Geraniol/Linalool in UK hops?

[lowtones84]

Hello all,

I know that we tend to only think of hops with American parentage as containing geraniol and/or linalool, but does anyone know of any UK hops (also grown in the UK) that possess these oils in any appreciable amount? Most of the literature says no, but I found this:

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/zemJvlGj2A/

"This hop (Target) also has an unusually high geraniol oil content, which results in a floral flavor."

The source is from 1991, however. Is this information just incorrect? Was it bred out? Target, Challenger, and Fuggles to some extent all exhibit some floral/perfumey character at times to me.

Follow up: Does anyone know of any research about other hop compounds "bio transforming?"
Follow up #2: European continental hops other than Saaz containing these compounds?

Thanks all!

 

[aeviaanah]

https://appellationbeer.com/blog/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Err - isn't this the water board? Seriously, could the water stuff be moved to its own board to free up this board for more this kind of question?

"This hop (Target) also has an unusually high geraniol oil content, which results in a floral flavor."

The source is from 1991, however. Is this information just incorrect?

I doubt it's incorrect, but you need to set it in context. If that's a quote from Ray Neve's book then that's the verdict of a man who grew up on traditional British hops, and who was breeding them back in the days when the US was a monoculture of Cluster, before Cascade was released - and even Centennial was only released a few months before the book came out, never mind the Simcoes and Citras. So people's ideas on what represented "unusually high" flavours was a bit different then.

Having said that, if you look at the tables below, guess what comes out on top for geraniol content - Brewer's Gold grown in the US, followed by her daughter Centennial. Brewer's Gold was a grandmother of Northern Brewer, which was a grandmother of Target and Challenger, so it does look like there could be a family link to high geraniol there.

However Fuggles looks low in both - when Kishimoto made beer with different hops, the 2005 Fuggles beer had the least linalool and geraniol of all of them. In general beers made with the US varieties had 3-4x as much geraniol as the European ones, but linalool was rather more evenly distributed and in fact Hersbrucker had almost as much linalool as the US varieties and the 2006 Taurus beer had about twice as much linalool as any other hop.

A similar pattern was seen with myrcene, with the US varieties generally having a lot more, but this time German Magnum was comparable to the US varieties and Taurus had twice as much. However, myrcene is very terroir- and vintage- dependent, as it needs a lot of sunlight to develop. You can really notice the lack of citrus in British hops in vintages when August is cloudy, and typically hops from the New World typically have 30-50% more myrcene than the same variety grown in the UK. That presentation also has maps of sunlight intensity etc (and as an aside, a pic of Ray Neve).

The Shellhammer lab even found a difference of over 50% in oil content between the same variety grown on different farms in the Willamette Valley - and the farm that had the most oil for Cascade was worst for Willamette. Cascade is interesting as you can compare it when grown around the world per that article - in the US and Germany it's slightly more green/spicy, whereas southern hemisphere Cascade has higher linalool and geraniol (up to 0.7% and 1.4% respectively) and Australian Cascade has double the geranyl acetate of the others. See also Northern Brewer and Hallertau in the second list below.

It may not just be climate that affects these things. Kishimoto also looked at 4-MMP. Lots in Simcoe 2005, 80% less in Simcoe 2006, quite a lot in Apollo and Summit 2006 and not very much in anything else. But it's claimed that there's a significant difference between Perle grown in the US and Germany, and there's a suggestion that it's down to the use in Europe of copper fungicides. It's even suggested that copper could be used to control the development of oniony-ness in varieties like Summit.

So in short - hop oils are subject to a whole lot of factors beyond just variety, so you've got to take any published work with a bit of a pinch of salt.

Follow up: Does anyone know of any research about other hop compounds "bio transforming?"

There's been a lot done, but not much published - I'm sure Scott Janish will have dug up all he can for his imminent book. But eg Eyres et al compared the effect of different strains on linalool, citronellol, geraniol and methyl geranate, but slide 21 shows that methyl geranate is rather more dependent on pitch rate than yeast strain.

Follow up #2: European continental hops other than Saaz containing these compounds?

See Kishimoto p62 - Taurus seems to be the star on the linalool and myrcene fronts with double that of the US varieties, Magnum is comparable to the US varieties for myrcene, some of the esters and is not bad for geraniol, Hercules is comparable to the US varieties for linalool.

