LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
I brewed my first lager today, and pitched the yeast when it was around 70 degrees and this was at noon. I just got home and still no signs of fermentation.... is something wrong or do you think it will take off?
First lager help
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UncleJohnnys
Well-Known Member
New guy here but we did an Oktoberfest on Tues. and just started to bubble today. I was just about to throw in some more yeast...Did an IPA first batch and it was bubblin like crazy in 24 hrs...
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
This is a midwest oktoberfest kit that I am doing. I am about to get another thing of yeast but not sure if I should.
UncleJohnnys
Well-Known Member
I got one and hydrated it, only to find it bubbling so I put it in the fridge for the next batch...lol
I thought about throwing it in but the guys here said not to bother. Give it at least 72 hours I'd say.... but you see my post count don't you...lol
I thought about throwing it in but the guys here said not to bother. Give it at least 72 hours I'd say.... but you see my post count don't you...lol
BryceL
Well-Known Member
Be patient. It can take a few days before you see signs of fermentation, especially with lagers. What temperature are you fermenting it at? Lagers should be done in the low 50's for best results.
UncleJohnnys
Well-Known Member
Funny, I was worried that we got it to cold(36/38 f) but after talking to our homebrew store guy he said to let it warm up into the 60's and it started bubbling so now we are cooling it back down slowly. RDWAD>9%...lol
BryceL
Well-Known Member
Having enough yeast is also very important with lagers since they are brewed at much lower temperatures. You should be doing a large starter for sure. If you didn't, look into it for your next lager, it will make a big difference. Use mrmalty.com to check your pitching rates
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
Well I am currently just going off what the directions said. It said to start fermenting at mid 60s for three days then move to low 50s.... I didn't make a starter, I used one of the smack packs.
Lately I've been making starters with a stir plate and notice activity often in under 4 hours (even with lagers). Alternatively, when I use dry yeast (rehydrated), it takes the normal 6-12 hours before fermentation shows up. I should probably compare in cell count, but in general I always do do 2 packages/vials, and 1 liter starters for ales / 3 liters for lagers.
you want to ferment that beer around 50 degrees. I made an oktoberfest last year and it took 3 days to get going. my brother inlaw made the same kit fermenting 60-70 degrees and it tasted COMPLETELY different
Sounds like your directions suck! After three days at the mid-60s, you aren't making a lager at all, but instead that is an ale. Three days of fermentation in the 60s means that the beer will be nearly done when you lower the temperature to the correct fermentation temperature.
One smack pack is severe underpitching for a lager, even according to Wyeast's own website!
Pitch Rate:
Lagers typically have a reduced ester profile and are characterized as clean with discernable malt character. It is very important to recognize that pitch rate is directly related to ester production. Increasing the quantity of yeast pitched is the most effective method of reducing the ester profile in the finished beer. A minimum of 12 million cells per milliliter is recommended to keep esters at a minimum.
One Wyeast Activator pack will deliver about 6 million cells per milliliter to 5 gallons of wort. In order to increase this rate to 12 million cells per milliliter it is necessary to either pitch two Activators or to make a 0.5 gallon (2 liter) starter with an Activator. If a starter is made using a Propagator (50ml package) then the starter needs to be 1 gallon (3.78 liters) to achieve 12 million cells per ml.
Fermentation Temperature:
One of the most common questions we field is, should I start my lager warm or cold? The answer depends on how much time you have for your primary fermentation and how clean you want your final beer. The best results will be achieved by pitching at least 12 million cells per milliliter into cold and well aerated wort (48 to 58°F, 9 to 15°C).
If a faster primary fermentation is desired or you are pitching less yeast, then it is best to start a little bit warmer and then cool to the desired fermentation temperature once signs of fermentation are evident.
Secondary Fermentation:
A secondary fermentation at a temperature below the primary fermentation allows for a slow reduction of any remaining fermentable sugars. This secondary fermentation can take from one to three weeks at temperatures starting between 39-41°F (4-5°C) and slowly falling to as low as 33°F (1°C). The length of the secondary depends on the amount of fermentable sugars remaining.
Conditioning or Lagering:
Lagering is a time when harsh flavors from fermentation are mellowed. Yeast re-absorb some of the ester compounds from fermentation as well as some of the sulfur compounds. Malt tannins coagulate with haze-forming proteins and precipitate out along with some sulfurous compounds.
Temperatures should remain very stable during lagering, generally in the range of 33-34°F (1-2°C). Contact with oxygen at this point is very detrimental to beer flavor and should be avoided at all costs. Lagering time depends on many factors. If a cold secondary fermentation was employed, then the length of the lagering period can generally be decreased. A lagering period of one to four weeks is typical.
