First Mexican Lager, need some clarification

[Rob2010SS]

Looking to do my first Mexican Lager this weekend. There are some things I am unsure of.

1. The lagering phase - how long does this need to be? I have it going for 4 - 6 weeks in my recipe sheet. Is that necessary?

2. I also have it scheduled to transfer to a secondary container. Is this necessary?

3. Can the lagering just be done in the serving keg for the required amount of time and once the lagering phase is complete, tap the keg...?

I have attached my brew day sheet with the recipe. Any other critiques are welcome. I have corn sugar in there but not sure if I should pull that and just add more grain....?

Thanks.

 

[Upthewazzu]

1.) It needs to be as long as it needs to be ;-). But seriously, I start tasting my lagers after 1 week of lagering. Some only need a couple weeks, some need 4+.

2.) No

3.) Yep! This is what I do. After about 3 weeks of primary fermentation, it goes straight into the keg. I put it on pressure, toss it in the frdge and wait.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Ok, another dumb question. What is the lagering phase doing? How do you know when it's "ready"?

 

[Upthewazzu]

Most lager yeasts are not very flocculant, meaning they stay in suspension for a longer time. Lagering is basically just cold aging the beer. Yeast will eventually drop out (I use gelatin to help them along) and flavors will mellow.

 

[kh54s10]

Ok, another dumb question. What is the lagering phase doing? How do you know when it's "ready"?

Can't say what it is actually doing. But when it is ready, IMO, is when you drink one and like it, then drink another one and it is essentially the same. How long that takes is dependent on the recipe and other brewing factors as well as your taste. There is no "set time".

 

[jmcquesten]

Looking to do my first Mexican Lager this weekend. There are some things I am unsure of.

1. The lagering phase - how long does this need to be? I have it going for 4 - 6 weeks in my recipe sheet. Is that necessary?

2. I also have it scheduled to transfer to a secondary container. Is this necessary?

3. Can the lagering just be done in the serving keg for the required amount of time and once the lagering phase is complete, tap the keg...?

I have attached my brew day sheet with the recipe. Any other critiques are welcome. I have corn sugar in there but not sure if I should pull that and just add more grain....?

Thanks.

Just curious, what beer are you shooting for? Corona? Modelo especial? XX lager?

I made a Negra Modelo (type) Mexican lager and it was very good. Keg kicked way before my cinco de mayo celebration. Ended up making another batch, but 2 kegs worth this time. Lagering can be as quick as 2 to 3 weeks for a beer like this if you do it right and maybe hit it with gelatin.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Just curious, what beer are you shooting for? Corona? Modelo especial? XX lager?

I made a Negra Modelo (type) Mexican lager and it was very good. Keg kicked way before my cinco de mayo celebration. Ended up making another batch, but 2 kegs worth this time. Lagering can be as quick as 2 to 3 weeks for a beer like this if you do it right and maybe hit it with gelatin.

My wife likes Corona as her go to beer when she just wants something easy to drink. So that's what I'm shooting for with this.

Anyone see a problem with the corn sugar in the recipe?

 

[jmcquesten]

My wife likes Corona as her go to beer when she just wants something easy to drink. So that's what I'm shooting for with this.

Anyone see a problem with the corn sugar in the recipe?

The amount of sugar seems a little high, but I haven't made that beer and can't find much as far as an accurate Corona clone for reference.
I might dial it back to 5% and make up the difference with pilsner malt. Pilsner and corn at 80/20 or 85/15 might get you close, and if you're wanting to dry it out mash at 150.

Also, I like to ferment for around 10-14 days, then let free rise to room temperature (68 ish) and let it sit for 4-5 days for a diacetyl rest, then transfer to keg and pressurize before dropping temperature to mid 30s for lagering. I like to lager under pressure to get carbonation started. If I can hold out 3 weeks, I then disconnect gas from keg, release the pressure, and inject the gelatin in through the gas post. After 5 days with gelatin (very cold), I pressure transfer to a serving keg. At that point it's crystal clear, carbonated and ready to drink. Every week it gets a little better, then it's gone....

 

[jmcquesten]

This is a helpful setup for getting gelatin into a keg with introducing a bunch of oxygen.

 

[FunkedOut]

1. No, but it can make the beer better.
2. No.
3. Yes.

Your recipe has 2 weeks in primary at 52*F (I use 50*F for that yeast).
Then D-rest for 3 days at 62*F (I use 68*F).
Then rack to secondary (I skip this altogether).
Then drop 5*F per day down to 40*F (I use 32*F).

^That will get you 3-4 weeks until you rack to your serving keg.
Set it to your desired carbonation (I like 2.7 volumes for Mex) and wait a week or two.

