First BIAB: beer out of the primary tastes bitter/sour/astringent

[GlowingApple]

I've been doing extracts for several years now and decided to finally get into all-grain brewing. I brewed an oatmeal stout this past weekend and took a sample out of the primary today. It has an off flavor, that lasts strongly in the aftertaste. I think it might be astringency, but I'm not quite sure.

Reading up on astringency, there are a lot of threads saying that fine particulate getting through into the kettle (i.e. an insufficient vorlauf) can cause this, but I'm not sure if this is an issue with BIAB?

I'm also seeing a lot about too high of a mash pH. The water here is moderately hard, but I don't have any precise way to measure my mash pH (looking into getting a pH meter but I don't think I can afford one at the moment). I have pH paper that ranges from 0-13. My mash pH came out to be somewhere around 6, so I added 2 mL of lactic acid, which still left it at about 6, but probably between 5 and 6 based on the color. I didn't want to add more lactic acid and impart a lactic acid flavor.

In the future, what should I do differently? Do I need to add more lactic acid? should I use acidulated malt? Are there other options?

If the flavor is from extracted tannins, will aging help?

 

[jtratcliff]

I don't have much help to offer, only to say that the one Oatmeal stout I made (also BIAB) came out a little astringent, with not a lot of the mouthfeel you want from the oatmeal, and more roasty than I expected.

It did get better, but never really "good"... I drank it anyway

 

[Buckeye_Phil]

Walk us through the recipe / process to give us a better idea.

Recipe - grain bill, hops, yeast strain, etc
Process - mash temp, sparge?, fermentation temp, yeast starter?, etc

 

[GlowingApple]

Recipe:

8# pale 2 row, crushed by my LHBS — assumed 70% efficiency (actual efficiency was 75%)

1# flaked oats
.5# crystal 60L
.5# chocolate
.25# roasted barley
1 tsp Irish moss
1.70 oz east kent goldings (5.7% alpha, 2.9% beta)
WLP004 (pitchable tube)

I brought 7 gallons of water to 162 ˚F (using a digital temp probe) on my electric stove, added my brew bag (a large BIAB bag from MoreBeer.com), and stirred in the grains, gradually, starting with the dark malts. The temp settled to about 153 ˚F, and eventually fell to 151 ˚F, where I turned my stove back on low to hold it. The pH was ~6. I added 2 mL of lactic acid, in portions, and decided to stop there. The pH was getting closer to 5, but I would still read it at 6. I didn't want to add any more lactic acid though and impart a flavor.

I covered the kettle, and kept heating on low for 60 minutes, stirring every 5-10 minutes and continually checking the temperature. The temp would fall to about 145 ˚F, but once I stirred it was between 151 and 152 every time.

After an hour I raised the temp to 168 ˚F to mash out for 10 minutes. I hit about 169 ˚F and kept it pretty close to 168 ˚F for the 10 minutes.

I lifted the grain bag and let it drain as long as I could hold it, moved it into another kettle, sitting on top of an upside down colander, and let it drain for several minutes, pressed it gently, then poured the liquid in with the rest of the wort. No sparge. The volume at this point was 6.2 gallons.

Brought the wort up to a boil, added FermCap, added hops, and kept it boiling, with the cover off, for 75 minutes. Added my wort chiller and 1 tsp of Irish moss. Boiled it for another 15 minutes.

Cooled the wort down to room temp (took about 40 minutes, but was below 100 ˚F after about 10 minutes only). My SG was a little above target at 1.055 (looks like I got 75% efficiency, but had planned for 70%).

Whirlpooled and carefully poured the wort through a strainer to catch as much of the trub as possible. Stirred vigorously to aerate, pitched the tube of yeast, and stirred again. Fermented at around 75 ˚F (room temp). By the next day (~15 hours) there was a visible krausen.

