First Water Adjustment Attempt Help

[Bigarcherynut]

A while back I had my water tested by Ward Laboratories. I posted my results on the "All Grain" forum looking for help on what next to do. I was lead to a couple of different water calculators and ended up using Bru'n Water. I decided to post the results of my first attempt at correcting my water and was hoping for some feedback/input.

I have attached the results from Ward Labs.

Here are my first corrections. I made the profile a Brown Full and the grain bill is for a Buffalo Sweat Cream Stout. The majority of beers I brew are porters and stouts so I’m hoping this works for this style of beers.

I’m using a 50 percent dilution with RO water due to my high hardness.
I’m adding:
.2 grams per gal of Gypsum
.2 grams per gal of Canning salt
.82 ml per gal Lactic acid


Water Profile – Calcium – Mag – Sodium – Sulfate – Chloride - Bicarbonate
Brown Full - 50 5 27 50 60 85
Existing Water 91 46 7 24 11 458
Mashing Profile 58 23 28 42 40 86

Estimated Mash Ph – 5.47

Thanks for your input and advice.

 

[mabrungard]

Wow! That is hard water. It would drop a pile of chalk if boiled, but the Mg would remain. Your choice to dilute is appropriate.

Do recognize that you will have to fiddle with the alkalinity of the mashing water to conform to the needs of your grain bill. You also need to acidify that diluted water to make it more suitable for sparging.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Wow! That is hard water. It would drop a pile of chalk if boiled, but the Mg would remain. Your choice to dilute is appropriate.

Do recognize that you will have to fiddle with the alkalinity of the mashing water to conform to the needs of your grain bill. You also need to acidify that diluted water to make it more suitable for sparging.

As for fiddling are you referring to the different beers I'll brew? I figured I would have to customize each if it calls for it.

As for the sparge, I do BIAB and I have not used a sparge yet. I squeeze the grains with a homemade press and have had good luck hitting my numbers.

Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

The hardness isn't the bad guy here. It is the alkalinity at 7.5 mEq/L - way too much. You have 4.55 mEq/L calcium to off set it. To work with this water you would have to dilute it at least 7:1 with RO in order to get the alkalinity down under the maximum desired level of 1 (though you can neutralize more than 1 with acid). If you are going to dilute with 7 or more parts RO you might as well go whole hog and use 100% RO thus giving yourself complete independence from probable rather substantial temporal variations in your source's composition and total control over your liquor's mineral content. As the magnesium is quite high here you will benefit by dilution or 100% RO from that POV as well.

The alternative is to supplement the calcium until it also at 7.5 mEq/L or even a bit more and then add lime to raise the pH to about 10. This will cause Mg(OH)2 to precipitate. Decant the clear water off the precipitate and 'neutralize' the lime with more tap water. CaCO3 will precipitate until you have about 1 mEq/L each of calcium and alkalinity and the Mg++ should be at a much more manageable 23 mg/L or so. This is clearly much more complex than RO as a pH meter is practically speaking required and you really would need to do alkalinity and Ca and Mg hardness tests upon completion to see how much you got rid of.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

that water is perfect for gardens by the way, plants love calcium and magnesium and you have plenty of both

 

[Bigarcherynut]

The hardness isn't the bad guy here. It is the alkalinity at 7.5 mEq/L - way too much. You have 4.55 mEq/L calcium to off set it. To work with this water you would have to dilute it at least 7:1 with RO in order to get the alkalinity down under the maximum desired level of 1 (though you can neutralize more than 1 with acid). If you are going to dilute with 7 or more parts RO you might as well go whole hog and use 100% RO thus giving yourself complete independence from probable rather substantial temporal variations in your source's composition and total control over your liquor's mineral content. As the magnesium is quite high here you will benefit by dilution or 100% RO from that POV as well.

The alternative is to supplement the calcium until it also at 7.5 mEq/L or even a bit more and then add lime to raise the pH to about 10. This will cause Mg(OH)2 to precipitate. Decant the clear water off the precipitate and 'neutralize' the lime with more tap water. CaCO3 will precipitate until you have about 1 mEq/L each of calcium and alkalinity and the Mg++ should be at a much more manageable 23 mg/L or so. This is clearly much more complex than RO as a pH meter is practically speaking required and you really would need to do alkalinity and Ca and Mg hardness tests upon completion to see how much you got rid of.

Ok, I understand some of what you are saying but I'm lost to a point. I made my adjustments from the program Bru'n Water and felt with the dilution of my water with 50% RO and what I added got my water pretty close to the profile I was shooting for.

