Freaking acetaldehyde

[Joejkd82]

Had an ipa in primary for 4 weeks, went from 1.069 to 1.014, right on target, 5 gallon batch, pitched 2 packets of us05.

I've run into this many times before, but haven't had the issue in my last 5 batches.

It's green apple jolly rancher.

I've read a million times it's from taking the beer off the yeast too early, but that can't be right in my case.

The hydro samples taste fine until week 3 or 4, then it just gets worse with time, and develops to the same point whether i keg early or not.

My temp control isn't in yet, so this batch fermented at about 60 degrees ambient.

I brought it upstairs to 68-69 ambient and will sit on it for another week to see if that helps, but experience has taught me it's probably here to stay.

What is causing this? The only thing I can think of is my super hard well water. I typically use mostly jugs of spring water when doing extract, but use tap water when doing AG (this batch was AG). Fermentation seemed normal and my numbers were hit and the flavor doesn't come until a few weeks after the yeast are already done, so this seems unlikely.

My sanitation is excellent, and I've used this equipment before with no issues.

I want to avoid this, and my temp control package will manage actual wort temp within .5 degrees, but I don't know if this issue is temp related. I don't want to ruin any more batches.

 

[hannibalmdq]

Had an ipa in primary for 4 weeks, went from 1.069 to 1.014, right on target, 5 gallon batch, pitched 2 packets of us05.

I've run into this many times before, but haven't had the issue in my last 5 batches.

It's green apple jolly rancher.

I've read a million times it's from taking the beer off the yeast too early, but that can't be right in my case.

The hydro samples taste fine until week 3 or 4, then it just gets worse with time, and develops to the same point whether i keg early or not.

My temp control isn't in yet, so this batch fermented at about 60 degrees ambient.

I brought it upstairs to 68-69 ambient and will sit on it for another week to see if that helps, but experience has taught me it's probably here to stay.

What is causing this? The only thing I can think of is my super hard well water. I typically use mostly jugs of spring water when doing extract, but use tap water when doing AG (this batch was AG). Fermentation seemed normal and my numbers were hit and the flavor doesn't come until a few weeks after the yeast are already done, so this seems unlikely.

My sanitation is excellent, and I've used this equipment before with no issues.

I want to avoid this, and my temp control package will manage actual wort temp within .5 degrees, but I don't know if this issue is temp related. I don't want to ruin any more batches.

i know that a lot of people think Chico is Chico, be it us05, wy1056, or wlp001, but I personally think that 05 throws way more acetaldehyde than the other two, especially when it's not rehydrated, and that it takes longer to floc and clean up. Even once it's cleaned itself up I tend to find it appley, so the first part of your post made sense to me.

But then I got to the part of your post about this flavor not developing until week 3 or 4. I'm stumped. If it's not an infection, maybe it's oxidation or something in the recipe itself. Have you tried another yeast?

 

[Joejkd82]

Some extra info, the only beer i've never, ever had this problem with is northern brewer's pliny clone extract kit. I just fermented a batch in fact, 4 weeks primary 1 week keg in the exact same bucket in the same spot with the same yeast (2 packets us05) at the same temperature, and there isn't a hint of the stuff to be found, nor has there ever been.

I've had acetaldehyde issues with other extract batches. Water is the only difference, a little over 4 gallons out of 6 being spring water in the pliny clone (what i use for top up).

If water was the issue, I'd assume my mash efficiency would suffer (i got close to 80% on this batch) or my attenuation would suffer. Neither seems to be the case. What the hell am I missing?

 

[Joejkd82]

S04 and wlp550 as well as nottingham have all done it to me before.

 

[Queequeg]

I had a similar issue with Burton ale yeast

 

[JonM]

My temp control isn't in yet, so this batch fermented at about 60 degrees ambient.

This might be the problem. People cave commented about 05 getting "peachy" or fruity at low-mid 60s. I know you said green Jolly Rancher, but this might be the problem.