For the traditional varieties, I suspect some of the references in Sharpe & Laws 1981 may be helpful, in particular on p102 such as Kruger & Neumann Monatsschrift für Brauerei 1975,28,20 which analysed the oils from 103 varieties in the 1970/1 vintages. The MfB will be tough to find outside hardcore brewing or copyright libraries though.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Heh - I hit the character limit, so have had to split into two posts.

Despite all the caveats above, I thought it would be useful to rip the terpenol data from the Yakima Chief list of hops. It's expressed as ranges, so I've taken the average oil content in ml per 100g and multiplied it by the average percentage of linalool and geraniol to get microlitres per 100g. It's a pretty dodgy method at the best of times, even before you take into consideration some of the stuff above about vintage variation and terroir. But reassuringly it does correlate quite well to the famous chart in Takoi et al, in that Bravo is one of the best for geraniol and Nugget for linalool, even if they are beaten by Brewer's Gold-US/Centennial and Loral/Merkur respectively. Unfortunately that list doesn't have geraniol contents for many German varieties and nothing for the British varieties, but it's a start.

I'll emphasise though that it's not reliable, there will be huge variations in these things. Anyway, first the list sorted by geraniol content :

                      Oils     Linalool     Geraniol  lin/ul ger/ul
Brewer's Gold   USA   1.5-3   0.5 - 0.8%   1.0 - 1.8%  14.6  31.5
Centennial      USA   1.0-3   0.6 - 0.9%   1.2 - 1.8%  15.0  30.0
Bravo           USA   2.3-3.5 0.4 - 0.6%   0.7 - 0.9%  14.5  23.2
Simcoe          USA   0.8-3.2 0.5 - 0.9%   0.8 - 1.2%  14.0  20.0
Chinook         USA   1-2.5   0.3 - 0.5%   0.7 - 1.0%   7.0  14.9
Mosaic          USA   0.8-3   0.4 - 0.8%   0.5 - 0.9%  11.4  13.3
CTZ             USA   2.5-4.5 0.4 - 0.6%   0.2 - 0.5%  17.5  12.3
Olympic         USA   1.0-2   0.4 - 0.7%   0.6 - 1.0%   8.3  12.0
Ekuanot         USA   2.5-4   0.2 - 0.5%   0.2 - 0.5%  11.4  11.4
Magnum          USA   2.0-3   0.4 - 0.7%   0.3 - 0.6%  13.8  11.3
Galena          USA   1.3-2.1 0.1 - 0.3%   0.5 - 0.8%   3.4  11.1
Warrior         USA   1-2.5   0.4 - 0.7%   0.4 - 0.8%   9.6  10.5
Citra           USA   1.5-3   0.6 - 0.9%   0.3 - 0.5%  16.9   9.0
Comet           USA   1.2-2   0.5 - 0.8%   0.2 - 0.9%  10.4   8.8
Crystal         USA   0.8-2.3 0.6 - 1.0%   0.4 - 0.7%  12.4   8.5
Summit          USA   1.5-3   0.2 - 0.4%   0.1 - 0.6%   6.8   7.9
Newport         USA   1.6-2.5 0.3 - 0.7%   0.2 - 0.5%  10.3   7.2
Sorachi         USA   1.5-3   0.3 - 0.5%   0.1 - 0.5%   9.0   6.8
Ahtanum         USA   0.5-1.7 0.4 - 0.6%   0.4 - 0.7%   5.5   6.1
Mt. Rainier     USA   1.5-2.5 0.6 - 0.9%   0.2 - 0.4%  15.0   6.0
Columbia        USA   1-2     0.2 - 0.5%   0.2 - 0.6%   5.3   6.0
Loral           USA   1.8-2.9 1.0 - 1.1%   0.2 - 0.3%  24.7   5.9
Cluster         USA   0.5-1   0.4 - 0.8%   0.6 - 0.9%   4.5   5.6
Cascade         USA   0.8-2.5 0.3 - 0.6%   0.2 - 0.4%   7.4   5.0
Sterling        USA   1-2     0.6 - 0.9%   0.2 - 0.4%  11.3   4.5
Millennium      USA   1.5-3   0.3 - 0.6%   0.1 - 0.3%  10.1   4.5
Tahoma          USA   1.5-2   0.4 - 0.8%   0.1 - 0.4%  10.5   4.4
Perle           USA   0.8-2   0.3 - 0.8%   0.2 - 0.4%   7.7   4.2
Mt. Hood        USA   0.8-2   0.5 - 0.9%   0.1 - 0.5%   9.8   4.2
Palisade        USA   0.8-2   0.4 - 0.6%   0.1 - 0.5%   7.0   4.2
Ultra           USA   1-1.5   1.0 - 1.5%   0.1 - 0.5%  15.6   3.8
Amarillo        USA   1-2.3   0.5 - 0.8%   0.1 - 0.3%  10.7   3.3
Nugget          USA   1-3     0.8 - 1.0%   0.1 - 0.2%  18.0   3.0
Bitter          USA   1-2     0.4 - 0.7%   0.1 - 0.3%   8.3   3.0
Bullion         USA   1-2     0.5 - 0.8%   0.1 - 0.3%   9.8   3.0
Horizon         USA   0.5-1.5 0.9 - 1.5%   0.1 - 0.5%  12.0   3.0
Liberty         USA   1-1.8   0.6 - 1.0%   0.1 - 0.3%  11.2   2.8
Hallertau       USA   0.5-1   0.6 - 1.0%   0.1 - 0.6%   6.0   2.6
Sladek          CZE   1-2     0.15 -0.3%   0.1 - .25%   3.4   2.6
Santiam         USA   1-2.2   0.8 - 1.2%   0.0 - 0.3%  16.0   2.4
Northern Brewer USA   1-2     0.4 - 0.8%   0.1 - 0.2%   9.0   2.3
Glacier         USA   0.8-1   0.8 - 1.1%   0.2 - 0.3%   8.6   2.3
Willamette      USA   0.6-1.6 0.4 - 0.7%   0.1 - 0.3%   6.1   2.2
Tettnang        USA   0.4-1   0.6 - 0.8%   0.2 - 0.4%   4.9   2.1
Kazbek          CZE   0.9-1.8 0.3 - 0.5%   0.05- 0.2%   5.4   1.7
Fuggle          USA   0.5-1   0.6 - 1.0%   0.1 - 0.3%   6.0   1.5
Golding         USA   0.4-1   0.6 - 0.9%   0.1 - 0.3%   5.3   1.4
Vanguard        USA   0.5-1   0.2 - 0.4%   0.1 - 0.2%   2.3   1.1
Yakima          USA   0.5-1.5 0.1 - 0.5%   0.0 - 0.2%   3.0   1.0
Saaz            CZE   0.4-0.8 0.4 - 0.6%   0.1 - 0.2%   3.0   0.9
Premiant        CZE   1-2     0.4 - 0.7%   0.02- 0.1%   8.3   0.9