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
So should I go ahead and put it in my freezer chest and turn my temp control to about 50 then? And do I need to get more yeast or am I too late?
Can you get more yeast today? If so, it's not too late. But I'd definitely get to the correct temperature sooner, rather than later.
Some (poor) instructions will have you compensate for underpitching by keeping the beer at 70 degrees until signs of fermentation begin, and then lower the temperature then. That might work for you, as you definitely need yeast reproduction here.
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
None of the place are open around here on sunday, and there are no visible signs of fermentation.
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
It has been at 71 since yesterday afternoon.
Well, maybe it'll start up by tomorrow. The yeast has to reproduce before fermentation begins, and you may have underpitched by two or three packages, depending on the OG.
I'd probably try to keep it in the mid 60s (no higher) until tomorrow, and then lower the temperature if it's going. Remember that once fermentation begins, it takes a long time to cool down 5 gallons of fermenting wort.
Yooper. I've actually heard that lagering at below freezing at 30-31 degrees clears the beer exponentially faster than 33-34. Think I heard it on brewstrong with Jamil and Palmer. I guess the beer won't freeze at these temps but it will clear much more quickly. what are your thoughts?
All of my lagers are pretty much crystal clear by the time I get to lagering anyway. But I do believe that "lower for longer" is better. What I mean is that you can lager for three weeks at 40 degrees, or 8 weeks at 34 degrees for example. And the lower temperature will be a smoother beer generally. So, sure, 30 degrees would work well I'd think. I just never have done it. I do like to lager for 1 week for each 8-10 points of OG (this comes from Greg Noonan's advice) so for a 1.070 OG lager, I'd lager 7-9 weeks or so at 34 degrees.
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
The O.G. was 1.051. So if id doesn't take off is it just screwed?
UncleJohnnys
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm heading over to bottle our first batch in a couple hours. I could throw the stuff I hydrated into the Lager but I hate to mess with the airlock. It sure seems like most people prefer 2 packs for 5gal lagers but the Saflager says pack says it's good for 20-30L ??
Waddayathink??
Waddayathink??
Nah, it'll go! You may get a few esters from a warmer and stressed start, but I think it'll be ok.
Which yeast strain are you using, by the way? Some strains produce more diacetyl than others, but I'd recommend a thorough diacetyl rest regardless of the strain for this beer.
UncleJohnnys
Well-Known Member
Sorry to jump in like that. I thought I was posting on another similar thread
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
Since yesterday afternoon.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
if you use a bottom fermenting lager yeast, isn't it still a lager, just not a good one.
also, do you consider a steam/california common to be an ale? it's lager yeast at ale temps, and they're fantastic!
Good point! I guess I was just trying to point out that in no way 60s is a lager temperature!
Steam beer is a "hybrid" style. It's a recognized style by the BJCP.
jigidyjim
Well-Known Member
Relax. There are many many posts on here of people doing the exact same thing you did for their first lager, including me.
When you under pitch, it will take a long time for fermentation to start. Mine took 4 days. This one took 3 days: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/liquid-lager-yeast-not-starting-258184/
My beer came out ok. It was definitely drinkable, and the people I shared it with liked it. It would not have done well in competition, it was not clean like a lager should be, probably from stressed out yeast. I think there was some diacetyl too, but i don't know.
But don't stress. As long as the yeast is viable, it will start.
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
Still no bubbles or foam at 6 am this morning.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
no matter what, dont' just dump it.
you could always go buy a turkey, toss 1 pound of salt in that wort and drop the turkey in it for 24 hours.
it will be the best turkey you have ever had!
you could always go buy a turkey, toss 1 pound of salt in that wort and drop the turkey in it for 24 hours.
it will be the best turkey you have ever had!
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
Well how long should I hold out before its not going to do anything?
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
i would wait at least 4 days, then probably re-pitch.
i was sort of joking about the turkey thing, but it would be better than dumping it down the drain.
i was sort of joking about the turkey thing, but it would be better than dumping it down the drain.
LILJONNYWV
Well-Known Member
I hues I need to listen to you all and not worry so much. I came home today and it has finally taken off so I put it in the keezer. Thanks for all the advice.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
and my dreams of juicy juicy beer turkey flitter away...
jigidyjim
Well-Known Member
Awesome. If it's anything like mine, you'll probably have some weird flavors from the stressed out yeast, including diacetyl... so give it a d-rest, and don't skimp out on the lagering time!
Like I said, mine came out totally drinkable, just not perfect.