Tap it like Sammy Davis.
It will be delicious.
Right before it kicks, it will be even more delicious. Then you can decide how long you want to wait for the lagering phase the next time you brew it (I don't bother depriving myself if I need a keg).

 

[Rob2010SS]

Alright. I tweaked it a bit. I took out the corn sugar and added some carapils and adjust temps to be more in line with what @FunkedOut posted. Definitely curious to see how this comes out. Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[imasickboy]

That looks delicious. So delicious, in fact, that I'm going to brew the same beer, since I have every single one of those ingredients on hand right now.

 

[Rob2010SS]

That looks delicious. So delicious, in fact, that I'm going to brew the same beer, since I have every single one of those ingredients on hand right now.

Let me know how it comes out for you. I just picked up the ingredients tonight. My lhbs didn't have wlp940 so he recommended saflager 139 as a replacement, so i grabbed that. I also grabbed wakatu hops in addition to the saaz hops. Not sure which one I'm going to use yet

 

[DaveDiedDancing]

This is a helpful setup for getting gelatin into a keg with introducing a bunch of oxygen. View attachment 569265View attachment 569266

jmcquesten that is brilliant and I wish I came up with it. Dumb question- where do you get a syringe like that? Also, what is the name of the piece it is connected to, is that just a male QD? Thank you.

 

[FunkedOut]

That looks delicious. So delicious, in fact, that I'm going to brew the same beer, since I have every single one of those ingredients on hand right now.

And don't forget you have a bottle of mine headed your way! Mine is a bit different, but in the ballpark.

Let me know how it comes out for you. I just picked up the ingredients tonight. My lhbs didn't have wlp940 so he recommended saflager 139 as a replacement, so i grabbed that. I also grabbed wakatu hops in addition to the saaz hops. Not sure which one I'm going to use yet

If you're talking about saflager 189, fermentis recommends a temp range of 53.6*F - 59*F. You might want to plan to 54*F or 55*F?
Never had any wakatu, but I'm a sucker for hallertau. I use liberty for my mex.

 

[jmcquesten]

jmcquesten that is brilliant and I wish I came up with it. Dumb question- where do you get a syringe like that? Also, what is the name of the piece it is connected to, is that just a male QD? Thank you.

The syringe came from Amazon. I think the half cup water/tspn gelatin comes in at around 110 mL, so I went with a 150 ml sized syringe. There's a small piece of racking tubing hose clamped to the tip of the syringe, followed by a swivel fitting (flare fitting) that connects to the grey gas ball lock post.

 

[Rob2010SS]

So i brewed this yesterday and everything went awesome, until i pitched yeast.

I chilled to 60F, oxygenated with the wand, and pitched 1 packet of saflager 189. It's been a long time since i used dry yeast without doing a starter so i pitched the yeast and sealed it up and stuck it in the gem l fermentation chamber at 50F. 3 hours later i go to check on it and see that i forgot to swirl the carboy and mix in the dry yeast. The yeast was sitting on top of a bit of foam that was still on top of the beer.

I then swirled the carboy to mix the yeast in.

My question is did i hurt the yeast? Am i going to have problems with this?

I'm pretty sure it'll be ok but always like to get "professional" opinions

 

[GoeHaarden]

Will you settle for an amateur opinion? Yes? Ok, great! Here's mine...

As far as the yeast sitting on top for a little bit, thats fine. My worry is that you didn't rehydrate your ONE packet of yeast for a lager. It seems you may have underpitched, which might lend itself to underattenuation and/or off flavors in your rather light beer. Light beers have no where for off flavors to hide, and can be a little more challenging to get right.

But what do I know, I'm no professional.

 

[jmcquesten]

Will you settle for an amateur opinion? Yes? Ok, great! Here's mine...

As far as the yeast sitting on top for a little bit, thats fine. My worry is that you didn't rehydrate your ONE packet of yeast for a lager. It seems you may have underpitched, which might lend itself for some off flavors in your rather light beer. Light beers have no where for off flavors to hide, and can be a little more challenging to get right.

But what do I know, I'm no professional.

I'm no professional either, but it DOES seem like an underpitch on the yeast. Maybe 2 packs, both rehydrated? I've never used dry lager yeast, but I know I'm usually at 3 to 5 liters on my liquid yeast starters.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I'm no professional either, but it DOES seem like an underpitch on the yeast. Maybe 2 packs, both rehydrated? I've never used dry lager yeast, but I know I'm usually at 3 to 5 liters on my liquid yeast starters.

I've been on a lager kick lately, and I can say with certainty that I've pitched atleast two packets when I use dry yeast or a built up 1 gallon starter of liquid. I've yet to have one stall, but to me it just seems like lagers would be harder to get to restart.

