First Lager! Need your advice!

[Tiroux]

The cold is coming, and my cold room is not lowing toward lager fermentation temps! 52°F this morning. So I'm gonna brew my first lager soon. I'm totally new, so I will accept any advice, tip, suggestion, comments on my recipe and my fermentation process.

I'm looking for a kind of Vienna Lager, really malty, bu not too sweet. I want it fairly dry, really clean. A well present aromatic hop, but not overtaking the malt, and not too much bitterness.

6 Gallons

3.3lbs Munich Malt
3.3lbs Vienna Malt
3.3lbs Pilsen Malt
1.1lbs Carapils

1/2oz Horizon FWH + 60 minutes
1/2oz Hallertauer Hers. 20 minutes
1/2oz Tettnang 10 minutes
1/2oz Hallertauer Hers. 7.5 minutes
1/2oz Tettnang 5 minutes

Munich Lager Yeast

Dough in at 122, then rise to the next step.
60 minutes mash at 151°F, then mash out.

Fermentation...
1-2 weeks primary at 50-55°F
1-2 weeks secondary at 50-55°F
1 month lagering at 40-42°F


Few questions...
The starter, what temp?
Refermentation in the bottle, what temp?

 

[Poobah58]

Don't think you need all those late hops. Maybe keep the 10-minute one and drop the others.

 

[1Mainebrew]

Do a step starter at room temp and start like 4 days before bre day. After its krausen drops from the first step (1 liter), then you can chill, decant, and then add 1.5 liters 1.040 starter, then once that's done, chill decant and do a 2 liter starter. After the krausen has dropped, chill it. Decant it once you're ready to pitch.

Chill your wort down as low as you can and then put it down stairs. Fill your air lock pretty high with vodka because as it chills it will suck some of it back into the wort if you can't chill it low enough. You can also stick it in a bucket, pot, etc of COLD water (you can add some salt and ice if you want) to drop the temp faster too. The goal is to pitch at 45 and let it rise to 52 for fermentation. Aerate or oxygenate as best you can prior to pitching.

Once the krausen drops rack it and do a d rest at room temp for 4-5 days. Then lager it for 5-6 weeks. Then package as usual. If you bottle if will take longer to carb if you don't sprinkle some fresh yeast into the bottling bucket.

Last and certainly not least, great yeast choice: it's my favorite lager yeast to work with!

 

[Yooper]

I'd not do the rest at 122, unless you get undermodified malt. You could do a higher temperature protein rest if you feel you really need one, though. Doing a very short rest at 131-133 would work but it's not necessary.

I'd change up the hopping a bit if you wanted something like a Vienna lager.

Make sure you make a HUGE yeast starter, and pitch it at 48 degrees or so and let the fermentation warm up to about 50 and hold it there until the diacetyl rest.

After the diacetyl rest, you don't need to hold it at 50, you can go directly to lagering. I like to lager at 34 degrees for about 6-8 weeks for a beer like that.

 

[Tiroux]

Thanks for the replies, it's good help!

About the hop... I don't absolutly want a traditionnal Vienna Lager. I called it vienna lager because of the grist, that will be pretty malt with all that Vienna and Munich, but I'd also want something a bit more hoppy. I really want to keep all that Hersbrucker and Tettnang. I could maybe keep the tettnang at 10 and 5 minutes, then dry hop the Hallertauer...

That said... for a dry hop in a lager, you do it when? at what temp?

 

[Zacher]

My thoughts:

Munich Lager Yeast-great choice!

Dough in at 122, then rise to the next step.
60 minutes mash at 151°F, then mash out.-I agree that dough in at 122 is not necessary. Go straight to your sac rest.

Fermentation...
1-2 weeks primary at 50-55°F
1-2 weeks secondary at 50-55°F-I would leave it on the cake for 3-4 weeks and then package. If you pitch the proper amount of yeast a d-rest is not necessary either.
1 month lagering at 40-42°F


Few questions...
The starter, what temp?-starter is at room temp. You are making yeast, not beer. Visit mrmalty or yeastcalc.com to get the proper pitching rate. If you have a stir plate it looks like a 3.5L starter will cover you. If not, you'll need to step it up.
Refermentation in the bottle, what temp?

Room temp

 

[Tiroux]

Thanks!

But 3.5L with a stir plate... it seems BIG.

It will be 5.5gal at 1049... Mrmalty says, with ''intermittent shaking'' starter, 2L... 1.3L with a stir plate.

And for bottling, should I add some yeast? I just grab a pack of dry yeast (lager, aler?), or save from the slurry after the secondary?

 

[Hex23]

Thanks!

But 3.5L with a stir plate... it seems BIG.

It will be 5.5gal at 1049... Mrmalty says, with ''intermittent shaking'' starter, 2L... 1.3L with a stir plate.

You must not have selected lager.

 

[Hex23]

And for bottling, should I add some yeast? I just grab a pack of dry yeast (lager, aler?), or save from the slurry after the secondary?

