made 5 sours primarily with that (also pitched dregs from Jolly Pumpkin, Jester King, Prairie, and 2 others I forgot), and soured 2 other beers using some of the cake. The beers get a nice sourness to them, and depending on the other yeasts that I pitch, sometimes a nice backbone.

But my biggest complaint is that they are almost always VERY sour. I haven't been able to get a beer to be only nicely sour.

You need to keep trying different yeasts and methods, maybe from some of the smaller yeast companies and keep pitching those bottle dregs. Another route is to do what Rodenbach does, make a sour that you'd age for like 18 months but after 12 months make the same brew and and when the young one is 6 months old do some blending trials, like 1/3 new to 2/3 old, 1/3 old and 2/3 new. The sour hour podcasts on the brewing network are a good source of information.

 

[gometz]

I'll have to look up those podcasts, hadn't listened to them yet. Thanks

 

[BGBC]

Sour hour is definitely worth listening to

 

[mitchard]

The Jolly Pumpkin dregs seem to get stuff real sour, real quick. I have no idea what their house culture blend is comprised of, but it does the job faster than most from what I have been reading. I have a low gravity golden that wasn't picking up much after a few months, but it soured up really fast after pitching the dregs of one bottle of Oro de Calabaza.

 

[signpost]

I'm sure you can keep using the same blend of bugs you have. You might just have to use a combo of the suggestions already given by others.

I would bump up the IBUs to the high teens, ferment clean with an attenuative yeast (like the 3711 you mentioned), then add a small amount of the sour yeast cake instead of pitching on the whole thing.

I know most Jolly Pumpkin beers have IBUs around 20 or so, and they use a low mash temp and attenuative sacch yeast. They know their bugs are super-powered, so they use those methods to limit the souring. Of course, they also blend from multiple barrels for pretty much all of their beers. So, that's something to look into as well.