First gusher infection, already repitched yeast to new batch still in primary

[mkyl428]

Okay so I have finally gotten what I believe to be my first infection after almost 3 years of brewing, and I don't know what I should do now.

I brewed a lovely ordinary bitter about 5 weeks ago with WLP002, I left it in primary for 3 weeks checked the FG it was spot on 1.013 down from 1.040, so I bottled. The yeast was harvested (unwashed) from primary into 2 sanitized jars, and the beer was bottled with 52 grams of corn sugar for approx 1.5 vols of co2.

A week later one of the jars was pitched into a 1.082 OG Wookey Jack clone. (I am also using the same fermenter the bitter was in, although it was cleaned/sanitized between batches.)
The Wookey has been in primary for 1 week now, and the bitter has been in bottles for 2 weeks.

Monday I put a bottle of the bitter in the fridge and I opened it yesterday after about 24 hours in the fridge. The beer gushed slightly and seemed way more carbonated than the 1.5 vols of co2 I primed for, yet tastes fine. A saison I bottled a week prior and put in the fridge at the same time was still slightly under carbonated and didn't gush at all.

I moved the rest of the batch to the fridge and noticed some of the bottles had a small krausen in them as I was fridging them, and some had the dreaded ring around the neck.

So now I am unsure how to proceed, I am guessing I should replace all my bottling equipment, (tubing, bottling wand, auto siphon, bucket) and the fermenter, but what about the Wookey it still needs to be dry hopped/bottled, and was not cheap to brew, do I bottle the possibly infected Wookey with new equipment?

For all I know the Wookey might be fine but I am paranoid now that it too is going to gush once bottled and I don't want to infect new equipment after I drop all that cash on new siphons/ tubing & such

 

[jekeane]

If fermentation was infection free which it seems it was, I would think it is likely that infection happened down stream. If your racking cane was the issue then hopefully the issue was above the beer in the hose.

If fermentation of your wookie seems to go well I would replace the plastic downstream of fermentation.

 

[BowAholic]

sorry to hear about the possible infection, but that is what it sounds like. I just opened some beer that I bottled after my first gusher bug infection and the beer is fine. I didn't replace anything but thoroughly cleaned everything I had with oxy-clean and then starsan. I allowed everything a long soak in the oxy before scrubbing, rinsing, and sanitizing. I'll bet you're OK with this batch as I think we most often infect during bottling. Good luck!
Bob

 

[m00ps]

Im guessing the infection happened during bottling and may not be in every bottle.

So we will hope the wooky clone is OK, but you should get all new plastic gear to work with it to be safe. And more importantly, I would hold off on using this new plastic gear with any subsequent batches until you can verify that the wooky beer isnt infected or else youll just be sending it on down the line

 

[mkyl428]

Im guessing the infection happened during bottling and may not be in every bottle.

So we will hope the wooky clone is OK, but you should get all new plastic gear to work with it to be safe. And more importantly, I would hold off on using this new plastic gear with any subsequent batches until you can verify that the wooky beer isnt infected or else youll just be sending it on down the line

This is what worries me... the possibility of buying new equipment and bottling the wookey, only to find out it is infected too and I just sent it through all the new equipment I bought

 

[Gavin C]

I'm not convinced you have an infection here.

OG 1.040 and FG 1.013 with WLP002 sounds under attenuated. I think another plausable explanation is that it was not finished fermenting.

Just looking at the numbers. 67%attenuation is right in the projected range from WLP but it can attenuate more.

The krausen ring on the bottles would also be consistent with an ongoing fermentation. Slightly rousing the yeast during bottling may have gotten them to chew up some more fermentables other than the priming sugar. With highly flocculant starins like WLP002 this can happen.

What does the gusher taste like? Any foul aroma?

I wouldn't be too quick to throw any equipment away. Just a thought. May be totally wrong of course.

 

[helterscelter]

I'm not convinced you have an infection here.

OG 1.040 and FG 1.013 with WLP002 sounds under attenuated. I think another plausable explanation is that it was not finished fermenting.

Just looking at the numbers. 67%attenuation is right in the projected range from WLP but it can attenuate more.

The krausen ring on the bottles would also be consistent with an ongoing fermentation. Slightly rousing the yeast during bottling may have gotten them to chew up some more fermentables other than the priming sugar. With highly flocculant starins like WLP002 this can happen.

What does the gusher taste like? Any foul aroma?

I wouldn't be too quick to throw any equipment away. Just a thought. May be totally wrong of course.

I've also seen some slight gushing due to over carbonation - added slightly too much sugar via not reading the directions on prime drops. If there is no off flavor, it might be as @gavin_c mentioned, just some under attenuation before bottling resulting in over carbonation. I would probably keep the bottles in a bucket or plastic bin just in case you end up with bombs and test a couple over the next week or until you are ready to bottle the wooky to see how they change. An infection should change the flavor as it progresses.

 

[mkyl428]

I'm not convinced you have an infection here.