 

[GlowingApple]

I should note I'm not sure what the flavor is... I don't think it's bitterness from the hops. I took a sample and added a few drops lactic acid to it and the off-flavor doesn't seem to be lactic acid. I'm guessing it's astringency. It does remind me of that teabag flavor, and has a really long lasting aftertaste, but doesn't taste grainy either.

 

[Sammy86]

My guess would be the temp from the yeast being too high. If your room temp was 75 then the wort got to anywhere from 80-85 degrees which is way higher than white labs recommends. The off flavor could be from some stressed out yeast...again just from looking at what you just said that would be my guess

 

[doug293cz]

Can you get a copy of your local water report? It needs to have alkalinity listed, as that is what is most important. It should also list things like hardness, calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), sulfate (SO4), chloride (not chlorine), sodium (Na), iron (Fe), etc. The EPA required reports that just list possible toxic contaminants aren't really useful to brewers.

Astringency is primarily caused by mash/wort pHthat is too high, and this is controlled by the water alkalinity, not the water pH. The grains will take care of the water pH, but may not have enough buffering power to overcome the alkalinity. Grain bits only cause problems if mash or wort pH is high. Otherwise, decoction mashes would always result in astringent beer (but they don't when pH is controlled.)

If you can't get a water report, or afford a pH meter (the strips are very inaccurate), then your best option is probably to start with reverse osmosis (RO) water. This is available at reasonable cost at grocery stores, Walmart, etc. It has very low ionic content and alkalinity, so you can then tailor your ion profile for to work with the grain bill of your recipe. Check out the Bru'n Water web site and spreadsheet. Reports say that it is very accurate at predicting mash pH. I use it, and haven't had astringent beer (but I also have low alkalinity water.)

Brew on

 

[Buckeye_Phil]

Water chemistry is one possibility, but with a bunch of roasted malt in the grain bill, I doubt it's a pH issue. If anything, it's that your water is geared more to pales than dark ales. Not prone to astringency, I wouldn't think. Good to check and be sure, though.

One thought I had, sounds like you kept the electric burner on to hold heat for the duration of the mash. Could it have overheated some of the grains on the bottom? I know you said the bulk temp held constant, but "direct firing" your mash like that could create some local hot spots. I did BIAB for years and rarely fired up the stovetop for that reason. Instead, I would mash in and wrap my kettle in a couple towels.

Also, your mash out could be another potential to scorch grains. You could do an infusion to raise the temp is your kettle had room. Or you could forego mash out and just squeeze the bag harder.

Lastly, I think time will help a lot. IME, stouts always take time to reach their peak. The roasted notes are often dominant a few weeks in, but after a month or two, everything mellows and the fermentation flavors come in to balance.

 

[Cider123]

Lastly, I think time will help a lot. IME, stouts always take time to reach their peak. The roasted notes are often dominant a few weeks in, but after a month or two, everything mellows and the fermentation flavors come in to balance.

+1 on this. Stouts can have funky flavors when they are green. Give it a few more weeks and look for improvement.

Also, I would try to ferment in the mid 60's, unless you're fermenting with a high temp yeast like 3711. But you wouldn't use something like that in a stout.

 

[jekeane]

Unrelated but Will your pot fit in your oven on warm instead of keeping it on the burner?

 

[Siberian]

I covered the kettle, and kept heating on low for 60 minutes

I think you have some grain astringency issues. Try this.... leave the dark and crystal malts that don't need to be mashed out of your bag until the last 15-20 minutes of the mash. Then toss them in and stir.

Avoid heating the bottom of the kettle directly during the mash at all.

I suspect your astringency issue will go away.

I got dinged on multiple scoresheets for slight astringency in nearly every beer out of my system, those process changes fixed it for me.

 

[TexasWine]

stirred in the grains, gradually, starting with the dark malts.

Just thinking out loud here, but does anyone else see this as a potential culprit? Could it be that these dark malts are seeing a high temp and a high pH because of how and when they're being added?