I've never had to add yeast at bottling time even after 10 weeks. Not sure if it was the key, but when I bottle condition I slowly drop temps to lagering temps so as to not shock the yeast.

 

[Tiroux]

You must not have selected lager.

Lol, yes. Just try it, you'll see.

 

[Tiroux]

I've never had to add yeast at bottling time even after 10 weeks. Not sure if it was the key, but when I bottle condition I slowly drop temps to lagering temps so as to not shock the yeast.

I'll try to do that... but since the lagering will be in a unmodified fridge that can't get hotter than 42F, it might be a little shock. I'll try to figure something out.

 

[Zacher]

Lol, yes. Just try it, you'll see.

But that's with 2 vials produced today. Change your growth factor to account for 1 vial/packet and it will jump to 3.22L with yeast produced today. Account for a month of storage and you are at 3.5L+.

Dave

 

[Tiroux]

Oh yhea! Damn, I'm sorry!

So, should I make a huge starter... like a 5L, in a 3Gal corboy I have, then let it decant, suck off the liquid, then throw my beer in? Or should I make step starter?

 

[Hex23]

Oh yhea! Damn, I'm sorry!

So, should I make a huge starter... like a 5L, in a 3Gal corboy I have, then let it decant, suck off the liquid, then throw my beer in? Or should I make step starter?

Not a ton of difference in the end result, so base your decision on how much time you have vs equipment/capacity.

Definitely should decant at that size. Even in a stepped starter there will be a lower limit on the last step size that will be large enough to need to decant.

 

[Zacher]

Oh yhea! Damn, I'm sorry!

So, should I make a huge starter... like a 5L, in a 3Gal corboy I have, then let it decant, suck off the liquid, then throw my beer in? Or should I make step starter?

I would start with the production date of your yeast and work backwards from there. I like yeastcalc.com better than mrmalty as you can also determine the necessary steps if you go that route. But as mentioned, much will be determined by your time and equipment.

Dave

 

[Yooper]

Oh yhea! Damn, I'm sorry!

So, should I make a huge starter... like a 5L, in a 3Gal corboy I have, then let it decant, suck off the liquid, then throw my beer in? Or should I make step starter?

Yes, you'll want a huge starter. Ferment it out, then chill for 48 hours, and then decant the spent wort.

You probably wont need additional yeast at bottling, but adding a little won't hurt.

The easiest way I've found is to use dry nottingham yeast. Boil up the priming sugar and water, cool that and stir in 1/3 package of dry ale yeast. Put that in your botting bucket, and rack the beer into that and bottle. It really works great, and is insurance the beer will carb up as desired.

 

[Zacher]

And no need to apologize. We all learned this stuff somehow, and probably from someone on a forum......

Dave

 

[Tiroux]

Thanks to all!

Since my erlenmeyer for my starter is only 2L, I will probably make a huge starter in a 3gal carboy, let it decant.. and when I'm ready to pitch in my wort.. I'll just poor some wort in it to liquify, then transfert to my fermenter.

I guess in the future I will buy a 2gal fermentor for those huge lager starter

 

[Zacher]

Thanks to all!

Since my erlenmeyer for my starter is only 2L, I will probably make a huge starter in a 3gal carboy, let it decant.. and when I'm ready to pitch in my wort.. I'll just poor some wort in it to liquify, then transfert to my fermenter.

I guess in the future I will buy a 2gal fermentor for those huge lager starter

Try using yeastcalc.com. With 1 month old yeast you can get where you need to be with two 1.8L starters. If you try to make too big of a starter, you run in to inoculation and growth rate problems. Look at this graph. You need 379B yeast cells for a good fermentation. If your yeast is a month old, you'll need about a 9L starter to get you there which will require about 31oz of DME. The numbers represent the number of yeast packs/vials. OR, you could make 2 x 1.8L step-up starters and get the same result using 12.5 oz of DME. See how the growth rate slows the larger the starter becomes. I would invest in a stir plate and a 5L erlenmeyer. With a stir plate you are there with one 4L starter and 13oz of DME....

 

[Tiroux]

Ok I'll take a look.

For the 5L erlenmeyer and stir plate... I just spend 400$ on a mash/boil kettle so... It will wait a bait.

 

[Zacher]

Ok I'll take a look.

For the 5L erlenmeyer and stir plate... I just spend 400$ on a mash/boil kettle so... It will wait a bait.

When you are ready, check out: http://www.stirstarters.com/

If you get a stir plate, you can still use your 2L erlen until you are ready to go big.....

Good luck with the lager!

Dave

 

[Tiroux]

Ordered. Ahah, thanks!

 

[helibrewer]

I second yeastcalc.com Much easier to use especially when doing step ups.

 

[Tiroux]

I'll take a look for sure.. now that I have a stir plate with a 2000ml Erlenmeyer, I will probably do a multiple steps starter.