Also, don't assume water would affect your attenuation or efficiency. If you have too high a mash pH (which is pretty likely if you're not adding an appropriate amount of acid to the mash water) you'll get off flavors. or if there's something just funky in the water, it could itself produce the off flavor.

I'd try the next extract batch with only reverse osmosis Distilled water from the grocery store (about 30 cents a gallon) and a different yeast. Maybe 1056 with an appropriately sized starter. If your next batch is AG, try following the instructions in the water chemistry primer.

 

[bad_mo_fo]

I had the exact same problem you are having and it didn't get any better until I had control of my fermentation temperature. My basement closet sits at a constant 59-60 degrees. If I were you, and you have the capability, maybe try to ferment the first few days in your basement and move the fermenter to a warmer place to finish out. With the same yeast I start at 63 and raise the temp over the course of the week to 68. I always reach final gravity before 10 days with chico and I typically take a 1.070-1.080 down to 1.010 without any issues.

 

[SoggyWood]

I've heard anecdotal evidence suggesting that old/stale malt extract throws apple cider flavors.

 

[agrazela]

Out of curiosity, what is your hop bill?

 

[Joejkd82]

This batch was ag, not extract

Hop bill was 1oz magnum @60 min, .25oz chinook at 20 min, .75 ozwhirlpoo 15min whirlpool

Hops aren't the issue in my estimation. I'm guessing the issue is fermentation.

I moved it upstairs sunday where it is 68 and roused the yeast. Will report back friday.

Have a batch with wlp575 downstairs since saturday, think i'll move that one up.

Question: you said this went away once you got temp control. I've gotten this before after ferments that were too hot. When is it safe to ramp the temp up from 64 for 05? What is tge max it should be ramped to?

 

[khillian]

Brewers yeast produces acetaldehyde as an intermediate compound in the conversion of glucose to ethanol, so it’s found in every beer you make, at least during primary fermentation. However, in a healthy fermentation, the yeast fully converts the vast majority of this compound to alcohol so that any residual amount falls below the flavor threshold. If the fermentation is less than optimal, the conversion of acetaldehyde to alcohol may remain incomplete, and too much will remain in the final beer.

Acetaldehyde is also produced by the oxidation of ethanol (alcohol), such as may happen when exposing fermented homebrew to oxygen. It becomes even more problematic when aerobic bacteria get hold of it and metabolize this compound into acetic acid, which tastes of vinegar and is considered its own off flavor.

Acetaldehyde is usually caused by late-stage oxygenation of beer. Ethanol can pick up an oxygen atom and split off a water molecule according to the following reaction:

CH3CH2OH + 1/2O2 --> CH3CHO + H2O.


Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.

 

[Joejkd82]

Brewers yeast produces acetaldehyde as an intermediate compound in the conversion of glucose to ethanol, so it’s found in every beer you make, at least during primary fermentation. However, in a healthy fermentation, the yeast fully converts the vast majority of this compound to alcohol so that any residual amount falls below the flavor threshold. If the fermentation is less than optimal, the conversion of acetaldehyde to alcohol may remain incomplete, and too much will remain in the final beer.

Acetaldehyde is also produced by the oxidation of ethanol (alcohol), such as may happen when exposing fermented homebrew to oxygen. It becomes even more problematic when aerobic bacteria get hold of it and metabolize this compound into acetic acid, which tastes of vinegar and is considered its own off flavor.

Acetaldehyde is usually caused by late-stage oxygenation of beer. Ethanol can pick up an oxygen atom and split off a water molecule according to the following reaction:

CH3CH2OH + 1/2O2 --> CH3CHO + H2O.


Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.

Yes I've seen all that in my numerous google searches, but which is the culprit? And how? Is it feementation? If yes then what part?

I know how it works, what I don't know is how it happened in my situation.

An update toda, oddly the bucket absolutely wreaks of the stuff, but the sample doesn't have it in the flavor at all.

I think the krausen ring around the bucket is giving off the smell and the actual batch conditioned it out. The sample in my glass i sniffed 20 ir so times and i couldn't be sure if it was there.