Then sorted by linalool content - there's more of these as not all had geraniol contents reported :

                   Oils     Linalool   Geraniol lin/ul ger/ul
Loral         USA 1.8-2.9  1.0 - 1.1% 0.2 - 0.3% 24.7  5.9
Merkur        GER 2-3      0.6 - 1.1%            21.3
Nugget        USA 1-3      0.8 - 1.0% 0.1 - 0.2% 18.0  3.0
CTZ           USA 2.5-4.5  0.4 - 0.6% 0.2 - 0.5% 17.5 12.3
Citra         USA 1.5-3    0.6 - 0.9% 0.3 - 0.5% 16.9  9.0
Santiam       USA 1-2.2    0.8 - 1.2% 0.0 - 0.3% 16.0  2.4
Ultra         USA 1-1.5    1.0 - 1.5% 0.1 - 0.5% 15.6  3.8
Centennial    USA 1-3      0.6 - 0.9% 1.2 - 1.8% 15.0 30.0
Mt. Rainier   USA 1.5-2.5  0.6 - 0.9% 0.2 - 0.4% 15.0  6.0
Brewer's Gold USA 1.5-3    0.5 - 0.8% 1.0 - 1.8% 14.6 31.5
Bravo         USA 2.3-3.5  0.4 - 0.6% 0.7 - 0.9% 14.5 23.2
Taurus        GER 0.9-1.4  1.0 - 1.5%            14.4
Simcoe        USA 0.8-3.2  0.5 - 0.9% 0.8 - 1.2% 14.0 20.0
Magnum        USA 2-3      0.4 - 0.7% 0.3 - 0.6% 13.8 11.3
Opal          GER 0.8-1.3  1.0 - 1.5%            13.1
Crystal       USA 0.8-2.3  0.6 - 1.0% 0.4 - 0.7% 12.4  8.5
Horizon       USA 0.5-1.5  0.9 - 1.5% 0.1 - 0.5% 12.0  3.0
Saphir        GER 0.8-1.4  0.8 - 1.3%            11.6
Mosaic        USA 0.8-3    0.4 - 0.8% 0.5 - 0.9% 11.4 13.3
Ekuanot       USA 2.5-4    0.2 - 0.5% 0.2 - 0.5% 11.4 11.4
Sterling      USA 1-2      0.6 - 0.9% 0.2 - 0.4% 11.3  4.5
Polaris       GER 4-5      0.1 - 0.4%            11.3
Liberty       USA 1-1.8    0.6 - 1.0% 0.1 - 0.3% 11.2  2.8
Herkules      GER 1.6-2.4  0.3 - 0.8%            11.0
Amarillo      USA 1-2.3    0.5 - 0.8% 0.1 - 0.3% 10.7  3.3
Tahoma        USA 1.5-2    0.4 - 0.8% 0.1 - 0.4% 10.5  4.4
Comet         USA 1.2-2    0.5 - 0.8% 0.2 - 0.9% 10.4  8.8
Newport       USA 1.6-2.5  0.3 - 0.7% 0.2 - 0.5% 10.3  7.2
Millennium    USA 1.5-3    0.3 - 0.6% 0.1 - 0.3% 10.1  4.5
Mt. Hood      USA 0.8-2    0.5 - 0.9% 0.1 - 0.5%  9.8  4.2
Bullion       USA 1-2      0.5 - 0.8% 0.1 - 0.3%  9.8  3.0
Warrior       USA 1-2.5    0.4 - 0.7% 0.4 - 0.8%  9.6  10.5
Select        GER 0.6-0.9  1.0 - 1.5%             9.4
Northern Brwr USA 1-2      0.4 - 0.8% 0.1 - 0.2%  9.0  2.3
Sorachi       USA 1.5-3    0.3 - 0.5% 0.1 - 0.5%  9.0  6.8