Again, at 1.045 it might be okay but it is 6 gallons so that is a little more beer to consider as well...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Would it be advantageous to rush order another packet of yeast and pitch?

 

[FunkedOut]

I think by the time you get a pack in and pitch it, the existing colony will have multiplied and produced any off flavors from the stress of the underpitch.
It’s a good idea to have a spare dry pack for just in case. They’re cheap and keep for a long time in the fridge.

With the low temp, the growth phase is slowed down a bit. The off flavor production gets slowed down with it.
The lag phase might be a couple days on this one with the combo of under pitch and lower temp.

It’s not going to be bad beer.

 

[jmcquesten]

I think by the time you get a pack in and pitch it, the existing colony will have multiplied and produced any off flavors from the stress of the underpitch.
It’s a good idea to have a spare dry pack for just in case. They’re cheap and keep for a long time in the fridge.

With the low temp, the growth phase is slowed down a bit. The off flavor production gets slowed down with it.
The lag phase might be a couple days on this one with the combo of under pitch and lower temp.

It’s not going to be bad beer.

There is a possibility it WILL be bad beer. Can't guarantee that. It should at least be beer though.

Since the OP wasn't able to get the right yeast for the recipe, it could end up being just a practice lager run. I really think the Mexican lager yeast would make a difference for this beer. I recommend drinking whatever it ends up being, then trying again with the Mexican lager yeast AND a huge starter.

 

[GoeHaarden]

There is a possibility it WILL be bad beer. Can't guarantee that. It should at least be beer though.

There is still a good possibility that it will be an AWESOME beer. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about it. This is probably one where I'd be very specific about when to do the diacetyl rest.

 

[Rob2010SS]

This is one I'm smacking myself in the forehead for. I've always read that lager's require a much larger pitch rate and I completely forgot. I just applied the ale mentality that 1 packet would be fine in such a low gravity beer. Fingers crossed it comes out ok.

@GoeHaarden How would you judge when to do the diacetyl rest in this case?

 

[GoeHaarden]

This is one I'm smacking myself in the forehead for. I've always read that lager's require a much larger pitch rate and I completely forgot. I just applied the ale mentality that 1 packet would be fine in such a low gravity beer. Fingers crossed it comes out ok.

@GoeHaarden How would you judge when to do the diacetyl rest in this case?

I'd judge it and decide based on the gravity, and I'd probably try to ramp the temp up when it gets around 1.025-1.028. This also may help to prevent any stalling that may OR may not happen.

The reason I say this is that a lot of people like to use gravity to decide when to start the rest (like ~75% fermented or whatever). These days I usually just do a diacetyl rest at day 10 and not worry about, but it may be more beneficial here. And then again, it may not matter at all.

Are you seeing any activity?

 

[Rob2010SS]

I usually try to avoid gravity samples during fermentation but in this case, I may not have a choice... You say you start your rest at day 10. Does that mean that at day 10 you start ramping up the temp 5*F/day, do you jump it all the way up to your rest temp in one day, or do you have it at your rest temp by day 10? I'm interpreting what you said to mean that at day 10, you start ramping up something like 5*F/day until at desired temp...

In regards to activity, yeah, it's going. I pitched Saturday at 7:30pm and it was a slow starter for sure. I didn't see any activity all day Sunday. Monday morning at 6:30am, there was bubbles going through the blow off tube, maybe 1 every 10 seconds. By 11:30am Monday, there was krausen. So, long story short, there's activity. Hard to tell but here's a picture...

 

[GoeHaarden]

Yeah, I agree with not taking samples and thats why I do the low-tech way of just using doing it at day 10. Meaning I start the temp increase at day 10, and I really have no science behind it but I've yet to have diacetyl in my beers so I guess it works. Maybe I'll try my next one without a rest to see if the diacetyl monster really exists.

So on day 10, I set my chamber to rise 1 degree every two hours until I hit the desired temp. Not sure what is the best temp but I usually just go to 68F. I leave it there for a week, take a gravity reading, and cold crash.

Again, I don't really have anything to back this up other than experience and its been pretty successful for me.

Your pic looks pretty good actually, and thats probably about all the krausen I'd expect. I think you're going to be ok...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Awesome, appreciate the advice. We'll see how it comes out I suppose.

It's so weird to me. I'm used to seeing the krausen from my imperial stout I did and NEIPAs. This krausen looks so light and .... clean haha.

Thanks again @GoeHaarden

 

[Rob2010SS]

In regards to the D-Rest, I think I'll probably just follow your method for starters and see how it goes.

 

[GoeHaarden]

This krausen looks so light and ..