I'd try this. Put your dry, milled grain into the bag BEFORE putting it in the mash. Then just drop the bag full of grain in the water, stir out the dough balls, insulate and let it sit. That's how I dough in. Not mainstream, but it works.

 

[GlowingApple]

My guess would be the temp from the yeast being too high.

I know I'm brewing hotter than I should. I have a kegerator and can use it as a temperature controlled fermenter, but it was tied up cold crashing a hefeweizen.

Before that I brewed everything in my apartment, at ambient, which is usually around 75-80 ˚F. I've noticed many of my brews are more estery, but those flavors work ok in darker beers (in my opinion), and tend to age out well after a month or two.

I've never run into this kind of flavor before, and though I've never used this particular strain of yeast before, I'm more inclined to believe it's something with my all-grain process as that is a completely new variable with this batch.

 

[GlowingApple]

Can you get a copy of your local water report? It needs to have alkalinity listed, as that is what is most important. It should also list things like hardness, calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), sulfate (SO4), chloride (not chlorine), sodium (Na), iron (Fe), etc. The EPA required reports that just list possible toxic contaminants aren't really useful to brewers.

Astringency is primarily caused by mash/wort pHthat is too high, and this is controlled by the water alkalinity, not the water pH. The grains will take care of the water pH, but may not have enough buffering power to overcome the alkalinity. Grain bits only cause problems if mash or wort pH is high. Otherwise, decoction mashes would always result in astringent beer (but they don't when pH is controlled.)

If you can't get a water report, or afford a pH meter (the strips are very inaccurate), then your best option is probably to start with reverse osmosis (RO) water. This is available at reasonable cost at grocery stores, Walmart, etc. It has very low ionic content and alkalinity, so you can then tailor your ion profile for to work with the grain bill of your recipe. Check out the Bru'n Water web site and spreadsheet. Reports say that it is very accurate at predicting mash pH. I use it, and haven't had astringent beer (but I also have low alkalinity water.)

Brew on

This is the information I can get online from my local water company:

Water Quality Parameters (12/15/14)

pH (in pH units) = 7.81
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3) = 171 ppm
Total Hardness (CaCO3) = 198 ppm (13 grains per gallon)
Total Dissolved Solids = 322 ppm
Calcium = 58.0 ppm
Chloride = 22.6 ppm
Iron = <0.05 ppm
Manganese = 1.2 ppb
Sodium = 34.5 ppm
Sulfate = 82.7 ppm

 

[TexasWine]

I know I'm brewing hotter than I should. I have a kegerator and can use it as a temperature controlled fermenter, but it was tied up cold crashing a hefeweizen.

You could get a second temp controller, connect it to a heating pad, wrap it around the fermenting vessel, then wrap a sleeping bag on top of that. Drop it in the freezer that you're cold crashing in and set the temp to whatever you want to ferment at. I used to ferment in my keezer using this method up until a few months ago.

 

[GlowingApple]

I typically age my dark beers for a month or two before I find they are perfect for drinking, so I'll be patient with this one and see what happens!

I would like to brew another all-grain beer before then though, but want to make sure I don't have the same issue. As I'm just getting in to all-grain brewing, I didn't want to mess with too many variables, so I'd rather not have to deal with water chemistry (yet), but if it's the culprit I want to fix it. I like the taste of my tap water, and I know a number of brewers that use it and never have issues (but they are either extract brewers or are doing more traditional mashing and have a much thicker mash).

Or should I not mess with water chemistry the next batch and instead assume I scorched the grains and fix that variable instead?

One thought I had, sounds like you kept the electric burner on to hold heat for the duration of the mash. Could it have overheated some of the grains on the bottom? I know you said the bulk temp held constant, but "direct firing" your mash like that could create some local hot spots. I did BIAB for years and rarely fired up the stovetop for that reason. Instead, I would mash in and wrap my kettle in a couple towels.

Also, your mash out could be another potential to scorch grains. You could do an infusion to raise the temp is your kettle had room. Or you could forego mash out and just squeeze the bag harder.