Mittelfruh    GER 0.7-1.3  0.7 - 1.1%             9.0
Topaz         AUS 1.7-2.2  0.3 - 0.6%             8.8
Glacier       USA 0.8-1    0.8 - 1.1% 0.2 - 0.3%  8.6  2.3
Olympic       USA 1-2      0.4 - 0.7% 0.6 - 1.0%  8.3 12.0
Bitter        USA 1-2      0.4 - 0.7% 0.1 - 0.3%  8.3  3.0
Premiant      CZE 1-2      0.4 - 0.7% 0.02- 0.1%  8.3  0.9
Mandarina     GER 2.2      0.1 - 0.6%             7.7
Perle         USA 0.8-2    0.3 - 0.8% 0.2 - 0.4%  7.7  4.2
Tradition     GER 0.5-1    0.7 - 1.3%             7.5
Cascade       USA 0.8-2.5  0.3 - 0.6% 0.2 - 0.4%  7.4  5.0
Northern Brwr GER 1-1.6    0.3 - 0.8%             7.2
Chinook       USA 1-2.5    0.3 - 0.5% 0.7 - 1.0%  7.0 14.9
Palisade      USA 0.8-2    0.4 - 0.6% 0.1 - 0.5%  7.0  4.2
Summer        AUS 1.4-2    0.2 - 0.6%             6.8
Summit        USA 1.5-3    0.2 - 0.4% 0.1 - 0.6%  6.8  7.9
Smaragd       GER 0.4-0.8  0.8 - 1.4%             6.6
Willamette    USA 0.6-1.6  0.4 - 0.7% 0.1 - 0.3%  6.1  2.2
Hallertau     USA 0.5-1    0.6 - 1.0% 0.1 - 0.6%  6.0  2.6
Fuggle        USA 0.5-1    0.6 - 1.0% 0.1 - 0.3%  6.0  1.5
Hersbrucker   GER 0.5-1    0.5 - 1%               5.6
Ahtanum       USA 0.5-1.7  0.4 - 0.6% 0.4 - 0.7%  5.5  6.1
Kazbek        CZE 0.9-1.8  0.3 - 0.5% 0.05- 0.2%  5.4  1.7
Columbia      USA 1-2      0.2 - 0.5% 0.2 - 0.6%  5.3  6.0
Golding       USA 0.4-1    0.6 - 0.9% 0.1 - 0.3%  5.3  1.4
Magnum        GER 1.6-2.6  0.2 - 0.3%             5.3
Tettnang      USA 0.4-1    0.6 - 0.8% 0.2 - 0.4%  4.9  2.1
Hallertau     GER 1.2-1.5  0.2 - 0.5%             4.7
Spalt         GER 0.5-0.9  0.5 - 0.8%             4.6
Tettnang      GER 0.5-0.9  0.4 - 0.9%             4.6
Cluster       USA 0.5-1    0.4 - 0.8% 0.6 - 0.9%  4.5  5.6
Huell Melon   GER 0.8      0.4 - 0.7%             4.4
Perle         GER 0.5-1.5  0.2 - 0.6%             4.0
Galena        USA 1.3-2.1  0.1 - 0.3% 0.5 - 0.8%  3.4 11.1
Sladek        CZE 1-2      0.15 -0.3% 0.1 - .25%  3.4  2.6
Saaz          CZE 0.4-0.8  0.4 - 0.6% 0.1 - 0.2%  3.0  0.9
Yakima        USA 0.5-1.5  0.1 - 0.5% 0.0 - 0.2%  3.0  1.0
Helga         AUS 0.6-1    0.1 - 0.6%             2.8
Vanguard      USA 0.5-1    0.2 - 0.4% 0.1 - 0.2%  2.3  1.1

