First sour from a bit of Belgian Dark Strong Ale?

[Brewitt]

I guess I wrote this post on my iPhone using dictation. Dumb idea with all the specialized words. Lets try this again.

I am going to attempt my first sour this weekend along with my first Belgian Dark Strong Ale. My thinking is to siphon off a gallon of the ~1.1 OG wort and dilute that about 40% with water, then inoculate that with my wlp530 Belgian ale yeast and the stepped up dregs from a bottle of Oud Beersel Oude Kriek. The dregs have plenty of Lactobacillus, Pediococcus, and Brett. The wort is 12% Belgian Candi sugar and the rest pilsner and specialty grains.

Any comments are welcome?

 

[Brewitt]

The above post has been edited so that it makes sense. I have noticed that making sense is useful when asking people for their input.

 

[lowtones84]

Sounds like a good method to try to me. Just be prepared to sit on it for a while!

 

[Brewitt]

Planning on 18 mos. may pitch dregs of a haansens Kriek after 6 months depending in the flavor. Wish I wasn't excited. Takes patience.

 

[Brewitt]

Wow, I had underestimated to amount of blowoff this BDSA, and the sour derived from the diluted wort, were going to make. Crazy, I had about 3/4 liter of sanitizer water in a 2 liter container for each of them. They both overflowed. I just boosted them to a gallon for overflow. Hopefully that doesn't happen again. Vigorous fermentation of WLP530, to say the least. Of course, the wort is 12% Belgian Candi Syrup. Very fermentable!

 

[Brewitt]

Two weeks into this experiment I have transferred the diluted portion of this belgian dark strong ale to the secondary. It was pitched with equal amounts of a starter of WLP530 and and a starter from the oude kriek. The attenuation of this thing was an astonishing like 93%, giving me an FG of 1.004! Crazy. Now I'm concerned that there is not enough left for the bugs to sour up. The beer is dry and not particularly flavorful with belgian overtones and a bit of brett funk. My intention is to let this sit for a few months and see where it goes before pitching more dregs and potentially adding some fruit. However, I am wondering whether I should add another half gallon or so of some of the parent beer which is currently at 1.020 and 10% ABV to give it more to munch on? That beer is a bit sweet and bursting with belgian yeast, malt and caramel flavors. Any thoughts from sour brewers is welcome.

 

[lowtones84]

Nice. What was the OG, or at least roughly? Sounds awesome.

 

[Brewitt]

Nice. What was the OG, or at least roughly? Sounds awesome.

Right around 1.060. About 20 IBU.

 

[lowtones84]

Cool. I'm no expert but I think even 1.004 is enough for bugs to munch on. I had a saison that went down to 1.002 before any brett was added. Added brett to 1 gallon of it in a 1 gallon secondary and it developed considerable brett character over 3 months. As for souring bugs and stuff I don't really know though.

 

[Brewitt]

Well, I'll get a chance to experiment. I have two three gallon bottles, so my intent is to pull a few gallons of wort from my next mash (probably a hoppy wheat or an APA) before adding hops and boil that separately for my next sour (I have two propane burners now . What's difficult is that I will have no clue what to expect from these things until at least six months or so. I'm flying by the seat of my pants.

 

[lowtones84]

Sounds fun to me! Wish I was in a place that I knew I was going to be for a few years so I could start up a couple of lambics and/or Flander's reds or browns.

 

[Brewitt]

Update on my first sour. I guess so far it is like an Oude Bruin since I started with a diluted Dark Strong Ale wort. In fact, the dark strong ale went into bottles today. At bottling it tastes fantastic and is 11.3% ABV.

After starting the sour with a mix of WLP530 and the expanded dregs of a bottle of Oud Beersel Oude Kriek, at 4 weeks I added the dregs of a bottle of Hannsens Artisinal Kriek. It has now been about six weeks since I started and I have a white pellicle (I'll post a picture when I get a chance).

