Extract vs AG brewing questions?

[Vetter]

I am new to brewing, and have brewed about 5 batches of extract, all 5 gallons, which have all turned out delicious IMO. I am pretty much hooked into the whole home brewing concept now.
I am in the process of upgrading equipment, and would eventually like to start doing 10 gallon batches, but still have the option of 5 gallon if need be.
I have also contemplated the idea of moving to AG brewing, which seems to be the next step everyone takes in the home brewing adventure, but I really haven't found anything explaining the pro's and/or con's of Extract over AG?
Sorry if this is a obvious question to most.

 

[billl]

I think you may have some misconceptions from reading brewing sites. The VAST majority of homebrewers never brew an AG batch. What you find on these boards is a small subset of brewers who are so into the hobby that they want to chat about it all the time and help others get involved.

There are lots of threads about the pluses and minuses, but it basically boils down to more options in AG. You control the process from start to finish and get to make various choices along the way that impact the final product. Having more choices doesn't automatically make better beer, but it does provide a lot of room for you to make the exact beer that you want to make.

 

[BigFloyd]

AG is more involved. More time and more work since you're making it from scratch. It requires close attention to mash temp and other variables that come with mashing the milled grains.

On the plus side, the ability to totally customize your beer is great as is the knowledge that you made it fresh from square one.

I'd suggest that you start by looking into 5 gallon BIAB batches. You'll need a big (10 gallon or larger) kettle and a mesh BIAB bag. It's a good way to get your feet wet doing AG. I still do BIAB (the electric version) even through I have a mash tun too.

If you haven't already done so, get a firm handle on controlling pitch and ferment temps. That, along with pitching enough yeast have a greater impact on the quality of your brews than AG vs. extract.

 

[NedStackey]

Another thing is that AG will be the freshest you can make. You never know how long that extract has been sitting on a shelf and old extract will give you some off flavors.

AG is the way to go. You can build a mash tun for about $40 from parts from Home Depot. Good luck!

 

[rlmiller10]

I think you may have some misconceptions from reading brewing sites. The VAST majority of homebrewers never brew an AG batch. What you find on these boards is a small subset of brewers who are so into the hobby that they want to chat about it all the time and help others get involved.

There are lots of threads about the pluses and minuses, but it basically boils down to more options in AG. You control the process from start to finish and get to make various choices along the way that impact the final product. Having more choices doesn't automatically make better beer, but it does provide a lot of room for you to make the exact beer that you want to make.

+1 for all Bill said. Plus you get the extra satisfaction of starting from scratch. And lets not forget that wonderful smell of malt when you pull the lid off the mash tun.

To me mashing is about the most fun part. To see a bag of dry grain which is tan in color with just a bit of black malt, produce a rich dark brown wort full of sweet aromas and flavors is just amazing. After that it becomes more work, moving things around, watching a boil (smells great but no big changes), trying to cool (keep that ice in my source water container moving), trying to aerate (really need to get an O2 system) and then clean up.

 

[jekeane]

I think of it as Duncan Hines boxed brownie mix vs making brownies from scratch. Duncan Hines makes a pretty consistent, quick, good, sometimes great brownie. On the other hand made from scratch brownies which take more work can be perfected over time through playing with ingredients to give the best brownie possible.

mmm brownies

 

[dobe12]

AG is more involved. More time and more work since you're making it from scratch. It requires close attention to mash temp and other variables that come with mashing the milled grains.

On the plus side, the ability to totally customize your beer is great as is the knowledge that you made it fresh from square one.

I'd suggest that you start by looking into 5 gallon BIAB batches. You'll need a big (10 gallon or larger) kettle and a mesh BIAB bag. It's a good way to get your feet wet doing AG. I still do BIAB (the electric version) even through I have a mash tun too.

If you haven't already done so, get a firm handle on controlling pitch and ferment temps. That, along with pitching enough yeast have a greater impact on the quality of your brews than AG vs. extract.

I would second this ^^^^. Look into getting a 15 gallon pot if you want to brew 10 gallon batches. If you want to stick with 5 gallon batches, get a 10 gallon pot. Then all you need is a burner if you don't already have one and a grain sack. A wort chiller is also a good idea when talking about full volume boils. I switched from extract to partial mash to all grain BIAB about 3 years ago and haven't looked back. BIAB will allow you to get into all grain while keeping your costs low.

Extract is quick and easy, but to me it's kinda like making soup from a packet of seasoning. Sure it will taste good and is a minimalist approach, but wouldn't you rather create your own soup from scratch? All grain allows so much more flexibility and customization.

Don't let the idea of all grain worry you. Jump in. It's not hard at all. It's really only as hard as you make it.



PS: If you want to buy a big fancy brew pot with a valve, thermometer, etc, great... but if looking to go cheap and simple, there are very reasonably priced aluminum stock pots on amazon. 10 gallons for under $50 and 15 gallons for around $70. Or check any local restaurant supply stores near you. They ALWAYS carry large stock pots and reasonable prices.