I'll repeat the warning - this is only a very crude guideline, real-world profiles may be very different.

 

[lowtones84]

Damn, you just blew my mind. I've seen some of the info you referenced, but it's gonna take me a while to dig through this stuff. Thanks!

 

[Rainy]

Cool list! This information really helps to come up with some less common hops combinations, when you think about the combining high geraniol hops with high linalool hops philosophy that Stan Hieronymous was talking about, although thiol information would also help there:

"A Japanese team brewed separate beers, one using coriander seeds and the other with Citra, to compare what happens to the essential oil geraniol in the presence of an excess of linalool during fermentation. In both beers, the geraniol was transformed into the compound beta-citronellol, which contributes to citrus and fruity flavor. Although the beer brewed with coriander had those fruity flavors, it did not have the same tropical character as the one made with Citra.


The researchers at Sapporo Breweries followed that experiment with one that examined the behavior of beta-citronellol and geraniol—again in the presence of linalool—when various different varieties were blended. They discovered, for instance, that when geraniol-rich Bravo hops are added along with Simcoe (rich in 4-mercapto-4-methyl-pentan-2-one), the beer is perceived as more flowery, citrus, and fruity.


That’s useful information, but unfortunately it does not assure that blending Chinook, or some other variety high in geraniol, with Nugget, which has more linalool than most other hops, will do the same. Our knowledge of how these low-level chemical interactions create compounds that then translate into sensory perceptions is still at a very formative stage.
...

Hops by Compound

Geraniol-rich Hops
Aurora, Bravo, Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, Citra, Mosaic, Motueka, Styrian Golding


Linalool-rich Hops
Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial, Citra, Glacier, Millennium, Mount Hood, Nugget, Pacifica, Willamette


Hops that Contain 4-mercapto-4-methylpentan-2-one (4MMP)
Apollo, Cascade, Centennial, Citra, Chinook, Cluster, Equinox, Mosaic, Simcoe, Summit"

 

[thehaze]

I started using different types of hops, from UK, DE, NZ and AUS, and I quite like them... would be the background of me posting in this thread.