That said, regarding the yeast pitch... I heard two, or three different theories...
Pitching at low temp, stay low, diacetyl, lagering.
Pitching at low temp, slowly raise, diacetyl, lagering.
Pitching at high temp, slowly lowers, diacetyl, lagering.

I want this beer as clean as possible, so I would like to pitch at the actual fermentation temps, so about 10°C. Should I use an even more bigger starter? I guess I would have to lower the starter to the same temp before pitching?

 

[Hex23]

Of course, never pitch warm. I've had success with a Narziss-like scheme, starting at 44 ramping up to no more than 50F within 2-3 days. With that approach, I've never needed a d-rest. I don't think you need to go to an even bigger starter than the typical 1.5 million cells per mL. It's more important to make sure the yeast are healthy. Since this is your first lager, be aware that the lower temps will often extend the lag time, even with a big pitch.

Yes, you should try to be within 10F of the main wort when pitching. You don't want to shock they yeast. It shouldn't be too hard to do this since your starter will have been crash cooled to decant it.

 

[Tiroux]

Ok! Since I can't really control the temperature... I will just pitch the yeast at 50, what should be the room temp by then, and let it ferment at this temp for 1/2 weeks primary, a couple weeks of secondary, then rack in the fridge at 40 for about a month. By pitching at 50, should I do a D-rest? It would not cost me anything.. and it can't harm?

 

[Hex23]

Ok! Since I can't really control the temperature... I will just pitch the yeast at 50, what should be the room temp by then, and let it ferment at this temp for 1/2 weeks primary, a couple weeks of secondary, then rack in the fridge at 40 for about a month. By pitching at 50, should I do a D-rest? It would not cost me anything.. and it can't harm?

Sorry .. forgot about the lack of temp control. Pitching at 50 will probably still create a nice clean lager. Doing a d-rest won't harm it at all. But technically it will cost you ... time. If you want, you could sample the beer and see if it has any detectable amount of diacetyl, and skip the d-rest if it doesn't. Or if you don't want to bother, just do the d-rest which shouldn't take long.

 

[1Mainebrew]

I've worked with that yeast quite a bit and it definitely benefits from a D-rest. I mean why not, its easy to do.

 

[Begin2Brew]

I consider myself a traditional brewer and brew 80% lagers. Here is how I go about it.

About a week before I make a 2L starter and get that on the stir plate. My starters are around 1.045. I'll let that go 2-3 days depending on how active the yeast are. Yeast I have washed and saved take longer to ferment than those from a fresh smack pack or vial. Once the starter has fermented out I place it in the fridge and let the yeast settle out. At this point I never touch the yeast until brew day.

I want the malt profile to stand out so I mash at 155F for no more than 40 minutes. As long as my iodine test confirms conversion I mash out and boil.

I boil on the vigorous side to prevent chill haze. I like my lagers clean and clear.

I cool to 68-70F and pitch. Once yeast is pitched I place the fermenter in the freezer set to 50F. Let it go for 5-6 days then remove and set it on my basement floor for the next 3 weeks. I don't check gravity I just wait for fermentation to come to a crawl. I'll probably catch flack for this but I watch the air lock to tell me when things are ready for the d-rest. The d-rest is the three weeks out of the fermentation chamber while it sits on the basement floor.

After the three weeks I'll cold crash 3 days, keg, purge with CO2 and lager for at least 4 weeks at 40F.

I don't like a hoppy lager so I stick with one or two additions using traditional hops.

Good luck and in the end remember you made beer!

 

[Yooper]

I'll take a look for sure.. now that I have a stir plate with a 2000ml Erlenmeyer, I will probably do a multiple steps starter.

That said, regarding the yeast pitch... I heard two, or three different theories...
Pitching at low temp, stay low, diacetyl, lagering.
Pitching at low temp, slowly raise, diacetyl, lagering.
Pitching at high temp, slowly lowers, diacetyl, lagering.

I want this beer as clean as possible, so I would like to pitch at the actual fermentation temps, so about 10°C. Should I use an even more bigger starter? I guess I would have to lower the starter to the same temp before pitching?

Of course, never pitch warm. I've had success with a Narziss-like scheme, starting at 44 ramping up to no more than 50F within 2-3 days. With that approach, I've never needed a d-rest. I don't think you need to go to an even bigger starter than the typical 1.5 million cells per mL. It's more important to make sure the yeast are healthy. Since this is your first lager, be aware that the lower temps will often extend the lag time, even with a big pitch.

You want to pitch cold, as Hex stated. Pitching warm is not the best way to get the best flavor. Yeast don't mind being warmed up, but they hate being chilled.

As far as a diacetyl rest, why not? Can't hurt, and might help. Some people aren't great at detecting diacetyl in small amounts, and if there is a tiny hint of diacetyl after primary, it will NOT get better and will in fact get far worse.

 

[Tiroux]

Ok, So I'll pitch as cold as the fermentation will be, do a D-rest, and lager for a month or so then bottle. I'll see for the dry hop out it turns out after the fermentation.. if the maltiness comes out really great, maybe i'll just drop off the dry hop