When I turned my stove off the temperature started to drop (albeit slowly). Do you find with towels wrapped around the temp will hold for the entire 60 minute mash? Do you stir the mash occasionally while it's mashing, or just wrap it up and leave it for an hour?

I had to raise my stove to medium to bring the mash temp up for mash out, so now that I think about it there's a chance the grain bed was hotter than 170 &#730;F at times. Since I don't have to worry about a stuck sparge with BIAB, is there any benefit to doing a mash-out? Does it just improve efficiency? If so I'll just skip that step in the future then and plan for a little lower efficiency.

Unrelated but Will your pot fit in your oven on warm instead of keeping it on the burner?

No, unfortunately it's too tall, even with a single shelf on the lowest bar.

I think you have some grain astringency issues. Try this.... leave the dark and crystal malts that don't need to be mashed out of your bag until the last 15-20 minutes of the mash. Then toss them in and stir.

Just thinking out loud here, but does anyone else see this as a potential culprit? Could it be that these dark malts are seeing a high temp and a high pH because of how and when they're being added?

I know that the dark malts help to lower the mash pH, so I figured putting them in first would help ensure the lowest pH possible. Putting them in last I'm certain my water pH would be well above the proper pH. Wouldn't that promote more astringency?

 

[doug293cz]

This is the information I can get online from my local water company:

Water Quality Parameters (12/15/14)

pH (in pH units) = 7.81
&#65532;Total Alkalinity (CaCO3) = 171 ppm
Total Hardness (CaCO3) = 198 ppm (13 grains per gallon)
Total Dissolved Solids = 322 ppm
Calcium = 58.0 ppm
Chloride = 22.6 ppm
Iron = <0.05 ppm
Manganese = 1.2 ppb
Sodium = 34.5 ppm
Sulfate = 82.7 ppm

This water report is either incomplete or has errors, as the anions and cations don't balance out (which isn't actually possible.) And the Ca, hardness and alkalinity numbers don't seem to mesh. Are there other elements listed in the report that you didn't put in here (like magnesium or potassium)?

I put your grain bill and water profile (fudged to get with extra calcium to get an anion/cation balance) into Bru'nWater, and got a predicted mash pH of approximately 6. This is too high, and could have resulted in astringency.

Your water is pretty alkaline, and also has a lot of sodium (which could affect flavor.) Doesn't seem like a good water for all grain brewing without adjustments. You need to add some acid (lactic or phosphoric) or acidulated malt to the mash in order to bring the mash pH down into the 5.3 - 5.5 range.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I would like to brew another all-grain beer before then though, but want to make sure I don't have the same issue. As I'm just getting in to all-grain brewing, I didn't want to mess with too many variables, so I'd rather not have to deal with water chemistry (yet), but if it's the culprit I want to fix it. I like the taste of my tap water, and I know a number of brewers that use it and never have issues (but they are either extract brewers or are doing more traditional mashing and have a much thicker mash).

Or should I not mess with water chemistry the next batch and instead assume I scorched the grains and fix that variable instead?

Unfortunately, it looks like you need to adjust your water chemistry. Too much alkalinity for even a beer with significant dark malt content. Lighter beers would be even worse.

I had to raise my stove to medium to bring the mash temp up for mash out, so now that I think about it there's a chance the grain bed was hotter than 170 &#730;F at times. Since I don't have to worry about a stuck sparge with BIAB, is there any benefit to doing a mash-out? Does it just improve efficiency? If so I'll just skip that step in the future then and plan for a little lower efficiency.

A mash out will only improve your efficiency if the starch conversion was incomplete. It just gives you a few more minutes of mash time at a higher rate of saccharification (because of the higher temp), but that faster saccharification stops when the amylase gets denatured (which takes a few minutes at 168 - 170.) If your conversion is incomplete during the mash time used, the best ways to address it are with finer grind (which converts faster) and/or longer mash time. Mash outs are really only needed when fly sparging in oder to prevent the wort from becoming too fermentable.

