Gas Herms setup

[oylerck]

I've got two kettles 30 qts and 40qts. Planning on using a hybrid pump/gravity herms system. The pump will be lower than the boil/hlt which is on the propane burner and the mash tun/ice water reservoir will sit on a table above. There will be an immersion chiller attached to the boil kettle than can recirculate and whirlpool into the mash tun. The sparge water heat the recirculated wort, and when I sparge I will drain the mash tun into the boil kettle as well as drain the sparge out on top of the mash tun. At some point the pump will be shut off and the rest of the wort will be drained into the kettle.

The great thing about this setup is both kettles were free as well as the burner and tank. I paid for the pump and am waiting for it to arrive but so far my cost into the venture is only 136$.

If this system does not work, I have a 9 gallon Rubbermaid mash tun that I can use and just do 7.5 gallon batches. Then do a complete gravity system with the pump so I don't have to lift 7.5 gallons+ of liquid over and over.

What do you think?

 

[oylerck]

Second question is how hard will it take to hit the mash temps and keep them steady with gas recirc.

 

[day_trippr]

I think you're one vessel short of a HERMs.
Unless you can fit the entire sparge volume inside the MLT with the strike volume, you have a conflict at the boil kettle between sparge liquor leaving and mash runnings entering.

As for heat gain through a HERMs, there's a large dependency on the HEX diameter and length.
Given sufficient HEX surface area and sufficient heat input (read: HLT burner size) you can move the mash temperature quite readily....

Cheers!

 

[oylerck]

My hoses are all 1/2" and I will cut to fit.
I'm just worried about it being 10 degrees in January and trying to do this. I can retrofit an element and controller at a later date but there is a reason I got this stuff cheap. Tortuga.

I've seen 2 vessel herms w/out sparge, I just don't understand why I can't just use the 2 vessels as a sparging technique. The pump will pull fresh water from the bottom and gravity will pull the wort down from the mash tun. I understand the wort will have a little more weight but should it really effect it that quickly? I could take a gravity reading and shut off the pump when It's where I want it?

 

[oylerck]

Bump

 

[Dcpcooks]

Help me understand what your trying to do. Your going to try and maintain mash temps by recirculating the wort through a coil in your boil kettle.
When your mash is complete your going to pump all of your sparge water from th boil kettle into the mash tun, then your going to drain the mash tun back to the boil kettle. Is that correct?

If so your close to a blichmann brew easy, but not. I've not done what your trying to do so I can't speculate on how well it will work.

I have a three kettle herms and I have brewed on a brew easy. I even played around with using the boil kettle as the heat source are recirculated back to the top of the mash tun..

Your temp control will be close but not exact. It will take a bit of time for you to figure out what temps above the mash temp your water needs to be. I suspect it will be about 5-6 degrees above your mash temp.

How are you going to check your temps? You need to be able to monitor your wort coming out of the coil going back to your mash. That the temp that's important to know.

I'm not sure you will be able to get 6.5 gallons of water plus your grain in the ten gallon mash tun. I suggest you make a smash batch of a simple and inexpensive ale around 1.060 to see where your at with volumes.

 

[oylerck]

I have a maverick thermometer that I can keep in the mash tun.

Yeah, reading the brew easy sounds about right. If I take the coil out of the equation it is exactly the same.

How was the breweasy?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Breweasy works well. It's a nice compact unit. The only challenge I've seen is you need to adjust your mash PH. The thin mash can cause some challenges with PH which can lower your efficiency. So it can be tricky for a new brewer who isn't adding salts or acid yet. I know there is a thread somewhere on homebrew talk and a few you tube videos out there on the subject.

Low efficiency isn't the end of the world, you can just add a little more grain and still make great beer.

 

[oylerck]

I'm at 53% apparently so maybe it will be better than what it was

 

[oylerck]

Breweasy works well. It's a nice compact unit. The only challenge I've seen is you need to adjust your mash PH. The thin mash can cause some challenges with PH which can lower your efficiency. So it can be tricky for a new brewer who isn't adding salts or acid yet. I know there is a thread somewhere on homebrew talk and a few you tube videos out there on the subject.

Low efficiency isn't the end of the world, you can just add a little more grain and still make great beer.

So do you remember the grain capacity of the 7.5 gallon pot on the brew easy?

 

[Dcpcooks]

I do not but you can find it here: http://www.blichmannengineering.com/sites/default/files/BoilerMakerG2 Owners Manual-V1.pdf

 

[oylerck]

I do not but you can find it here: http://www.blichmannengineering.com/sites/default/files/BoilerMakerG2 Owners Manual-V1.pdf

I've read through it a couple times... so I'm assuming instead of using the blichmann limiting disconnects I can just limit the flow on the ball valves on the top of each pot (incoming) without hurting my pump because the inflow to the pump will be full flow and the reduced after at the pot.

I may just purchase an element and pid after I win the lottery, but it should be a functional build for $180 considering I paid almost nothing for the pots or burner and only for the connections. I have 12 feet of hose which was overkill, and camlocks on all connections except to the pump. I have a ph tester and will aim for around 5.5 ph 15 minutes after dough in and settle that with phosphoric acid (I believe) if not acidic enough. Then start the pump around.

I've also read it all the water is in the bottom kettle first you get better efficiency. We will probably just run it like normal first. We will see. Struggle will be hitting temps.

Starting with a simple wheat recipe to test how much grain I can hold. I'm hoping 14 lbs in the 7.5 gallon pot, but it could be pushing it. Anything over capacity I can use my big red cooler (9 gallon) for mash or I can just make a smaller batch I guess.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Place a valve on the pump outlet to regulate flow to the top of the grain bed. let it flow with some restriction to the bottom pot. You don't want it moving to fast or you'll just compact your grain bed. A valve on the outlet side will not harm a pump.

Efficiency is a combination of many things. Grain crush, water ph and mash temps. I would start simple and shoot for 152-153 for a mash temp. Sparge pal is a good cheap app for calculating strike water temps. You'll have more water than most applications so it may be a little hotter than the app's suggested temp so go slow and easy. I would get the water recirculating as your heating up to strike temps. That way you can get your flow rates set for a nice steady somewhat slow rate. Then when everything is at your strike temp shut off your pump. And close your valve from the mash tun. Dough in and stir it up to remove dough balls and let it sit for 15 min. Then slowly recirculate. I would have a very low flame going on the burner to keep things warm after you have added your grain. Remember if your bottom kettle gets hotter than your mash tun then your effectively mashing at that temp. The enzymes are floating free in the mash liquor so too hot in the bottom kettle will denature the enzymes and stop conversion. So I wouldn't play with the burner much until you get a feel for your systems capabilities.

Don't get to caught up with ph and acid adjustments to start. You really just want to get the mechanics of the system set up. Ph will change slightly over the mash and usually get lower as things go forward. Pull a sample when you start recirculating let it cool and see where your ph is. Remember it takes time to balance.

I don't see any reason why where the water is will impact efficiency. Your going to using all the water once you have begun recirculating and that will change the dynamics on the mash. A thin mash will behave different than a thick mash. And you are effectively doing both within one hour.

I used to have a 5 gallon mash tun when I first started and I was able to get enough grain for a two hearted clone in it so I'm pretty sure you'll be ok with five gallon batches in a 7.5 gallon kettle. It will be full but you should be oh.

Good luck!

 

[oylerck]

Thanks. I think the valve on the top of the pot is essentially the same thing as it is still after the pump. Should be good, thanks for your help!