First time adjusting brewing salts

[Izzie1701]

I use RO water as my city seems to adjust the mineral content of our water regularly in there released tests. Seems like every month it's different and by quite a bit. I also have a water softener so not sure how much that effects the mineral content. I would assume a ton. Anyway I use RO water from Safeway. I would assume all its parameters would be 0 except ph. This I will test next time I get water and adjust with lactic acid. Anyway wanted to confirm if this seemed correct for my additions to get my water as per Dublin Ireland for a Guinness Stout clone. I had it set to 19L and then will mix all minerals and salts prior to mashing? The additional water I will just leave as tap water for now and only worry about the mash water and the little bit I get of my batch sparge. The rest of the batch sparge top off water would be tap water unless someone thinks that will make a big difference as well?


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[Yooper]

First, don't use chalk. It doesn't dissolve properly.

Instead of trying to hit a "profile" of a certain city, I'd try to get a proper mash pH of 5.2 (great for a dry stout) to 5.5. Remember that the water in Dublin isn't what is used for Guiness anyway, so trying to hit a water profile in the city doesn't mean the water will be the way the brewery's water is.

Which water spreadsheet are you using? I've had really inaccurate guestimates from EZ water, but pretty good estimates from bru'nwater and sometimes from Brewer's Friend.

I wouldn't use any gypsum at all for a dry stout, but calcium chloride would be great. You could bring the chloride up to 50 ppm or more, and increase the calcium at the same time.

 

[JonM]

Agreed that you shouldn't use chalk but I'm a little curious that the software would be telling you to add 8 g of chalk plus some baking soda. Both of those things are used to raise mash pH, and it seems to be suggesting a LOT of them. I wonder if maybe some of your inputs are off? Like maybe you've accidentally selected "acid malt" instead of crystal malt (I've done that more times than I'd like to admit!) or maybe your Lovibond numbers are off?

 

[Izzie1701]

This was from Brewers friend. My ph has been consistently at 5.2 for all my batches but this will be by first dark beer. It also has so acid malt in it so want to see where this puts my ph once I plug my grain bill into the calculators. I'm assuming I will need to adjust this.

Is there a house hold name calcium chloride goes by. My lhbs didn't carry it. Just chalk and gypsum. I kno mag chloride is Epsom salt and sodium chloride is table salt (kosher non iodized) but not sure on calcium chloride.

 

[Yooper]

Agreed that you shouldn't use chalk but I'm a little curious that the software would be telling you to add 8 g of chalk plus some baking soda. Both of those things are used to raise mash pH, and it seems to be suggesting a LOT of them. I wonder if maybe some of your inputs are off? Like maybe you've accidentally selected "acid malt" instead of crystal malt (I've done that more times than I'd like to admit!) or maybe your Lovibond numbers are off?

I'm sure it's to get the HCO3 level to a "profile" of the water- the mash pH doesn't even show in that snapshot.

Remember, you only need as much alkalinity as you need to hit your mash pH. Adding that much will probably not make good beer, since it will raise the mash pH pretty high. Well, it really won't since the chalk won't dissolve, so in this case it's a good thing, but normally you want to hit a mash pH, not an arbitrary amount of bicarbonate/alkalinity.

 

[Yooper]

This was from Brewers friend. My ph has been consistently at 5.2 for all my batches but this will be by first dark beer. It also has so acid malt in it so want to see where this puts my ph once I plug my grain bill into the calculators. I'm assuming I will need to adjust this.

Is there a house hold name calcium chloride goes by. My lhbs didn't carry it. Just chalk and gypsum. I kno mag chloride is Epsom salt and sodium chloride is table salt (kosher non iodized) but not sure on calcium chloride.

It's not right to add bicarbonate to raise the pH, and then add acid malt to lower it. That's using them for cross-purposes.

First, look at the mash pH without ANY additions. Then, use the additions needed (either acid malt, OR baking soda) to hit the mash pH. You can add calcium chloride to provide a "roundness" of flavor.

You don't want gypsum, in my opinion. If you can't find CaCl2, you may find it in the grocery store for making pickles.

 

[PeteNMA]

Epsom salt is Magnesium Sulfate, not chloride

 

[Izzie1701]

It's not right to add bicarbonate to raise the pH, and then add acid malt to lower it. That's using them for cross-purposes.



First, look at the mash pH without ANY additions. Then, use the additions needed (either acid malt, OR baking soda) to hit the mash pH. You can add calcium chloride to provide a "roundness" of flavor.



You don't want gypsum, in my opinion. If you can't find CaCl2, you may find it in the grocery store for making pickles.

Ok now I'm confused. With adding no salts and using RO water I'm hitting a ph of 5.23 so perfect. Why then would you ever add salts or gypsum or chalk. I thought the hardness of the water played a roll in the flavour of beer? This is all confusing me now.

 

[Izzie1701]

Also I thought the acid malt was being added for the lactic acid to give it that Guinness sourness not to adjust the ph. But if I do add salts and chalk my ph jumps to 5.78 so too high. Why even shoot for a water profile then? Do you always ignore this and just shoot for the ph?

 

[hotwatermusic]

The most important parameter in water chemistry is pH. You can tailor your brewing water for taste but the pH trumps it all. Chalk had been the popular method of raising pH for years but is in fact ineffective. Baking soda is better but it is sodium bicarbonate and so will add sodium. Since you are using RO water that shouldn't be a concern. You can also use sodium hydroxide(scary). Those all will raise pH to varying effect.
Acid malt generally isn't used for it's flavor contribution. Gypsum lends a drying quality to your beer and accentuates hop character. Epsom salt works in much the same way. Calcium Chloride will enhance maltiness. These will all lower your pH.
I personally feel the idea of targeting a city profile is fading. Your favorite craft brewer is probably not filling the mash tun straight from the tap and I doubt any of these famous and historic breweries did either.
A profile based on style is more appropriate but even that has limitations because I may use a different grist for an IPA than you and we would want to compensate in different ways.
As I said focus on pH first. Then work within that limit and adjust for flavor. Ultimately it's like everything else in brewing and the amount of variations and permutations of all sorts are endless as are the ways to resolve issues. Start simple and build up to the perfect beer it's better than getting lucky anyway. Although the lucky ones taste good too.

 

[JonM]

Palmer's "Water" book does a great job of demystifying a lot of this stuff.

 

[Yooper]

Gypsum and sodium chloride and calcium chloride are salts.

So, think of it this way. You use salt to season your food- the same is true of beer in this way. Gypsum salts can enhance the "dryness" of a beer, while calcium chloride enhances sweetness, or rather a 'fullness' of flavor in the beer. Magnesium can bring a "sour" flavor in large amounts, etc. Just like salt and pepper and oregano in cooking.

The other use for salts is to bring up the calcium level in the beer. It's not necessary, but it does help the yeast to flocculate better so a recommended amount for calcium is 50-90 ppm or so. You can get that by using calcium chloride, which will increase both the calcium and the chloride, so that's useful for malty beers in particular.

This is a good read for starting to learn about what these ions bring to a beer: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge Scroll down a bit for specifics on calcium, chloride, etc.

 

[curtw]

Also, note that the water spreadsheet in BrewersFriend doesn't *tell* you what salts/acids/etc. to add. It just tells you what the *effect* of your additions might make.

I just change the values for my additions until I get a mash pH, a "bitterness" profile (SO4 / Cl ratio), and appropriate "Range Check" values for the various minerals that I'm looking for.