Gelatin - what am I doing wrong?

[roxbob]

Hi All -

Wonder if I could get some help troubleshooting my use of Gelatin to clear my beer. I seem to be doing something wrong, as it seems to be making things worse in my case, not better. Here's what I've been doing:

- Add 1 tsp gelatin to cold water, let sit for 1 hour
- stir, and microwave until gelatin is dissolved and solution is clear
- gently pour into pre-chilled beer in corny keg and stir
- close up keg, turn on CO2 to carbonate, and wait

The result? After a week or more, I have cloudy as heck beer, and this has happened several times. Both recent batches I had kegged after long primary and cold crashing, to they were already very clear and there was little sediment etc. to get kicked up by stirirng the geletin in. I probably should have left well enough alone, as they were already pretty clear, but I was hoping to enter these in competitions and I wanted them as clear as possible - I didn't think it would make things worse.

The only thing I can think of is that I was carbonating while the gelatin was supposed to be clearing the beer. Does this all need to be done pre-carbonation? any other ideas? Frustrating to have a nice bohemian pilsner that was beautifally clear, that now looks like a hefe...

 

[Pie_Man]

I've not used gelatin myself, but I have some ideas.

1. Are you boiling the water with the gelatin in it? I don't think you're suppose to do that. This thread might help: (http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18950&start=10)
2. I would think the gelatin would settle to the bottom of the keg after 2-3 days. That will probably make the first few pull cloudy as you suck up the gelatin that's settled out. Perhaps it will clear after a couple more pints...

Appearance is a very small portion of the BJCP scoring sheet. If it were me, I'd probably just leave it alone if the beer was already beautifully clear.

 

[jhoyda]

Try chilling AFTER you put the gelatin in the beer.

 

[kombat]

It sounds like you're doing everything correctly. Here's what I do:

Cold-crash beer in carboy for 2 or 3 days first
Sprinkle 1/2 tbsp gelatin into Pyrex measuring cup containing 1 cup water.
Wait 20-30 minutes.
Microwave for 45 seconds.
Check temperature with sanitized candy thermometer
Microwave in 10-15 second increments until temperature approaches 150° F
Stir with sanitized spoon to ensure gelatin is completely dissolved
Pour solution into carboy of cold beer
Wait 3-4 more days
Rack to corney keg, leaving sediment behind, begin carbing.

This procedure has worked for me on even the cloudiest beers. No matter how cloudy a beer is, some cold storage, gelatin, and a bit of patience always seems to clear it up, eventually.

 

[roxbob]

No, I wasn't boiling after adding the gelatin - only heating enough so that it dissolved (~150-160 degrees). My understanding is that the beer needs to be as cold as possible before adding the gelatin, so that it can work on the chill haze as well as any suspended yeast, etc. Is this incorrect?

The weird thing is that the cloudiness isn't subsiding after the usual 2-3 days that everyone else seems to indicate happens with them. 1-2 weeks out form the gelatin additions, it's still cloudy. Almost like I somehow added chill haze that wasn't there before! Grr.

 

[roxbob]

Kombat - your procedure sounds almost exactly the same as mine, only I'm adding the gelatin after racking to the keg. Maybe I'll try it in the secondary the next time the way you've been doing it. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Warthaug]

I use gelain a lot. Your most likely culprit is over-heating; if over-heated it gels, forming jello. Make sure you are working with beer that is as cool as possible - this will desolubilize a lot of material that will then be picked up by the gelatin.

The method I use, which works consistently:
1) Pre-cool your beer as cold as you can get it (without freezing, obviously)
2) Measure out 1 cup of water, place in a sauce pan, and bring to a boil to sanitize.
3) Cool water to room-temp or cooler (crash-cooling is fine). Once cooled, mix in 1tbsp of gelatin. Stir with a sanitized fork or spoon, then cover and let sit 20-30min so the gelatin can 'bloom'
4) Slowly heat the gelatin (in a covered pot) to 77C (170F); do not overheat - hotter than 80C (180F) will cause the gelatin to gel. I use one of those digital probe meat thermometers to track the temp.
5) Keep the pot covered, and let it cool to room temperature. I avoid crash-cooling in water at this point, but others I know will cool in the sink.
6) Add to your fermenter/keg. Your beer should clear in 2-3 days.

If this does not clear the beer, than you likely have issues aside from normal chill haze. If all-grain brewing you may have incomplete conversion & thus suspended starch. If fermentation was incomplete you may have suspended yeast. Insufficient boiling, slow cooling of your boiled wort, or excessive transfer of break material could also account for high-than-expected cloudiness.

As Pie Man said, appearance isn't hugely important for competitions - that's not to say it isn't important to you though. Until recently I didn't keg, so I didn't worry about clarity as I had no good way of achieving it. I used to keep some fired-clay mugs around for people who had issue with my cloudy beer. These days, if anyone complains, I just tell them to piss off - really, who complains about free beer?

Bryan

 

[Pie_Man]

You may also want to calibrate your thermometer. Perhaps the water is actually hotter than your thermometer reads.