OG 1.040 and FG 1.013 with WLP002 sounds under attenuated. I think another plausable explanation is that it was not finished fermenting.

Just looking at the numbers. 67%attenuation is right in the projected range from WLP but it can attenuate more.

The krausen ring on the bottles would also be consistent with an ongoing fermentation. Slightly rousing the yeast during bottling may have gotten them to chew up some more fermentables other than the priming sugar. With highly flocculant starins like WLP002 this can happen.

What does the gusher taste like? Any foul aroma?


I wouldn't be too quick to throw any equipment away. Just a thought. May be totally wrong of course.

No off flavors, or aromas, the beer tastes great actually, just over carbed.

I did my best to pour a bottle into my hydrometer test jar and get a reading I probably didn't degas it all the way but I did wait a good hour and check it twice making sure to give the hydrometer a good spin. The gravity was the same as it was at bottling, which makes no sense to me, I figured it should be lower considering the gushing.

The beer was in primary a full three weeks, the last 2 of which it spent at 70° F and was brilliantly clear at bottling. Admittedly I only took one reading for FG and not 2 subsequent readings, however in my experience, after 3 weeks on a low gravity ale with the FG at the target I was given by my software it has always been done in the past.

You may be absolutely right I can't say, all those things just point to finished fermentation to me.

Having never experienced a stalled ferment though, and having only used WLP002 one time before I can't say I know what to expect either, do stalled fermentations usually drop clear?

 

[Gavin C]

No off flavors, or aromas, the beer tastes great actually, just over carbed.all those things just point to finished fermentation to me.

Having never experienced a stalled ferment though, and having only used WLP002 one time before I can't say I know what to expect either, do stalled fermentations usually drop clear?

After reading your thread I was on the AHA forum and there was some interesting posts by the braukaiser about strains like WLP002 that are highly flocculant. It seems they can drop clear even with maltriose and maltose still present in the beer. I did not know that so I thought it was worth sharing.

That is what it sounds like to me based on the lack of aroma or taste. Maltose present, yeast dropped to early and got kicked back into gear via the bottling and addition of priming solution.

I agree that after 3 weeks in the FV it's time to package. I don't do repeated gravity checks either before packaging. If the beer drops clear that's good enough for me together with an expected FG.

Your numbers are solid, as is your reason for going to the bottling stage. Other than kegging I wouldn't have done anything differently nor expected a stalled ferment and ensuing gushers had I bottled.

 

[Jhoss]

I had my only gushing batch using WLP002...And I've read the stories on 002 leaving you way high only to continue to ferment in the bottle which I think was my scenario.

I guess I'm 50/50 on it. A stout didnt gush but wer drank it fast...a porter did which sat in bottle for quite a while.

 

[mkyl428]

After reading your thread I was on the AHA forum and there was some interesting posts by the braukaiser about strains like WLP002 that are highly flocculant. It seems they can drop clear even with maltriose and maltose still present in the beer. I did not know that so I thought it was worth sharing.

That is what it sounds like to me based on the lack of aroma or taste. Maltose present, yeast dropped to early and got kicked back into gear via the bottling and addition of priming solution.

I agree that after 3 weeks in the FV it's time to package. I don't do repeated gravity checks either before packaging. If the beer drops clear that's good enough for me together with an expected FG.

Your numbers are solid, as is your reason for going to the bottling stage. Other than kegging I wouldn't have done anything differently nor expected a stalled ferment and ensuing gushers had I bottled.

Hmmm that is interesting I will rouse the wookey a couple times just in case.

I have been researching all day I also found a post from Revvy in an older thread saying how incomplete carbonation can cause gushing.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=4466674&postcount=2

I have never experienced that, but I always wait at least 2-3 weeks to open a bottle, and I am brewing in a new house so the space I am keeping my bottles may not keep as consistent a temperature as I think it does. The Saison I bottled 3 weeks ago that is sitting in the same closet isn't carbed yet, but it's a 7% beer, however it also didn't gush so IDK.

I may try taking some of the bottles back out of the fridge for another week and see where they go in terms of gushing, flavor, and gravity changes. I would assume gushers must produce some off flavor, but I have been brewing for almost 3 years and this is my first experience with gushers.

 

[Gavin C]

I read that post by Revvy. I'm not sure I follow his logic. I would think the headspace and the beer will be in near constant equilibrium with regard to Co2 partial pressures.

He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Who am I to argue with Revvy. I will however disent and await correction. Poppycock I say.

Cue the ominous music.

*Sits frightened at his keyboard*

 

[mkyl428]

I read that post by Revvy. I'm not sure I follow his logic. I would think the headspace and the beer will be in near constant equilibrium with regard to Co2 partial pressures.

He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Who am I to argue with Revvy. I will however disent and await correction. Poppycock I say.

Cue the ominous music.