Brew on

 

[Roboutwest]

I Just want to chip in here and say I have been battling a very similar problem with my BIAB brews over the last year. I have fairly similar water (Alkaline, ph 8, similar salts with more chloride) and have made many fine ales that have been judged as lacking in flaws (and tasty ) by those who know far more about brewing than I. Then, I started making English Ales with less grain (higher liquor to grain ratio) and long boils (which means even higher liquor to grain with Biab). The beers taste fine as wort, then suddenly morph to astringency/harsh bitterness as they ferment. Oddly, the US style beers have not had any of these issues and taste great from wort to drinking out of the keg for months.

I naturally suspected infection despite rigorous cleaning, but there was no sign of a pellicle or anything but healthy yeast in any of the temperature controlled ferments. Nonetheless I replaced fermenters, hoses and tore down the brewery to soak everything in PBW before acid sanitising. Next batch of English strong ale was just the same, the following rebrew even worse...

I am starting to suspect process as well. The failures have in common a high liquor to grain ratio and long mashes and boils. The worst were also high alcohol beers. Perhaps I get away with it on all grain beers with normal mashes and boils. The fault is a harshness and a blocking of the usual malt and hop flavour profiles. In some lower gravity beers, this has reduced with ageing, but in the high gravity ones it has been so awful I didn't bother waiting. If I use a characterful yeast, I notice good esters and other yeast-derived elements, but all ruined by this fault that makes it taste like one of my worst extract beers with no temp control.

Long story short: tomorrow I am brewing with a borrowed mash tun. I have read that if your water is borderline, full volume mashing can increase its influence. Hopefully with my calculated water treatment the smaller mash will lock in the flavour profile. Additionally, I am a bit concerned with boiling cloudy wort for a couple of hours. This will be a chance to try a batch of clear wort. We'll see...

 

[GlowingApple]

This water report is either incomplete or has errors

That is all the information I have from the water report I can get online. I could try to call LWS to see if they have more data that they could give me. The report is available online here.

Unfortunately, it looks like you need to adjust your water chemistry. Too much alkalinity for even a beer with significant dark malt content. Lighter beers would be even worse.

I did a test with some lactic acid. In 5 gallons I can taste a very very subtle "brighter" flavor in plain water with 6.0 mL, but practically nothing with 4.0 mL. It does make the water taste softer (to be expected with any pH adjustment), but I think adding 4 mL would be fine and matches with Bru'nWater. So for my next batch I think I'll add more lactic acid. I'm planning on getting a cheap pH meter (one of the $20 ones from Amazon). I don't think I can afford a high quality meter, but one that's accurate to ±0.1, and calibrated, should be close enough to start I think.

A mash out will only improve your efficiency if the starch conversion was incomplete. It just gives you a few more minutes of mash time at a higher rate of saccharification (because of the higher temp), but that faster saccharification stops when the amylase gets denatured (which takes a few minutes at 168 - 170.).

I took SG's during mashing, using my refractometer, and adjusted them considering I would be concentrating the initial mash volume to 5.0 gallons while boiling.

~5 min: 1.041
15 min: 1.056
45 min: 1.064
60 min: 1.063
Iodine test showed negative for starch
Mash-out: 1.065

After removal of grain bag and squeezing: 1.057
OG into fermentor: 1.055 (using hydrometer rather than refractometer)

It doesn't look like the mash-out actually did any more conversion. I'm not sure if my SG adjustments were not accurate, or if I lost 8 points stuck to the grain?

It could be that the mash-out also helps with recovery of sugars from the grain bag? But for my next batch I think skipping the mash-out step would be best. I can always add that step back in (if it seems to be necessary) once I have narrowed down the flavor issue.