I am especially taken by hops grown in Germany. My last 10 beers used lots of Brewer's Gold ( 4.5% AA ) and Comet ( 8.8% AA ) hops ( both grown in Germany ), for both bittering and aroma/flavour. I brewed a beefed up Vienna Lager using 94% Vienna + 6% Biscuit, and the two hops, with the focus being Brewer's Gold. It was not dry hopped, but had lots of late additions and 5.5 oz in the whirlpool ( 65% Brewer's Gold and 35% Comet ). It came out extremely citrussy: lots of clean, fresh citrus notes, sweet grapefruit, some grapefruit juice/peel, and obvious flowery notes in the background. Now I know Comet is originally from US, but being grown in Germany, makes it a little less grassy and " wild americana ", and more grapefruity, flowery, mellow. BG is an UK hop, but mostly grown in DE now.

I think Brewer's Gold, UK born hop, is a hop worth mentioning here. I only used the one grown in DE, and would love to get my hands on some UK grown ones.

 

[Rainy]

This study also shows how linalool and geraniol levels in the finished beers vary depending on when the hops are added. Which again helps you to make decisions in the hopping procedure.

 

[Miraculix]

Cool list! This information really helps to come up with some less common hops combinations, when you think about the combining high geraniol hops with high linalool hops philosophy that Stan Hieronymous was talking about, although thiol information would also help there:

"A Japanese team brewed separate beers, one using coriander seeds and the other with Citra, to compare what happens to the essential oil geraniol in the presence of an excess of linalool during fermentation. In both beers, the geraniol was transformed into the compound beta-citronellol, which contributes to citrus and fruity flavor. Although the beer brewed with coriander had those fruity flavors, it did not have the same tropical character as the one made with Citra.


The researchers at Sapporo Breweries followed that experiment with one that examined the behavior of beta-citronellol and geraniol—again in the presence of linalool—when various different varieties were blended. They discovered, for instance, that when geraniol-rich Bravo hops are added along with Simcoe (rich in 4-mercapto-4-methyl-pentan-2-one), the beer is perceived as more flowery, citrus, and fruity.


That’s useful information, but unfortunately it does not assure that blending Chinook, or some other variety high in geraniol, with Nugget, which has more linalool than most other hops, will do the same. Our knowledge of how these low-level chemical interactions create compounds that then translate into sensory perceptions is still at a very formative stage.
...

Hops by Compound

Geraniol-rich Hops
Aurora, Bravo, Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, Citra, Mosaic, Motueka, Styrian Golding


Linalool-rich Hops
Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial, Citra, Glacier, Millennium, Mount Hood, Nugget, Pacifica, Willamette


Hops that Contain 4-mercapto-4-methylpentan-2-one (4MMP)
Apollo, Cascade, Centennial, Citra, Chinook, Cluster, Equinox, Mosaic, Simcoe, Summit"

Wow that surely is interesting to read.

 

[Rainy]

This study also shows how linalool and geraniol levels in the finished beers vary depending on when the hops are added. Which again helps you to make decisions in the hopping procedure.

This study also made me think about the statements from Henry from Monkish about how they hop after fermentation has been finished and how they still want the beer to have a hoppy character and not be pure fruit juice and how this correlates with the results in this study where the myrcene is kept more in the beer by later dry-hopping. So my guess would be that myrcene is partly responsible for giving more this "hoppy character to the beer"

And although results from a <1g/l dry-hop and a lager yeast can definitely not be extrapolated to 20g/l dr-hop and ale yeast fermentation, the concept of myrcenen being driven off by CO2 from fermentation could likely be extrapolated.

My apologies if I pulled this conversation a bit too much off topic.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think Brewer's Gold, UK born hop, is a hop worth mentioning here. I only used the one grown in DE, and would love to get my hands on some UK grown ones.

She's not really grown in the UK any more - the only reason Germany likes her is because they like the quality of the bitterness she brings to helles. The only place I've seen with UK-grown is the heritage specialists Bushel of Hops - but even there it appears that the last time they had some for sale was their first crop in 2016. You could ask Dorothy what the story is, perhaps she could reserve some for you this year?

She's meant to be quite similar to her sister Bullion, which is fairly generally available here, but the talk of citrus rather than blackcurrant makes me that you might be more interested in things like Keyworth Early and her great-aunt Ernest, which have some neomex ancestry. I'm waiting to see if my seedlings have survived that I managed to grow from some of Dorothy's Ernest cones.

Be aware that hops from the 2018 vintage will be a bit atypical because of the heatwave - I've been playing with some 2018 Bramling Cross lately and it hardly has any blackcurrant compared to normal vintages, it's much more like its Golding parent.