*Sits frightened at his keyboard*

That's what I would think too, I don't know I guess what can waiting a little longer hurt, other than disrupting my brewing schedule... the more I think about it the less convinced I am it's an infection, but I want to figure it out. I don't need to spread it to further batches if it is one, but I don't want to drop $75-$100 on new equipment if I don't have to

 

[Gavin C]

... I will rouse the wookey ....

I'd give it more time too. Sounds like a plan. May not be every beer of course if adequate mixing in the bottling process occured. Given that this has never happen before I think that is unlikely. Very unlikely.

BTW do you use left or right hand to rouse the wookey or do you have someone do it for you.

 

[mkyl428]

.

BTW do you use left or right hand to rouse the wookey or do you have someone do it for you.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obKLdou0LH0[/ame]

 

[mkyl428]

Well I came home and pulled one of the beers in question out and poured it, it's definitely over carbonated it has a mouthfeel like a Belgian beer, and the malt character is lacking, IDK if that is because of the carbonation, or if it is because it is still fermenting down dextrins, I am going to try to get a hydro reading on it, but I am leaning towards infection again

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[mkyl428]

Could be from my tubing

View attachment 1436394739156.jpg

 

[Gavin C]

The bubbling in that glass of beer is crazy. Looks like an actively fermenting beer.

With tubing, its so cheap. If in doubt chuck it out. I'm still not convinced it's infected from the images you posted.

 

[mkyl428]

The bubbling in that glass of beer is crazy. Looks like an actively fermenting beer.

With tubing, its so cheap. If in doubt chuck it out. I'm still not convinced it's infected from the images you posted.

I went through all my bottling gear last night & there was some crud stuck in my bottle filler....

It's infected

I must have gotten tired and a bit careless in my cleaning after I bottled the saison I bottled a week earlier.

Maybe some saison yeast made it's way in there...

In any case I threw it all away and just ordered a whole new bottling line (bucket, tubing, filler, siphon) it was only like $40 on morebeer & gives me peace of mind so whatever

If the dirty bottling wand is indeed the cause that hopefully means the wookey should be okay

 

[wilserbrewer]

This is exactly why I love kegging I also experienced these type episodes when bottling, but with kegging and storing the beer cold, potential minor infection, or continued fermentation is kept in check with the cold storage of the beer, and perfect carbonation is as simple as turning a knob....sorry not a solution to your problem, just my experience.

 

[Gavin C]

I went through all my bottling gear last night & there was some crud stuck in my bottle filler....

It's infected

I must have gotten tired and a bit careless in my cleaning after I bottled the saison I bottled a week earlier.

Maybe some saison yeast made it's way in there...

In any case I threw it all away and just ordered a whole new bottling line (bucket, tubing, filler, siphon) it was only like $40 on morebeer & gives me peace of mind so whatever

If the dirty bottling wand is indeed the cause that hopefully means the wookey should be okay

Sorry to hear that. Hope you wookie remains healthy. Thanks for the update BTW.

 

[mkyl428]

This is exactly why I love kegging I also experienced these type episodes when bottling, but with kegging and storing the beer cold, potential minor infection, or continued fermentation is kept in check with the cold storage of the beer, and perfect carbonation is as simple as turning a knob....sorry not a solution to your problem, just my experience.

Lol no I totally agree, I have been working on building a kegging system piece by piece. That's why it's extra annoying to have to spend my money on new bottling gear.

I did however order some more keg parts with my bottling gear to hit the $59 order you need for free shipping.

I hope to be kegging by the end of the year, I just need a few more things, and don't have the money to drop on another freezer and Johnson control right now

 

[blizz81]

The beer was in primary a full three weeks, the last 2 of which it spent at 70° F and was brilliantly clear at bottling. Admittedly I only took one reading for FG and not 2 subsequent readings, however in my experience, after 3 weeks on a low gravity ale with the FG at the target I was given by my software it has always been done in the past.

You may be absolutely right I can't say, all those things just point to finished fermentation to me.

Having never experienced a stalled ferment though, and having only used WLP002 one time before I can't say I know what to expect either, do stalled fermentations usually drop clear?

I used Wyeast 1968 (same as WLP 002 I guess) in an ESB recently. I had it in primary a little longer than expected - probably around the three weeks you did. It seemed to finish relatively quickly, and yes, it did aggressively floc out and was very clear.

These universally overcarbed to the point I had to put them in the fridge quickly - domed caps, etc. They taste ok.

My end conclusion was the 1968 was so quick-acting and quick to floc out that it was largely out of suspension before it finished fermenting, and that ideally I should have roused the yeast once. Seemed upon bottling, it had some points to chew through still.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518991

 

[wilserbrewer]

....don't have the money to drop on another freezer and Johnson control right now

STC 1000 on ebay for around 20 bucks and a craigslist freezer, or better yet a craigslist refrigerator for free / cheap without temp controller.

I used freezers with temp controllers for several years, they were always wet, damp, humid and moldy inside and always needed cleaning. A year ago or so I switched to a large refrigerator, and am much happier...jme.