Long story short: tomorrow I am brewing with a borrowed mash tun. I have read that if your water is borderline, full volume mashing can increase its influence. Hopefully with my calculated water treatment the smaller mash will lock in the flavour profile. Additionally, I am a bit concerned with boiling cloudy wort for a couple of hours. This will be a chance to try a batch of clear wort. We'll see...

I didn't notice the astringent flavor when I tasted the sweet wort, but I'm guessing that was because the sugars masked the off flavor. I'm interested to hear what you find; please let me know how your brew turns out!

 

[cooper]

Something that helped me out before I got a whole-house water softener (salt-free) was to cut my water with storebought 50/50, usually distilled, and collect all my water the night before and add acid, usually phosphoric, to the whole amount to get it down to a PH of 5.5. That way I knew for SURE the PH wasn't going to go up over 6 and cause any issues. If I had the option I would also add my dark grains in at vorlauf. Another thing I started doing was cleaning my ball valves every three or four brews after seeing this from brulosophy.

 

[Siberian]

I know that the dark malts help to lower the mash pH, so I figured putting them in first would help ensure the lowest pH possible. Putting them in last I'm certain my water pH would be well above the proper pH. Wouldn't that promote more astringency?

My well water PH is pretty similar to yours (PH 7.4), what I found instead was that instead I treat my water with Phosphoric acid so that my PH when mashing falls consistently between 5.2 - 5.5 on my test strips.

Here's my water breakdown:

PH 7.4
TDS 311ppm
Cations/Anions, me/L 5.3/5.7

(all PPM)
Sodium 11
Potassium <1
Calcium 63
Magnesium 19
Total Hardness CaCO3 237
Nitrate .1
Sulfate 10
Chloride 20
Bicabonate 274
Total Alkalinity CaC03 235
Total Phosphorus <0.01
Total Iron, FE .31​

I treat my water with .5 ml per gallon of 88% Phosphoric Acid. I only mash my base malts that need to be mashed for the full duration and it's super easy because then I never have to try to re-do the water profile for every recipe. Instead I know if I just toss in my .5 ml/per gallon when heating up my water I'll be on target 10 minutes into the mash.

Before reading Gordon Strong's book and adopting this method my PH was all over the place even if I tried to predict it using a brewing water spreadsheet on a per batch basis.

 

[Roboutwest]

So... I did a stout with a normal mash tun and US-05. The brew went ok, although I didn't hit my mash temp and ended up mashing at 67 a little thinner than I had wanted. It dried out to 1.006, which was a bit further than I'd wanted. Also, I batch sparked for the first time and I forgot to check if the runnings were above 1.010 at the end.

After the fermentation got going it still had the sharp astringent quality, although no other off flavours. After a week it decreased. Now at kegging/bottling after 5 or 6 days at 10 deg C clearing it has improved even further and is quite pleasant, but there is still that aspect of the malt profile being obscured.

What I don't understand is that if the problem were astringency from grain, would it decrease over time? Would water profile explain this development? I tried another beer that had the same issues yesterday after ages in a keg and the malt profile was completely back to normal showing toffee, coffee and caramel as the grain bill would suggest. In the past these aspects were stable from fermentation to the glass.

I think my next experiment, given I had BIAB beers better than the last using a mash tun, is to try buying spring water in.

Any ideas from the community would be appreciated.

 

[Gavin C]

You are fermenting hot. This will entirely supersede any mashing issues

Answer. Ferment cooler.

Mashing issues.

If you need to constantly apply heat to you mash you need to be constantly and adequately stirring. If not you WILL get hot spots with associated risks of astringency if doing full-volume mashing.

All the ducks are in a row. High temps and potentential for high pH.

this is in my view the most under appreciated disadvantage of full-volume mashing. thankfully it is easily rectified.

 

[SweetStout]

if it makes you feel any better, after many years of successful brewing, I recently changed equipment and suddenly I have a similar issue to what you're describing.