 

[Vetter]

Thanks everyone, all excellent information.
I should clarify, I do have most the equipment needed for extract, 30 qt pot, wort chiller, a few Carboys, and just purchased a Blichman floor burner(Excellent purchase).
I have been experimenting with ferment temps too, I just brewed a Pale Ale which didn't start fermenting at all in my lower room (60*) for two days, so I moved it up stairs (65*) and the yeast is happy now. I tend to ferment everything as low as possible, just from the information I have read.

 

[dobe12]

Thanks everyone, all excellent information.
I should clarify, I do have most the equipment needed for extract, 30 qt pot, wort chiller, a few Carboys, and just purchased a Blichman floor burner(Excellent purchase).
I have been experimenting with ferment temps too, I just brewed a Pale Ale which didn't start fermenting at all in my lower room (60*) for two days, so I moved it up stairs (65*) and the yeast is happy now. I tend to ferment everything as low as possible, just from the information I have read.

Well then your 90% of the way there, IMO. A larger pot is not mandatory, but trust me, it will be a huge help. I used a 30qt pot for a while, but you really max out it's capacity with an average to slightly above average grain bill. A 40 or 50qt pot will really help with bigger beers, larger batches, and just overall ease of your brew day. So, bigger pot and a large grain sack and you're all ready to start all grain BIAB.

Check out Adventures in Homebrewing. They have a 24"x24" grain sack that works great in a 10gal pot. I haven't seen that size sack anywhere else. Most places sell a 18"x32" which is long and thin. It works, but the 24x24 give you more room to mix, stir, etc.

 

[Nightshade]

AG is more work than Extract but honestly I don't feel it is as bad as people make it out to be, it is all in the forming of a process and knowing that an all grain brew is going to take you anywhere for 6.5 to 8 hours on average. Once you have it down a 6.5hr day brewing will be your average day.

It takes a little more equipment and a little more attention paid but in the end it is the difference (IMO) between buying a race car pre-built and spending time building it yourself to your desires and needs.

 

[dtgrdn]

Check out Adventures in Homebrewing. They have a 24"x24" grain sack that works great in a 10gal pot. I haven't seen that size sack anywhere else. Most places sell a 18"x32" which is long and thin. It works, but the 24x24 give you more room to mix, stir, etc.

My lhbs sells the 24"x24" sacks, they also carry 29"x29":

http://www.baderbrewing.com/products/wine-fermenting-equipment-brew-bag/24-x-24-straining-bag-nylon

 

[philipCT]

I was right where you are last October. I was impressed with my extract beers but I felt there was a certain sameness to them and I felt there was more I could do. I'm pretty technical/geeky so I had no fear about being able to grok the complexities and intricacies of the AG process. Actually, the opposite. The more complex and intricate, and the more challenging, the better (heh, heh).

I already had built temperature control fermentation chambers (converted fridges with digital ctl), and was using a convoluted chiller for partial boils, so I had gotten that part of the technique down pretty well.

Like you, I wondered about a 5 gallon system vs. a ten gallon system. I ended up going with the 10 gallon system (20 gallon pots and a 70qt cooler/mashtun). I'm glad I did, but note, it's slightly easier now to do a 10 gallon batch than a 5 gallon batch. The larger batch is better matched to the equipment and holds temps better all around.

The AG brews I've made have been really fantastic. I'm now deeply into it and customize my water chemistry per recipe. I'm measuring and balancing pH using a pH meter. I use a refractometer. Each of which I brought into the process one by one when I wanted to so it wasn't overwhelming.

I'm having a ball and brewing better beer than ever. I'm sure you will too.

 

[fuzzy2133]

Do not be afraid of the time it takes to brew AG. We all have our own process that works for us. I like to mill my grains and pull gear out the night before so my "brew day" looks shorter.

 

[Terek]

I prefer all grain mainly because it is more involved. I dont even like helping my buddy do extract batches anymore because its just kind of boring. throw everything in a pot and boil it. End up spending more time drinking than brewing. All grain is a science, and easy as well. I like to get the most out of my brew days. A lot of people try and find the best ways to make it go as fast as possible and be done with it. Im the complete opposit. I want more time spent brewing, and tend to do things slower to get a whole day out of it. Its not uncommon for me and my wife to start a batch at 8am and be finishing up cleaning everything at 3pm.
Also as others have said, you get to customize your brew more. Make it unique. I have an oat stout that has won a few medals and is a huge hit with my family and friends that has 9 different kinds of malt in it. You could never replicate it with extract.
Then there is the taste. I find extract brews good, but have a "preserved" taste to them. All grain has more of a "fresh" taste, but this is all IMO.

 

[MarathonMurse]

Going from extract with specialty grains to AG BIAB takes absolutely zero more time or effort.