 

[tagz]

Sounds like you are doing everything correctly. My only guess is that your gelatin is getting too hot in the microwave. You could try stovetop so you can monitor temps more accurately.

 

[j33p4x4]

My method appears to be a little different from the responses you've been getting, but this is what I do. I'm using one packet of Knox gelatin in my 5-gallon keg. I've done this right after racking beer to the keg and other times after the beer has been keg'd and carb'ing for two or three days.

Nuke 3/4 to 1 cup of water in the microwave for three minutes. Set a metal spoon in there and then cover it with a paper towel and let it set for about 30 mins to cool to about 120 deg (F). Remove the paper towel, make a whirlpool with the spoon and slowly dump the gelatin in (this keeps 'chunks' from forming on the sides of the glass). Let it set for 15 mins once everything is dissolved and then dump it into the keg.

I normally have crystal clear beer in three days. I haven't had beer jello, but I normally pull half a pint or so in the subsequent days after adding the gelatin.

 

[shelly_belly]

I have better results with gelatin when I start with room temperature beer rather than with cold beer. I put 1/2 pack of prepared gelatin in an empty keg and rack the beer on top of it. The keg then usually gets conditioned for 2 weeks at room temperature. Then it goes into the keezer and put on CO2. 2 weeks later, crystal clear beer.

 

[RmikeVT]

That is some clear beer

 

[ModlrMike]

I just did a gelatin clear the other day on my Irish Red Ale. My Keurig coffee maker dispenses hot water at 165F. I took 8oz and let it sit for 5 minutes. I then took one pack of Knox and vigorously stirred it into the hot water. Once fully dissolved, I gently stirred this into my beer. The beer had already been cold crashing for 3 days which started the clearing, but also promoted the formation of chill haze. After 2 days of gelatin, the beer is crystal clear.

I didn't bloom the gelatin first, I just stirred it into the hot water. It's important not to use water above 170F, and not let it cool below 120F.

 

[roxbob]

Thanks for the advice everyone - I followed Warthaug's process a few days ago, and it seems to have worked very well on a dry-hopped RyeIPA, so I think I'm good to go!

 

[Grinz]

Don't cornelius kegs draw from the bottom? If roxbob was adding gelatin to the corny keg, it would settle the fines to the bottom and be drawn up with the beer when poured.

 

[Warthaug]

roxbob - glad it worked for you.

Grinz - that's the idea. Everything falls to the bottom, you draw it off in the first pint, and the rest of your pours are now clear. If haze lingers after the first pint, somethings gone wrong.

Bryan

 

[shelly_belly]

Don't cornelius kegs draw from the bottom? If roxbob was adding gelatin to the corny keg, it would settle the fines to the bottom and be drawn up with the beer when poured.

I cut 1+3/4" off of my dip tube. I lose 20oz of beer per keg but that 20oz is usually pretty nasty looking.

 

[Tabb]

I have a question, everyone is talking about using it in a keg. Is there a way to use it when bottling or is the gelatin dropping the yeast out so it won't carb it?
My next light beer for my wife I'd like to make sure its super clear looking because she doesn't like homebrewing because of the look.

 

[tracyk]

I use gelatin all the time and then bottle my beers. There is still enough yeast in the beer to get carbonation.

 

[Tabb]

Sweet. Time to read.

 

[Pratzie]

Alot of good info here, I wanna try this now since im moving to kegging

 

[Malric]

Has anyone tested gelatin in the fermentor?

 

[kombat]

Has anyone tested gelatin in the fermentor?

Yes, that's the only place I use gelatin.

 

[EyePeeA]

In an effort to understand the process of adding gelatin to beer more, is it really necessary to "bloom" instant gelatin powder in cold water before using? Instant types can be added as they are; others need to be soaked in water beforehand.

It's typically recommended to add gelatin to hot, but not boiling water. But why would boiling the gelatin mixture be bad? I don't think gelatin ever loses its capacity to do its job, but I might be wrong here. To me, boiling should be fine as long as you're not cooling the solution to the point where it completely gels up before pitching. Whether it is pre-boiled or not, it should still be sufficient for clearing the beer if pitched during a cold crash, no?

 

[bobbrews]

Instant types can be added as they are; others need to be soaked in water beforehand.

True, you don't need to bloom instant gelatin powder in cold water for this purpose.

why would boiling the gelatin mixture be bad? I don't think gelatin ever loses its capacity to do its job, but I might be wrong here.

Gelatin is a protein, that is, it is a polymer of amino acids joined together by peptide bonds. Perhaps the proteins responsible for clearing are denatured when brought to a boil. But I'm not sure if that last part is true, or at which what temp it may/may not occur.

Has anyone here had gelatin clearing success despite pitching a pre-boiled gelatin solution?

 

[Warthaug]

In an effort to understand the process of adding gelatin to beer more, is it really necessary to "bloom" instant gelatin powder in cold water before using?

In my experience, even the instant stuff should be bloomed. What we are doing is not normally what gelatin is used for, so following directions as-usual may not work.