Will have more details later this week, am going to keg it soon and see if the cold brings it back out.

Also moving my belgian Upstairs tonight.

 

[m1k3]

Two packets of US-05 should be good.

I've had this problem on big beers before i had solid temp control. The problem for me was cooler overnight temps would cause the fermenation to not clean up at the end.

Now I always ramp up the temp at the end. I try to catch it right before I see yeast flocking out on the bottom of my buckets (my buckets are just translucent enough to see it) and I ramp up a few degrees every day. The beer starts to get darker from the top down when flocking occurs.

Since doing this I don't bother to take a gravity reading until I package. This visual method works for me.

 

[bad_mo_fo]

This batch was ag, not extract

Hop bill was 1oz magnum @60 min, .25oz chinook at 20 min, .75 ozwhirlpoo 15min whirlpool

Hops aren't the issue in my estimation. I'm guessing the issue is fermentation.

I moved it upstairs sunday where it is 68 and roused the yeast. Will report back friday.

Have a batch with wlp575 downstairs since saturday, think i'll move that one up.

Question: you said this went away once you got temp control. I've gotten this before after ferments that were too hot. When is it safe to ramp the temp up from 64 for 05? What is tge max it should be ramped to?

With properly hydrated 05 I would say between day 3 and day 4. I usually start moving the temp up between day 2 and 3 but I am using liquid yeast with a starter. Fermentation seems to move quicker for me with 1056/001 as opposed to 05.

 

[aprichman]

Brewers yeast produces acetaldehyde as an intermediate compound in the conversion of glucose to ethanol, so it’s found in every beer you make, at least during primary fermentation. However, in a healthy fermentation, the yeast fully converts the vast majority of this compound to alcohol so that any residual amount falls below the flavor threshold. If the fermentation is less than optimal, the conversion of acetaldehyde to alcohol may remain incomplete, and too much will remain in the final beer.

Acetaldehyde is also produced by the oxidation of ethanol (alcohol), such as may happen when exposing fermented homebrew to oxygen. It becomes even more problematic when aerobic bacteria get hold of it and metabolize this compound into acetic acid, which tastes of vinegar and is considered its own off flavor.

Acetaldehyde is usually caused by late-stage oxygenation of beer. Ethanol can pick up an oxygen atom and split off a water molecule according to the following reaction:

CH3CH2OH + 1/2O2 --> CH3CHO + H2O.


Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.

That's some impressive copy and paste skills you have.

https://beerandbrewing.com/VJmwUisAALkq3055/article/off-flavor-of-the-week-acetaldehyde

 

[khillian]

Figured I'd copy and paste to save time

Keg the batch and see if the aroma/flavor persists. 4 weeks, it's def done, it's a long time, too long in my IPA process. Oxidation IMHO is the biggest problem homebrewers have and it doesn't always present itself as cardboard/paper.

In 7 years of brewing I have had (2) batches that were acetaldehyde bombs. One was a Wee Heavy that had oak cubes sitting in a secondary carboy with the dreaded orange caps. Those things let in oxygen, after 2 months I had weird white spots, I kegged it anyway, green jolly rancher beer, dumped it. So that case was oxidation and/or infection of some sort from the oak.

The other recent time was a hoppy lager with 2 packets of Fermentis 34/70. I rushed the batch and might have over oxygenated.

So the key is its a precursor in fermentation so healthy steady fermentation should clean it up. The other side is post fermentation avoiding oxygen/infections.

I think it's impossible for us to solve this for you :/ over the Internet. We can only point out the causes/methods to avoid, not why this particular batch developed that off flavor/aroma.

 

[tagz]

The most likely culprit is yeast stress. Did you aerate properly? Did the temp fluctuate at all when you brought it upstairs (thermostat set to drop at night)? It's also possible that your initial temps were too low and the yeast quit before finishing the cleanup. By the time you brought it upstairs they may have flocced out.