I'm not sure how to attach the actual Bru'n Water spreadsheet I took a picture of my sheet so you could actually see what I'm doing. After you review the spreadsheet do you feel I'm still way off? I felt I was pretty good but I'm new to this.

Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm pointing out that your water has 7.5 mEq/L alkalinity which is going to be a disaster for virtually all beers. Cutting this water 1:1 with RO will reduce the alkalinity to 3.75 mEq/L which is still too much. You would need about 3.4 mEq/L to neutralize that level of alkalinity to mash pH and then you would need additional acid for most other beers to set the malt pH appropriately. This is really, at first blush, throw away water. Use RO water instead unless you want to undertake lime softening for which it is a good candidate because the other mineral content is modest with the exception of magnesium hence the need for the 'split' treatment to dump some of that magnesium.

It's going to be much simpler to use straight RO with a little calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate. There is no need to hit a particular profile. Use 2 grams of calcium chloride per 5 gal RO water and add gypsum to taste in subsequent batches based on taste tests with the calcium chloride only beer.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I'm pointing out that your water has 7.5 mEq/L alkalinity which is going to be a disaster for virtually all beers. Cutting this water 1:1 with RO will reduce the alkalinity to 3.75 mEq/L which is still too much. You would need about 3.4 mEq/L to neutralize that level of alkalinity to mash pH and then you would need additional acid for most other beers to set the malt pH appropriately. This is really, at first blush, throw away water. Use RO water instead unless you want to undertake lime softening for which it is a good candidate because the other mineral content is modest with the exception of magnesium hence the need for the 'split' treatment to dump some of that magnesium.

It's going to be much simpler to use straight RO with a little calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate. There is no need to hit a particular profile. Use 2 grams of calcium chloride per 5 gal RO water and add gypsum to taste in subsequent batches based on taste tests with the calcium chloride only beer.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. The corrections I made using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet corrects most of my water issues but does not address or correct alkalinity? If that is correct now I understand the need for 100% RO water. I'm new at this so it's taking a bit to understand everything. I was looking at the Bicarbonate level thinking that was my hardness to get down. Missed the alkalinity part. Surprised the program doesn't tell you that alkalinity adjustments are not included in the spreadsheet.

Currently looking at RO filter systems I could use for brewing and also water to my kitchen for drinking.

Thanks much for your help.

 

[ajdelange]

There are really only two problems with your water. The first is that it is way too alkaline and the second is that its magnesium level is pretty high. It is also pretty hard. A 1:1 dilution with RO will get the calcium concentration to right where it ought to be according to many authors and will reduce the magnesium concentration to a manageable level but it will not reduce the alkalinity sufficiently. If you wish to only dilute 1:1 then you will have to allocate an additional 3.4 mEq of acid to neutralize the remaining alkalinity. And you would have to be careful about adding chloride or sulfate as the calcium salts because the diluted calcium is at about 45 mg/L. A more sensible approach is further dilution that 1:1 and this is driven mostly by the alkalinity.

I can't comment on what you are doing with Bru'n water because it handles alkalinity in a non standard way and I can't look at a Bru'n water spreadsheet and 'see the picture'. If you have diluted 1:1 and added 3.4 mEq/L acid for the water plus whatever is necessary for the grain then you have done the right thing. If you just dilute then that is not sufficient.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

There are really only two problems with your water. The first is that it is way too alkaline and the second is that its magnesium level is pretty high. It is also pretty hard. A 1:1 dilution with RO will get the calcium concentration to right where it ought to be according to many authors and will reduce the magnesium concentration to a manageable level but it will not reduce the alkalinity sufficiently. If you wish to only dilute 1:1 then you will have to allocate an additional 3.4 mEq of acid to neutralize the remaining alkalinity. And you would have to be careful about adding chloride or sulfate as the calcium salts because the diluted calcium is at about 45 mg/L. A more sensible approach is further dilution that 1:1 and this is driven mostly by the alkalinity.

I can't comment on what you are doing with Bru'n water because it handles alkalinity in a non standard way and I can't look at a Bru'n water spreadsheet and 'see the picture'. If you have diluted 1:1 and added 3.4 mEq/L acid for the water plus whatever is necessary for the grain then you have done the right thing. If you just dilute then that is not sufficient.

Thanks for your input on this. I was hoping to get some help with using the Bru'n Water software. This is the program most people on this site directed me to.

Thanks and I'll keep asking about the program.