Yeah, that is a good way to describe it. It's pretty tame, and I usually use an airlock for the entire fermentation. Just remember to switch out that blowoff tube prior to cold crashing.

Also, I have a had a few krausens on a couple lagers never fall, but they attenuated so I'm not sure what that was all about.

 

[FunkedOut]

I find that lager yeast krausen are much smaller (shorter?) than ales. Probably a temperature thing. Warmer makes things happen faster, so CO2 escapes the wort/beer faster than the foam can settle.

I just noticed your name. I drive a black on black 2010 SS. But my name's not Rob.

 

[GoeHaarden]

In regards to the D-Rest, I think I'll probably just follow your method for starters and see how it goes.

Let me know how it works out. I could be one of those people who can't taste diacetyl and my beers have been riddled with it

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah, that is a good way to describe it. It's pretty tame, and I usually use an airlock for the entire fermentation. Just remember to switch out that blowoff tube prior to cold crashing.

Also, I have a had a few krausens on a couple lagers never fall, but they attenuated so I'm not sure what that was all about.

Yep, plan to switch to airlock for cold crash. However, I was thinking after the D-rest, transferring to keg and just doing the cold crash in there. I was thinking I could just let it cold condition in the keg. It sounds as though people do this...?

I find that lager yeast krausen are much smaller (shorter?) than ales. Probably a temperature thing. Warmer makes things happen faster, so CO2 escapes the wort/beer faster than the foam can settle.

I just noticed your name. I drive a black on black 2010 SS. But my name's not Rob.

That's awesome man! Mines the dark blue with the white hockey stripes.

 

[GoeHaarden]

However, I was thinking after the D-rest, transferring to keg and just doing the cold crash in there. I was thinking I could just let it cold condition in the keg. It sounds as though people do this...?

Yeah, I don't think its wrong either way. I believe cold crashing under CO2 is the best way to do it so you avoid pulling air into your wort by the drop in pressure. Even better if you can close transfer with CO2. Even better if you had a conical. Oh, I wish I had a conical...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah, I don't think its wrong either way. I believe cold crashing under CO2 is the best way to do it so you avoid pulling air into your wort by the drop in pressure. Even better if you can close transfer with CO2. Even better if you had a conical. Oh, I wish I had a conical...

You and me both man!! I wish I had one of those badly. One day maybe, when I can convince the wife that it's a necessity.

 

[fragged]

Yeah, I don't think its wrong either way. I believe cold crashing under CO2 is the best way to do it so you avoid pulling air into your wort by the drop in pressure. Even better if you can close transfer with CO2. Even better if you had a conical. Oh, I wish I had a conical...

I crash in a keg. Crashed 2 lagers in my big mouth bubblers and wasn't a fan of suck back when I kept an air lock on (with vodka instead of star san) and cavitation of the FV when I used a solid bung. Now I adjust the batch down and just use the keg as the fermenting vessel (see the thread regarding this - closed loop transfer).

P.s. I also want a conical

 

[GoeHaarden]

I crash in a keg. Crashed 2 lagers in my big mouth bubblers and wasn't a fan of suck back when I kept an air lock on (with vodka instead of star san) and cavitation of the FV when I used a solid bung. Now I adjust the batch down and just use the keg as the fermenting vessel (see the thread regarding this - closed loop transfer).

P.s. I also want a conical

You can use the one piece 'S' type airlock and usually dont get any suckback. Still, when I use a 3-piece airlock the suckback is pretty minimal. Much less than a blowoff tube anyways.

When you say adjust the batch down, are you referring to the volume? Fermenting in kegs has never really appealed to me, so I don't know the process. I think I just like to watch it whirl!

 

[Rob2010SS]

You can use the one piece 'S' type airlock and usually dont get any suckback. Still, when I use a 3-piece airlock the suckback is pretty minimal. Much less than a blowoff tube anyways.

When you say adjust the batch down, are you referring to the volume? Fermenting in kegs has never really appealed to me, so I don't know the process. I think I just like to watch it whirl!

I'm the same way. I did my first batch in a plastic fermenting bucket. After the first one I went to glass because I wanted to see it! I like seeing the yeast party dancing around in there.

 

[fragged]

You can use the one piece 'S' type airlock and usually dont get any suckback. Still, when I use a 3-piece airlock the suckback is pretty minimal. Much less than a blowoff tube anyways.

When you say adjust the batch down, are you referring to the volume? Fermenting in kegs has never really appealed to me, so I don't know the process. I think I just like to watch it whirl!

Ya, normally I do 5.5 gallons to account for grub and yeast. In a corny, you can only fit 5 gallons(if you add a drop or two on fermcap).

This thread covers the process I use.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/600563/