Every beer i brew has a similar "Grainy" taste

[Schlomo]

I've been brewing for a good amount of time (on and off for 5 years), but haven't been able to pinpoint the cause of this very distinct grainy off flavor in almost every one of my beers. Over those years my setup has changed with almost every brew, but i've got it down to a point where I want it and thats where its staying.. Its not very prevalent in Stouts or other similar beers, but my IPA's all have a very distinct grainy aftertaste. Its hard to describe, but basically when i take a drink i get a good flavor, then after maybe 2-3 seconds i start to get this grainy flavor and at about the 5-8 second mark its a very strong grainy flavor.

I did notice that I was getting some stuck mash recirculations through my HERMS setup, and fixed that by adjusting my mill crush (it was way over crushing). The other thing I read is boil vigor. I get about a 1Gallon/Hr boil off rate for 5 gal batches, and about .7G/Hr for a 10Gal batch with my 2000w and 1500w 120v setup.


I just brewed 2 beers with a less aggressive crush last weekend and i'll wait and see what happens i guess, but for now im stuck drinking sub-par homebrew...

 

[RichBenn]

Check your ph, especially during sparging.

 

[brandonnys]

What's your grain bill on the IPAs?

 

[Schlomo]

What's your grain bill on the IPAs?

Last IPA was a while ago, so i dont remember. But the last beer I brewed that had a distinct grain flavor was -

18lb 2 row
4.5 lbs Vienna
2 lbs Crystal 10

2oz Cascade at 60
1oz Cascade at 30
1oz cascade at 15
0.5oz cascade at flameout

2pkgs of Nottingham

Looking at it now i see it is alot of base malt. Should i be doing more specialty malts?

 

[LLBeanJ]

What is your water? Are you controlling for pH? That IPA recipe has high pH written all over it if you're not adding salts and acid to the mash & sparge.

 

[Schlomo]

What is your water? Are you controlling for pH? That IPA recipe has high pH written all over it if you're not adding salts and acid to the mash.

I always add 5.2 stabilizer for every one of my brews. Check with those little strips and its always right around 5.2

 

[LLBeanJ]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. 5.2 stabilizer is worthless and could very well be hurting your beer. Seriously, you don't want this in your beer. Also, the strips are not reliable. What is the source of your water?

When I started brewing, I used to use the strips and they always showed I was in the zone. My beer was so-so. Then I started looking at my water and adding the right minerals and some acid to control pH based on the recipe. The improvement in my beer was night & day. Turns out the strips were lying to me.

 

[Schlomo]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. 5.2 stabilizer is worthless and could very well be hurting your beer. Seriously, you don't want this in your beer. Also, the strips are not reliable. What is the source of your water?

When I started brewing, I used to use the strips and they always showed I was in the zone. My beer was so-so. Then I started looking at my water and adding the right minerals and some acid to control pH based on the recipe. The improvement in my beer was night & day. Turns out the strips were lying to me.

Hmm good to know. It is city water, but i've not ever done a test on it. I just run it through one of those RV Water filters and call it a day with the 5.2 stabilizer.

What would you suggest? Should i send it in to get tested? Or should i get some other type of device for measuring PH?

 

[Mainer]

Hmm good to know. It is city water, but i've not ever done a test on it. I just run it through one of those RV Water filters and call it a day with the 5.2 stabilizer.

What would you suggest? Should i send it in to get tested? Or should i get some other type of device for measuring PH?

I think the city is required to make a water quality test available free of charge for any municipal system. That would be a great place to start.

 

[Mainer]

Hmm good to know. It is city water, but i've not ever done a test on it. I just run it through one of those RV Water filters and call it a day with the 5.2 stabilizer.

What would you suggest? Should i send it in to get tested? Or should i get some other type of device for measuring PH?

Here's the Howell, Michigan public water report from 2013.
http://www.cityofhowell.org/document_center/2013_Water_Quality_Report.pdf

 

[LLBeanJ]

See if you can get a water report from the city. Mine has it posted on their website. Once you have it, try using a water calculator, like the one on Brewerfriend.com. Enter a recipe and your water's parameters and see what mineral/acid additions are needed to bring the pH into the 5.2-5.6 range.

If you can't find a report, try using RO water and building it up with minerals on your next brew. Most light brews will require acid (I use acidulated malt), as well as a little gypsum and calcium chloride. Not uncommon to use Epsom salt, as well. Try this and see if the graininess is still present.

Edit: Okay, you found your water report. Good start.

Edit2: Upon further review, that water report doesn't contain much useful info for brewing. It gives total hardness, but no mineral info. You can try calling the water dept and see if you can get a breakdown on mineral info or you can send a sample out for testing to Ward Labs.

Also, since it states chlorine is added, you should be doing something to mitigate this. Filtering won't do it. Campden tablets are cheap and easy. If you decide to try a brew with RO, you can skip the Campden.

 

[Dolomieu]

See if you can get a water report from the city. Mine has it posted on their website. Once you have it, try using a water calculator, like the one on Brewerfriend.com. Enter a recipe and your water's parameters and see what mineral/acid additions are needed to bring the pH into the 5.2-5.6 range.