I used to steep grains for an hour in a grain sack, then add that to a boil, then put in extracts, hops, etc. Now I mash (the biggest difference from steeping being the spelling) a much larger sack of grains for the same hour, add to a boil, and add hops, etc.

No more effort, many more options, much lower cost (20# of grain and 4# of extract cost about the same). I urge everyone I can to at least give BIAB a shot.

 

[dobe12]

AG is more work than Extract but honestly I don't feel it is as bad as people make it out to be, it is all in the forming of a process and knowing that an all grain brew is going to take you anywhere for 6.5 to 8 hours on average. Once you have it down a 6.5hr day brewing will be your average day.

It takes a little more equipment and a little more attention paid but in the end it is the difference (IMO) between buying a race car pre-built and spending time building it yourself to your desires and needs.

I BIAB, 5 gallon batches with a batch sparge and my brew days run just about 4hrs. If doing a longer mash, longer boil, etc. maybe it could take 6hrs, but on average I'm about 4 to 4.5hrs.

 

[Nightshade]

I BIAB, 5 gallon batches with a batch sparge and my brew days run just about 4hrs. If doing a longer mash, longer boil, etc. maybe it could take 6hrs, but on average I'm about 4 to 4.5hrs.

I am brewing 3bbl batches all grain pre-ground and have it down including cleanup to anywhere between 6-7 hours at most barring any mishaps along the way.

 

[NickTheGreat]

I don't think AG is that much more work than extract. Mashing grain is awesome. That beautiful smell (and taste) of the roasted malts. Extracts always made my hands and tables sticky and nasty.

Get yourself a cheap cooler at a garage sale and a few sticks of copper pipe for a mash tun. You've got everything else

 

[Terek]

Do not be afraid of the time it takes to brew AG. We all have our own process that works for us. I like to mill my grains and pull gear out the night before so my "brew day" looks shorter.

i always prep the night before. Everything seems to go smoother and there are less problems/mistakes when i do this. almost every "spur of the moment" all grain brews i have done turn out not so great

 

[Hello]

I think you may have some misconceptions from reading brewing sites. The VAST majority of homebrewers never brew an AG batch. What you find on these boards is a small subset of brewers who are so into the hobby that they want to chat about it all the time and help others get involved.

There are lots of threads about the pluses and minuses, but it basically boils down to more options in AG. You control the process from start to finish and get to make various choices along the way that impact the final product. Having more choices doesn't automatically make better beer, but it does provide a lot of room for you to make the exact beer that you want to make.

I love this kind of level-headed and neutral response to these questions. I'm new to the hobby, newer to AG and the only reason I moved to AG was when I brewed a not-so-pale ale using LME. I understand that DME can help control color but it is even more expensive. To me, AG was a way for me to brew lighter beers that were actually lighter in color. For some reason in my wacky head, this was important to me.

Bill has it asbolutely correct in what he is writing. What extract can give you is consistent results but so can AG once you dial in things like how your setup will work for you; and it should work for you, you shouldn't have to work for it.

I think of it as Duncan Hines boxed brownie mix vs making brownies from scratch. Duncan Hines makes a pretty consistent, quick, good, sometimes great brownie. On the other hand made from scratch brownies which take more work can be perfected over time through playing with ingredients to give the best brownie possible.

mmm brownies

Hey, Duncan Hines makes a fine ass brownie. All the love for the box.


OP, I will say that going AG has allowed me to do things like mash cocoa husks to get a very nice chocolate flavor in my milk chocolate stout. It has given me headaches because I miss gravities and boil volumes but it has been a wonderful learning experience. Many will say BIAB is the way to jump from extract to AG and I don't disagree but best be ready to have a way to lift 12+ pounds of wet grain in a box from a kettle high enough so it can drain. I overshot my ability to lift 14 lbs of wet grain basically over my head and pulled a muscle last Friday. I am not weak by any means but I am indeed ill-equipped to lift 14 lbs of grain plus whatever the water it is holding weighs above a pot that was sitting at chest height. BIAB is wonderful though again, once you dial in your equipment.

In the end though, you can continue to brew delicious, wonderful, even award-winning beer (if entered) using extract and I bet so long as you don't have DMS issues, none the wiser of the process that you used to get there. I realize there are people who are so into their process that they'll disagree but generally speaking, homebrewers are welcoming of the various process and the end game is that we all just want to make and drink great beer.

 

[sy2088]

If you have the equipment and enjoy the process of AG, it is worth it. However, if you do not want to spend so much time and money you can brew pretty good beer with extracts.

 

[MarathonMurse]

If you have the equipment and enjoy the process of AG, it is worth it. However, if you do not want to spend so much time and money you can brew pretty good beer with extracts.

AG using a BIAB setup is much MUCH less expensive than extract brews, and adds precisely 0 minutes and 0 seconds to my brew day.

 

[ncbrewer]

The mash is magic.