Blooming the gelatin pre-hydrates the gelatin, which is critical to optimizing its activity.

It's typically recommended to add gelatin to hot, but not boiling water. But why would boiling the gelatin mixture be bad?

Gelatin is hydrolysed collagen - the protein which gives your skin strength (hydrolysed simply means its broken into pieces). The gelatin itself is somewhat schizophrenic in its chemical nature - part of it really, really, really doesn't like to be in water, part of it is water-loving. Because of this, you need to heat gelatin to get it to dissolve - the heating provides the energy to force the water-hating bits into solution. By blooming it, you pre-hydrate the water-loving bits, which then helps speed the dissolution process once you start heating.

Overheating it causes denaturation - fancy way of saying that the gelatin re-clumps, forming a hydrogel (gel filled with water). This process transforms the gelatin from the single chains of gelatin floating free in your beer (which is what we want) to clumps of jello with a limited capacity to clear your beer (which we don't want).

The reason we want those free-chains instead of a gel is that those free chains act like molecular glue, sticking together larger haze-causing proteins into clumps big enough to settle. Gelled gelatin will do a similar thing, but due to its reduced surface area in contact with the beer, will be several thousand times less effective at clearing the beer.

Bryan

 

[EyePeeA]

True, you don't need to bloom instant gelatin powder in cold water for this purpose.

That's too is what I thought. I was more concerned whether pre-boiling it harms the effectiveness of the solution.

Gelatin is a protein, that is, it is a polymer of amino acids joined together by peptide bonds. Perhaps the proteins responsible for clearing are denatured when brought to a boil. But I'm not sure if that last part is true, or at which what temp it may/may not occur.

Good point. I didn't think about proteins being denatured. I just assumed this was ground animal hooves, horns, etc. that would remain in concentration and perform their job regardless of whether they were boiled or not.

Has anyone here had gelatin clearing success despite pitching a pre-boiled gelatin solution?

I am curious about this as well. If anyone has done so, please share.

Blooming the gelatin pre-hydrates the gelatin, which is critical to optimizing its activity. The heating provides the energy to force the water-hating bits into solution. By blooming it, you pre-hydrate the water-loving bits, which then helps speed the dissolution process once you start heating.

I still don't understand. It's instant and dissolves in hot water just as easily as sugar does. Isn't it hydrated when you dissolve it in hot water prior to pitching?

Overheating it causes denaturation - fancy way of saying that the gelatin re-clumps, forming a hydrogel (gel filled with water). This process transforms the gelatin from the single chains of gelatin floating free in your beer (which is what we want) to clumps of jello with a limited capacity to clear your beer (which we don't want)..

I do understand this. But I have a hard time believing that 1/2 to 1 tsp. gelatin in 5 gallons of beer will turn anything into jello, or even jello bits. Much more would be required.

The reason we want those free-chains instead of a gel is that those free chains act like molecular glue, sticking together larger haze-causing proteins into clumps big enough to settle. Gelled gelatin will do a similar thing, but due to its reduced surface area in contact with the beer, will be several thousand times less effective at clearing the beer.

This supports your above opinion a little better. I like the science discussed here. But I have a hard time believing anything will turn to gel if you only use 1/2 to 1 tsp. gelatin for the batch sizes we typically brew.

 

[Warthaug]

I still don't understand. It's instant and dissolves in hot water just as easily as sugar does. Isn't it hydrated when you dissolve it in hot water prior to pitching?

Except that you're dissolving into water that is below the temperature you'd normally dissolve gelatin at. As such there is no guarantee it'll work. IN my experience, if not pre-bloomed even "instant" gelatin leaves the solution with a granular look.

I do understand this. But I have a hard time believing that 1/2 to 1 tsp. gelatin in 5 gallons of beer will turn anything into jello, or even jello bits. Much more would be required.

I didn't mea to imply that your keg of beer would turn into jello - but you will end up with particulates of gelatin gel. Keep in mind that the name of the the game is surface area - the more gelatin surface area you got, the more it can precipitate. Overheat and the gelatin condenses into small globules with a surface area many thousands of times smaller than unimolecular gelatin. Trust me - I've over-heated gelatin and seen the effects - you get a squishy mass of pseudo-gelatin at the bottom of your keg and cloudy beer.

This supports your above opinion a little better.

Would this be a bad time to point out that I'm a biochemistry/cell biology prof by profession and deal with solutes and mechanisms of protein interactions and aggregation all the time? My focus isn't gelatin - its protein and lipid aggregates that cause diseases such ass atherosclerosis & some forms of dementia - but the principals are universal. I.E. Its not an opinion, its the way proteins work.

Bryan

 

[EyePeeA]

Thanks for the update. The only reason I was skeptical was because I didn't bloom the gelatin I recently used and I also boiled the solution. Yesterday, the cold crash finished and I bottled the beer. It was by far the the clearest beer I've ever made and didn't see an issue with any gel globules. For my next brew, I'll try your method and compare the differences. As of now, time will tell if this level of clarity holds up in the bottles when the carbed beer is poured.