If you can't find a report, try using RO water and building it up with minerals on your next brew. Most light brews will require acid (I use acidulated malt), as well as a little gypsum and calcium chloride. Not uncommon to use Epsom salt, as well. Try this and see if the graininess is still present.

Edit: Okay, you found your water report. Good start.

Edit2: Upon further review, that water report doesn't contain much useful info for brewing. It gives total hardness, but no mineral info. You can try calling the water dept and see if you can get a breakdown on mineral info or you can send a sample out for testing to Ward Labs.

Also, since it states chlorine is added, you should be doing something to mitigate this. Filtering won't do it. Campden tablets are cheap and easy. If you decide to try a brew with RO, you can skip the Campden.

Do you mean chloramine? Because chlorine can most definitely be filtered out with a carbon filter, bubbled out through aeration or just by leaving it the water sit out long enough.

I'm guessing you meant Chloramines though because of the Campden tabs.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Do you mean chloramine? Because chlorine can most definitely be filtered out with a carbon filter, bubbled out through aeration or just by leaving it the water sit out long enough.

I'm guessing you meant Chloramines though because of the Campden tabs.

I meant both, actually. But you're right, chlorine can be abated using other methods. I prefer Campden because it's a catch-all and works almost instantly. By all means, if what you're doing works, then keep doing it!

 

[Mainer]

Edit2: Upon further review, that water report doesn't contain much useful info for brewing. It gives total hardness, but no mineral info. You can try calling the water dept and see if you can get a breakdown on mineral info or you can send a sample out for testing to Ward Labs.

Also, since it states chlorine is added, you should be doing something to mitigate this. Filtering won't do it. Campden tablets are cheap and easy. If you decide to try a brew with RO, you can skip the Campden.

Yeah, it looks like they're only giving you the minimum requirements, only those substances that have EPA benchmarks.

 

[mattdee1]

The problem OP describes sounds like a dead-ringer for an alkalinity problem.

When brewing pale beers, just start with RO water and add a bit of gypsum, CaCl, and acid (if necessary) per the recommendations of your calculator of choice (I use Bru N Water). For your dark beers, sounds like your tap water is suitable, so no need to change. For those beers, the darker grains are likely overcoming the buffering power of the water (i.e., the alkalinity) and bringing the mash pH into the sweet spot. You may want to consider acidifying the sparge water, though.

 

[Schlomo]

The problem OP describes sounds like a dead-ringer for an alkalinity problem.

When brewing pale beers, just start with RO water and add a bit of gypsum, CaCl, and acid (if necessary) per the recommendations of your calculator of choice (I use Bru N Water). For your dark beers, sounds like your tap water is suitable, so no need to change. For those beers, the darker grains are likely overcoming the buffering power of the water (i.e., the alkalinity) and bringing the mash pH into the sweet spot. You may want to consider acidifying the sparge water, though.

So what would you guys suggest? I want to brew an IPA this weekend, but obviously dont want to have another grainy tasting beer. What could you suggest as a "Catch All" base profile I could test and compare? I will obviously not be able to send out my water and get it tested in time, and i dont want to invest in RO at the moment, and am too lazy to go buy RO water, id rather treat my own. Any thoughts?

 

[Mainer]

So what would you guys suggest? I want to brew an IPA this weekend, but obviously dont want to have another grainy tasting beer. What could you suggest as a "Catch All" base profile I could test and compare? I will obviously not be able to send out my water and get it tested in time, and i dont want to invest in RO at the moment, and am too lazy to go buy RO water, id rather treat my own. Any thoughts?

Hard to say what to do if you're not able to get RO water or spring water. It's tough to treat without knowing what you're treating for. Maybe try a black IPA and hope the darker roast of the malts covers some faults?

 

[Schlomo]

Hard to say what to do if you're not able to get RO water or spring water. It's tough to treat without knowing what you're treating for. Maybe try a black IPA and hope the darker roast of the malts covers some faults?

My coworker was noticing i was looking at water reports and mentioned a place on my way home from Work that will do a free water analysis, so im going to do that tomorrow.

 

[Schlomo]

So I have an update on this. I haven't taken my water sample in yet, but i pulled a sample off the 2 beers I brewed after changing the crush on my mill. The Oatmeal stout is fantastic, and as many have commented that beer would be fine in any case due to the dark malts.

The other interesting thing is that the ESB I brewed is great! No grainy bad off flavor like my previous beers all had. It was a very simple grain bill, 9.5 lbs Maris otter, .5 lb Crystal 10, 1 lb Crystal 40. Its not as bitter as I would have thought either, however.

I still want to get a grip on my Water chemistry to hopefully take it from Good to Great but this is a good step in the right direction. Thank you everyone for your input and experience.

 

[Stillraining]

So from your last post I take it your 18 pound recipe was for a 5 gallon batch too? Just curious, I have never made a beer that big myself.

 

[brandonnys]

Looking at it now i see it is alot of base malt. Should i be doing more specialty malts?