@Rainy - I'd already posted the link to Takoi et al 2014, it's arguably the central paper for any discussion of this stuff. The coriander research is in the earlier Takoi et al 2010. To be honest people seem to be moving on from the terpenols, the real interest is in the more elusive thiols for the tropical flavours that are fashionable now, and in eg using enzymes to unlock a lot of the bound flavour compounds in hops.

 

[beervoid]

This study also made me think about the statements from Henry from Monkish about how they hop after fermentation has been finished and how they still want the beer to have a hoppy character and not be pure fruit juice and how this correlates with the results in this study where the myrcene is kept more in the beer by later dry-hopping. So my guess would be that myrcene is partly responsible for giving more this "hoppy character to the beer"

And although results from a <1g/l dry-hop and a lager yeast can definitely not be extrapolated to 20g/l dr-hop and ale yeast fermentation, the concept of myrcenen being driven off by CO2 from fermentation could likely be extrapolated.

My apologies if I pulled this conversation a bit too much off topic.

According to the latest podcast from the hop and brew school one doesn't need to worry about Myrcene as it's not water soluble and dissipates quickly from the kettle and finished product.

Source http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/hop-and-brew-school-ep6-hop-oil-fractions/

 

[thehaze]

Regarding Brewer's Gold and blackcurrant - I really wanted that flavour as well, but it seems the hop pairing ( and terroir I guess ) resulted in citrusy notes, which I like. The pairing also brought a sort of soft flowery note, with maybe a touch of earthiness, leaning on spicy... Anyway, I will have to re-do it at some point. I would like to brew with Bramling Cross, First Gold and East Kent Goldings, as I have a feeling this combination can result in great flavours.

I'm actually fermenting a simple Golden ale with 50% Bo Pils and 50% Vienna ( both from Weyermann ), Nottingham, Mandarina Bavaria, Comet DE and Brewer's Gold DE. No dry hopping, and this attempt is one of many to come, which have the simple purpose of making good beers, good tasting beers, with " US-like flavours ", but using cheap-"er" hops. I purchased these hops for 3 US dollars per 3.5 oz ( 100 gr ). I thought it was a great price, and while the beer fermenting smells amazing, I can barely wait to taste it when ready, to see what it can deliver.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Regarding Brewer's Gold and blackcurrant - I really wanted that flavour as well, but it seems the hop pairing ( and terroir I guess ) resulted in citrusy notes, which I like. The pairing also brought a sort of soft flowery note

That'll be the linalool.

I would like to brew with Bramling Cross, First Gold and East Kent Goldings, as I have a feeling this combination can result in great flavours.

I've expressed my love of the Goldings/BX combination in brown beers many times. Not sure about BX with FG though. Goldings/Jester is another combo that works well.

As it happens I had a play with some of the "blackcurrant" hops just the other day as either late boil or whirlpool-equivalent hop teas. Galena was an interesting one, not as strong as I'd hoped and more of a dark, "bitter" blackcurrantiness, a relationship like Morello cherries are to sweet cherries but with blackcurrant. The 2018 BX was Goldingsy and very little blackcurrant compared to usual, whereas 2017 Bullion extracted at 65C was beautifully blackcurranty.

this attempt is one of many to come, which have the simple purpose of making good beers, good tasting beers, with " US-like flavours ", but using cheap-"er" hops. I purchased these hops for 3 US dollars per 3.5 oz ( 100 gr ). I thought it was a great price, and while the beer fermenting smells amazing, I can barely wait to taste it when ready, to see what it can deliver.

I think this kind of thing is a really interesting area, both in ££/$$/€€ terms and as a scientific challenge. One of my long-term projects that I still haven't got round to is a "threequarters" NEIPA - 3/4 of the strength (so around 4%) and using hops that are <75% of the price of Citra. The likes of Apollo and Calypso may well feature, maybe Hallertau Blanc and Bullion.

 

[lowtones84]

I've expressed my love of the Goldings/BX combination in brown beers many times. Not sure about BX with FG though. Goldings/Jester is another combo that works well.