My grape vines had a lot of ripe black table grapes (some concord-like variety) so I decided to add some. It's probably a bit premature and I'm not at all sure what these grapes will do for it, but then I decided it couldn't hurt. They have a reasonably robust grape juice flavor, usually one big seed and a relatively leathery skin. I presume most of the grape flavor is in the skin so I picked right about a gallon, 6 lbs, and after washing first with cold water then briefly with very hot tap water, I drained them and gave them a light crushing with a potato masher. I just dropped that right into my 2 gallons of beer gave it a light swirl and closed it back up. Hopefully the tannin from the grapes will not come out in a big way. I suspect that more likely I will just not get much flavor from it at all. I intended to flush it with CO2 but my tank is empty. Of course, the pellicle is no longer there but I presume I will get a new one soon.

Let's see if I can be patient and not touch it for a few months. I do intend to rack it off the grapes after a couple months and rack it on to some more acidic and pungent fruit. Berries would be optimal but sour cherries might be good too.

 

[Brewitt]

Another update: I was sampling an IPA and a Saison I have brewing so I decided to take a thief full of my oud bruin with Concord grapes and check the SG. I was shocked when I pulled the thief at the glowing pinkish orange glow and how nearly clear the liquor under the bed of fruit and funk was. It was at 5.5% brix which I don't really know what to do with since I don't know how much sugar I added in the grapes. The aroma is sour fruit, dry wine and a bit phenolic. The tAste is tart, fruity, dry red wine, phenol and maybe a touch of Brett. Not perfect but not bad. Somewhat like a mild Dutchess de Burgogne. I closed it up and will give it another 3 mos before another sample.

 

[Brewitt]

I failed to mention in the above post that I have an off flavor in the finish that I would characterize as organic solvent or plastic. I is not ethyl alcohol. I'm not sure if it is some other fusel alcohol because of my lack of experience with it. Someone suggested to me that if it is fusel alcohol, aging on oak might help. Does anyone have any input on the source and how to deal with this other than just giving it time?

 

[Brewitt]

I am getting some accumulation on the top of my sour that looks suspiciously like mold but it doesn't seem to be fuzzy. On the other hand it could be a bacterial pellicle mixed with my nasty looking grape sludge. I welcome any opinions about what it is and whether I should do something about it.

 

[Brewitt]

Well, took another sample by dipping the thief through the grape sludge a couple weeks ago. Still came out a glowing pink with orange overtones. This time a little cloudy with a few flakes of the white biofilm mixed in. Overall very nice looking. Nose is sour fruit and beer with a brett funk. Taste is much mellower than last time. Still the nice sour wine-like flavor. Phenol/fusel alcohol that was a bit overwhelming last time has given way to a significant horsey Brett finish. It's just hitting 6 mos. I have no idea how I will decide its done. It was down in the single digits before I added the grapes. I have no idea how much gravity the grapes added but they have been in there a few months and I haven't taken another gravity. Probably time to do that. Still thinking about some oak chips. Otherwise its just sit and wait.

 

[Brewitt]

I think it's done. Racked and went 9 more mos in fermenter. Moderate powdery purple pellicle with some lumpiness. Wine thief still managed to pull a clean sample. Brett nose and overtones, pungent sourness and some bitter on the finish. Beautifully rusty color. Nice clarity. Now need to figure out how much carb and what bottles.

 

[Brewitt]

The pellicle

 

[Brewitt]

I finally bottled my sour at 19 mod after pitching. I'm calling it a Flemish Red with Grapes. I ended up with 2 gallons to which I added 2 oz sucrose (2.7 volumes) and a bit of WLP001 slurry. I put it into 19 12 oz bottles and capped with regular caps. I will put it down for about a month to let carb before tasting. Well, I did taste what I bottled. I am loving it. The harshness is all gone. Funk and bracing sourness. Beautiful color.

I'm including a couple pics of the pellicle at bottling time along with the final liquor before carbonation.