In addition to your water chemistry journey, I'd perhaps invest in the book "Malt". It does a very good job of explaining how malts interact within a recipe.

Adding excessive amounts of specialty malts can cause significant off flavors by virtue of them being used in improperly. Many specialty malts have a specific purpose, like altering the color, aroma, body, head retention, etc.

They call them "base malts" because they really don't need anything else to make beer. You could have 100% 2-row in your bill and still produce a pretty decent beer.

The long and short of it is that I'd caution you on adding too much specialty malts unless you know how it will affect the final product. I speak from experience on that.

 

[Schlomo]

So from your last post I take it your 18 pound recipe was for a 5 gallon batch too? Just curious, I have never made a beer that big

The 18 lb was for 10 gallons.

 

[Stillraining]

Ah ..OK...I was wondering how in the world you would not get a grainy taste with that much grain in a 5 gallon batch.

Carry on.

 

[Schlomo]

I wanted to ask on this thread, because so many people mentioned "Boiled Grains" as a possible cause for the grainy flavor.

I started a brew over the weekend, and while i was going from Mash to BK i noticed while i was cleaning my Mash Tun with my large silver spoon to remove grain, alot of grain was still stuck to the spoon, and i was about to stick it into my BK to stir while coming up to temp. It just kinda hit me at that second that there was grain on the paddle. Not a lot mind you, its a stainless spoon i use for stirring, but i wanted to ask if that small amount of grain in the BK could contribute to the flavor?

I estimate if i were to go from mash to BK with the spoon with grain matter on it i would have about a quarter sized mound of grains that would have been transferred to the BK, over the course of maybe 3-5 back and forths. I've noticed myself doing it before, but figured it was no big deal.

 

[Mainer]

So... I'm not being sarcastic, but since beer *is* mashed grains, can somebody talk to me more about the difference between a "grainy" taste and a malty taste? I'm just not totally clear on where the fault is in beer tasting like grain.

 

[mongoose33]

I think that at this point you need to focus on water. Get a water report from Wards. Yeah, it costs money, but then you'll KNOW what you have.

I did, and I have a ton of alkalinity in my water. So much so that it's only suitable for brewing very dark beers. Result? Using RO water. You can get it for fairly cheap at ChinaMart or other places, so that you can see what happens when you use it.

I brew beers that tend toward the malty side. I start with one gallon of my tap water because it has at least some trace elements in there, and I think that helps. Then I cut it with RO water (3.5 gallons), and that's my strike water. With my typical grain bill, according to my water spreadsheet (EZ Water) I need to add 5 grams of CalciumChloride, so I do that to my strike water. I also need to add (typically) about 3 or 4 ml of Lactic Acid to the mash. My sparge water is exclusively RO water with 5 grams of Epsom Salts added.

This beer is turning out wonderfully. When people want a second beer of the same they just had, I know I'm doing something pretty OK.

Now, I've gone pretty deep into this stuff, for a relatively new brewer. I have my Wards water report, so I know what my local water is doing. I have all the additions necessary to amend the water according to what the spreadsheet says given my grain bill. I also bought a Ph Meter (Milwaukee mw102) so I would KNOW what my Ph is, not hope or guess.

I have bought an RO filter system so I make my own water, and always have about 12 gallons ready to go on any brew day (I refill those containers during the brew day using the filter).

There's a line in someone's book that says if your water tastes good, it'll brew good beer. After reading here for several months, and buying the water book, I disagree. My very first brew was an extract brew made with my tap water--which I think tastes fine. The brew is drinkable, but I'd describe it as "fair." I'm reasonably convinced the reason is that I just used my water as-is.

While I've made many incremental improvements to my brewing, I'd have to say the single one of most import has been paying attention to water. If you don't have much of a chemistry background it's not that easy, but for me, I believe it's had the greatest impact. My last three batches? I'd pay money for them in a bar, and I know I have room to improve yet.

My 2 cents. Add another 23 cents and you'll have a quarter.

Also remember free advice, at times, is worth what you paid for it.

 

[Schlomo]

I think that at this point you need to focus on water. Get a water report from Wards. Yeah, it costs money, but then you'll KNOW what you have.

I did, and I have a ton of alkalinity in my water. So much so that it's only suitable for brewing very dark beers. Result? Using RO water. You can get it for fairly cheap at ChinaMart or other places, so that you can see what happens when you use it.
........

Thanks for all the great information. I agree that it most likely is water. My water was difficult to drink, honestly i had not even tasted it before. I'm now looking into getting a RO system put in.

The biggest thing for me, as an engineer, is that chemical composition is a foreign language to me. I dont know what to add, i dont know the chemical compositions, etc. Getting feedback from people who've gone through this type of thing is the best way for me to understand what I need to do to make better beer, so thank you everyone for the insight.

 

[marc1]

Go to the brew science subforum and look at the water chemistry primer thread. There's general advice for starting with ro water that doesn't involve spreadsheets and in depth chemistry knowledge. It's a great, easy place to start and if you want to go more in depth from there you can.