I recently got an ebiab system. My main reason for doing so was to switch to electric - biab was just a side effect but I wanted to check it out. Previously I have been brewing AG for 20+ years and have had excellent results with fly and batch sparging. My water chemistry is similar to yours, although my alkalinity isn't as high (110-120).

I now have the same issues you're describing and I am sure it is due to pH issues related to the high water volume used in BIAB.

I've only got three batches in on the eBIAB system so far. The first one I planned to be a throwaway. I really just wanted to learn the system and walk through the whole process, and expose all those new surfaces to wort to leach away any residues before dumping. I just used 6 lbs of pale malt and 6 gallons of water (4 qts per lb). The result was incredibly astringent and there was a huge amount of grey-ish trub. I've never seen anything like it. I was planning to dump it, and I did.

second batch, let's brew some beer. At this point I acknowledged the need to get pH under control, so I bought a pH meter. I added 2% acidulated malt to an otherwise average IPA recipe to get the mash around pH 5.6 and the beer came out pretty well. I just kegged it yesterday and it looked promising.

Efficiency on that batch was 62%. I am not normally concerned about efficiency, but that's lower than I'd like. I usually got batch-sparge efficiency around 75-ish% . I understand that BIAB can use a finer crush. I'll keep tweaking that.

3rd batch was a sweet stout where I tried a hybird approach, using my eBIAB as an electric kettle but keeping my water/grain ratio in the mash much smaller (2qts / lb). I heated all the mash and sparge water first, then drew off a lot of water to give me 2qts / lb mash thickness. Given the geometry of my eBIAB I don't think I can go lower than this, although I might think about modifications to reduce dead space. After the mash was finished I drained off the 1st runnings, added reserved hot water as a batch sparge and went from there. Efficiency was higher and so far this hybrid method also avoided high pH and astringency.

I may resign myself to some pH management from now on. However, I am leaning towards more of a hybrid between my old 3-vessel system and the new electric system. I may just end up using my electric BIAB as a kettle and mash with a grain-water ratio closer to what I am used to using in AG brewing (e.g., 1.25 qts per pound).

I am very happy with how well the electric kettle heats water. But, if my choices are to brew eBIAB with lots of attention to mash pH, or go back to batch&fly sparging - given that I already have coolers to mash regular sparging seems like the way to go for me. If BIAB requires a lot of monitoring of pH to prevent astringency, then I see it as a big step backwards IMO.

 

[RM-MN]

if it makes you feel any better, after many years of successful brewing, I recently changed equipment and suddenly I have a similar issue to what you're describing.

I recently got an ebiab system. My main reason for doing so was to switch to electric - biab was just a side effect but I wanted to check it out. Previously I have been brewing AG for 20+ years and have had excellent results with fly and batch sparging. My water chemistry is similar to yours, although my alkalinity isn't as high (110-120).

I now have the same issues you're describing and I am sure it is due to pH issues related to the high water volume used in BIAB.

I've only got three batches in on the eBIAB system so far. The first one I planned to be a throwaway. I really just wanted to learn the system and walk through the whole process, and expose all those new surfaces to wort to leach away any residues before dumping. I just used 6 lbs of pale malt and 6 gallons of water (4 qts per lb). The result was incredibly astringent and there was a huge amount of grey-ish trub. I've never seen anything like it. I was planning to dump it, and I did.

second batch, let's brew some beer. At this point I acknowledged the need to get pH under control, so I bought a pH meter. I added 2% acidulated malt to an otherwise average IPA recipe to get the mash around pH 5.6 and the beer came out pretty well. I just kegged it yesterday and it looked promising.

Efficiency on that batch was 62%. I am not normally concerned about efficiency, but that's lower than I'd like. I usually got batch-sparge efficiency around 75-ish% . I understand that BIAB can use a finer crush. I'll keep tweaking that.