As it happens I had a play with some of the "blackcurrant" hops just the other day as either late boil or whirlpool-equivalent hop teas. Galena was an interesting one, not as strong as I'd hoped and more of a dark, "bitter" blackcurrantiness, a relationship like Morello cherries are to sweet cherries but with blackcurrant. The 2018 BX was Goldingsy and very little blackcurrant compared to usual, whereas 2017 Bullion extracted at 65C was beautifully blackcurranty.
.

I'll be brewing a pale (would call it a bitter but it's just not traditional) with Challenger bittering, but First gold as the "feature" hop with some Kent Goldings supporting very soon. I'm going to try a small whirlpool and double dryhop, the first while active fermentation is dying down. I may actually try a bit of challenger in that "biotransformation" dryhop as well. I'll report back in a little over a month.

Really looking forward to trying Jester soon as well.

 

[Rainy]

According to the latest podcast from the hop and brew school one doesn't need to worry about Myrcene as it's not water soluble and dissipates quickly from the kettle and finished product.

Source http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/hop-and-brew-school-ep6-hop-oil-fractions/

That's not really true for New England IPAs as myrcene (and other non-polar hop compunds) is held more in the beer by the protein-polyphenol complexes, as is discussed in this podcast.

They tested a bunch of comercial NEIPAs and for example found that NEIPAs had a myrcene content of 0.5ppm-2.5ppm, with an average of 1.4ppm, whereas a west coast ipa would have less than 0.3 ppm of myrcene.

But thanks for the podcast suggestion, I'll check it out as it looks really interesting.

 

[beervoid]

That's not really true for New England IPAs as myrcene (and other non-polar hop compunds) is held more in the beer by the protein-polyphenol complexes, as is discussed in this podcast.

They tested a bunch of comercial NEIPAs and for example found that NEIPAs had a myrcene content of 0.5ppm-2.5ppm, with an average of 1.4ppm, whereas a west coast ipa would have less than 0.3 ppm of myrcene.

But thanks for the podcast suggestion, I'll check it out as it looks really interesting.

Right, I forgot about that analyses.
I never get that myrcene flavor from NEIPA's though. Perhaps its under the flavor threshold.

 

[Rainy]

Right, I forgot about that analyses.
I never get that myrcene flavor from NEIPA's though. Perhaps its under the flavor threshold.

I am definitely not an expert, but some of the double dry hopped beers that have post-fermentation hopping can really smell like opening a fresh a bag of hop pellets to me, and my guess would be, that part of that is myrcene.

Also the flavour threshold for myrcene in beer is very broadly reported as 30-1000ppb, so the average of 1.4ppm in NEIPAs is still above that 1000ppb. And the really heavy dry-hopped NEIPA's (>16g/l) can definitely have a more herbal, tea like character than pure fruit juice.

But in the end I am just guessing here.

 

[beervoid]

I am definitely not an expert, but some of the double dry hopped beers that have post-fermentation hopping can really smell like opening a fresh a bag of hop pellets to me, and my guess would be, that part of that is myrcene.

Also the flavour threshold for myrcene in beer is very broadly reported as 30-1000ppb, so the average of 1.4ppm in NEIPAs is still above that 1000ppb. And the really heavy dry-hopped NEIPA's (>16g/l) can definitely have a more herbal, tea like character than pure fruit juice.

But in the end I am just guessing here.

I noticed the same. Some of the DDH beers when fresh are more grassy raw then I prefer.

 

[Rainy]

According to the latest podcast from the hop and brew school one doesn't need to worry about Myrcene as it's not water soluble and dissipates quickly from the kettle and finished product.

Source http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/hop-and-brew-school-ep6-hop-oil-fractions/

Thanks again for leading me to this podcast series. Definitely the best podcast about hops and hoppy beers out there. I went through all of it in a single weekend.
I love how in depth they go into the chemistry while still translating it into practical advices for brewers. It's like the Sour Hour (best sour beer podcast together with Milk The Funk) but for hops.
If they will bring in brewers and do episodes on specific styles or specific chemical compounds, like they're planning to, this will be the best resource for brewing hoppy beers (together with the scott janish book that's about to come out).
They really summarize a lot of the most relevant hop aroma and flavour research of the last 10 years in digestible portions.

 

[malhal]

Ok so high geraniol, low linalool cheap hops in the whirlpool (below 80C, shortish time). Expensive high myrcene (post-ferment, yeast removed, very cold) dry hop for 1 day. Got it!