3rd batch was a sweet stout where I tried a hybird approach, using my eBIAB as an electric kettle but keeping my water/grain ratio in the mash much smaller (2qts / lb). I heated all the mash and sparge water first, then drew off a lot of water to give me 2qts / lb mash thickness. Given the geometry of my eBIAB I don't think I can go lower than this, although I might think about modifications to reduce dead space. After the mash was finished I drained off the 1st runnings, added reserved hot water as a batch sparge and went from there. Efficiency was higher and so far this hybrid method also avoided high pH and astringency.

I may resign myself to some pH management from now on. However, I am leaning towards more of a hybrid between my old 3-vessel system and the new electric system. I may just end up using my electric BIAB as a kettle and mash with a grain-water ratio closer to what I am used to using in AG brewing (e.g., 1.25 qts per pound).

I am very happy with how well the electric kettle heats water. But, if my choices are to brew eBIAB with lots of attention to mash pH, or go back to batch&fly sparging - given that I already have coolers to mash regular sparging seems like the way to go for me. If BIAB requires a lot of monitoring of pH to prevent astringency, then I see it as a big step backwards IMO.

I used a pH meter a few times to determine what addition I needed to make to keep my pH in line. From then on it was just measure out the acid and dump it in as I stirred in the grain. Not much of a problem.

 

[Hellosluggo]

In regard to pH meters, don't worry about spending a lot of money on one if you're just starting out. I have a super cheap meter that works well, and I've read more than a few accounts that the cheap meters are preferred for our needs over the more expensive (and more sensitive) meters. Just look for one with ATC (automatic temperature compensation) so you don't have to mess with temperature correction to get a good read. Also, get one of the bundles that includes buffer solution powder so you can calibrate and test the meter before using it on brew day.

Here's pretty much exactly the same meter I have: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YXDFSLG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

More of the same buffer packets are available for cheap on eBay. Order a few pairs to keep your meter calibrated: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321569547086?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[Gavin C]

Bad advice there. ATC is a feature if all modern pH meters. It's inbuilt into the device ensuring the measured gradient across the probe tip is concerted to a pH value.

It's not the same as a temperature correction tool with a hydrometer for example. This is a common misperception.

Unless a meter can give you more accurate and stable readings than using a water calculator blind, you are wasting your money.

No data is better than bad data

There are some very informative threads in the brew science forum covering all this in a lot more and better detail.

 

[SweetStout]

I used a pH meter a few times to determine what addition I needed to make to keep my pH in line. From then on it was just measure out the acid and dump it in as I stirred in the grain. Not much of a problem.

Do you adjust for different malts / styles or for different water:grain ratios depending on how big a beer you're brewing?

 

[Gavin C]

Every mash is different but every mash does require acid to get the pH in range.

This comes in many forms

• Roast Malts
• Crystal Malts
• Acid Malts
• Lactic or phosphoric acid

Some of the above will be needed in any mash to get the requisite H+ ions

The thinner the mash the greater the dilution of the acid. Thinner mashes require more acid to reach a target pH than a thicker mash of the same grain-bill does.

Every mash therefore requires a calculation regardless of the type of manifold used or mash thickness. This is not unique to BIAB but is of greater relevance with thinner mashes. Not a big task to calculate where the acid is coming from.

Another way that takes hours is to carry out a Beta-glucan rest to produce enough phytic acid to lower the pH to desired levels. This requires the use of under modified malts where the phytase enzyme is still intact. I mention it only for thoroughness and have never done this.

 

[browder]

What's a good Ph tester to get ?

 

[Gavin C]

What's a good Ph tester to get ?

There are a few that have been tested by users and have been shown to give stable readings. This is one of the benchmarks for acceptability. There is a good thread in the brew-science forum covering this in some detail.

You want

• 2 point calibration
• Manual calibration
• Reading stability
• Replaceable probe
• Resolution 0.01
• Accuracy +/-0.01 *Not exactly true owing to some mathematical stuff*

I went with the Hach Pro+

I've not had any issues with the meter thus far. (At least none that I'm aware of)

Meter and solutions. (Storage solution is not needed for this meter)