English Strong Ale? Yards Thomas Jefferson?

[Dabba]

Has anyone had Yard's Thomas Jefferson's Tavern Ale? I found it very good and it hid the alcohol very well (and dangerously!)

I'm looking to make this for my next beer either partial extract or BIAB 5 gallon batch.. I'd have to top off to 5 as I only have a 5G kettle.

Does anyone have any idea where to start? This does not seem to be a very popular style so it's hard to get a lot of recipe info. Especially something close to Yard's rendition.

https://yardsbrewing.com/ales/thomas-jeffersons-tavern-ale

https://beerrecipes.org/BJCP-2015-Style/53/17a-british-strong-ale.html

I'm not sure on the exact grain proportions or extract amounts. What would be some mild english hops for this?

Thanks guys, I just need a start, I'm gonna try to come up with something on brewtoad.

 

[triethylborane]

Hops could be East Kent Golding or Fuggles.

Probably 2 row (75%)

5% grits
5% rye malt
5% wheat malt
8% honey

EKG hops 1oz at 60 min, 30, 15

Yeast . . . ???

 

[Dabba]

Yeast looks to be 9097-PC? Used in English Strong ales, and barleywines

What about pale malts with some wheat? Maybe Barley?

Whats 2 row?

 

[triethylborane]

Yeast looks to be 9097-PC? Used in English Strong ales, and barleywines

What about pale malts with some wheat? Maybe Barley?

Whats 2 row?

Hmm, ere is what I think the grain bill is like, with the percentage representing the proportions for whatever size batch you make:

2 row malt (70%)
Grits or flaked maize (5%)
Flaked oats (5%)
Rye malt, 3.7L (5%)
Wheat malt (5%)
Honey (10%) added with 20min left in boil.

Running this through brewer's friend my OG was on target with 18P, and with 3oz of East Kent Golding per 5 gallons at 60, 30 and 15 minutes, IBU is 41.

Hmm, dunno about that 9097 . . . it might produce too much ester . . . maybe WY1098?

 

[Dabba]

Hmm, ere is what I think the grain bill is like, with the percentage representing the proportions for whatever size batch you make:

2 row malt (70%)
Grits or flaked maize (5%)
Flaked oats (5%)
Rye malt, 3.7L (5%)
Wheat malt (5%)
Honey (10%) added with 20min left in boil.

Running this through brewer's friend my OG was on target with 18P, and with 3oz of East Kent Golding per 5 gallons at 60, 30 and 15 minutes, IBU is 41.

Hmm, dunno about that 9097 . . . it might produce too much ester . . . maybe WY1098?

I was doing a little more research on the side and all of those grains are the popular choices from what I've seen, as well as the hops. For learnings sake, how did you come up with the proportions? I'm not sure how to do that yet? And I'm not sure about the honey. Straight honey? I'm not really looking for a honey taste.. but would it still have it or just be another fermentable sugar?

Ester gives the alcohol-y taste right?

Hmm I think you're right about the yeast. Didnt see 9097 had 14% ABV which is a lot higher than what I'm thinking, though I did like the fruity character. 1098 looks much better though!

 

[triethylborane]

The sweetness of the honey would not show through in the finished beer, but helps get the OG up, adds highly fermentable sugars, but really meshes well with the moderate alpha acids of the East Kent Golding hops. Not to mention its probably what brewers like Jefferson used to boost ABV.


As for the proportions, I follow the general style for an English strong ale/wee heavy that Ive picked up over the years. 60-80% base malt (2 row) and the rest of the adjuncts are sort of a guess at this point. Honey is going to be a larger proportion of the fermentable sugars and the adjunct grains will need to be experimented with to get the proper proportions. IIRC the Yards TJ is a bit like a marzen to my tastebuds, spice, rye, bread with a malty sweetness. So, the proportions are definitely not concrete . . . Id run a batch and see how it comes out, compare, and adjust. Rye for spice, oats for body, maize for smoothness (grits might be more historical, maybe), wheat for color and flavor.

Esters is the banana, pear, apple flavor that comes through some fermentations. The banana flavor in Hefeweizens is ester, but when it is overdone, it does become a heavy alcohol flavor.

9097 will ferment big beers, but I don't think it has the right profile for what you want. 1098 is a fantastic yeast that ferments like a monster, but if you ferment at a higher temp, maybe 65-67, a bit more of the fruit character would come through. What you might want to try is splitting a 5 gallon batch and pitching 1098 and 9097 into 2.5 gallons to see what comes out.

 

[Dabba]

The sweetness of the honey would not show through in the finished beer, but helps get the OG up, adds highly fermentable sugars, but really meshes well with the moderate alpha acids of the East Kent Golding hops. Not to mention its probably what brewers like Jefferson used to boost ABV.


As for the proportions, I follow the general style for an English strong ale/wee heavy that Ive picked up over the years. 60-80% base malt (2 row) and the rest of the adjuncts are sort of a guess at this point. Honey is going to be a larger proportion of the fermentable sugars and the adjunct grains will need to be experimented with to get the proper proportions. IIRC the Yards TJ is a bit like a marzen to my tastebuds, spice, rye, bread with a malty sweetness. So, the proportions are definitely not concrete . . . Id run a batch and see how it comes out, compare, and adjust. Rye for spice, oats for body, maize for smoothness (grits might be more historical, maybe), wheat for color and flavor.

Esters is the banana, pear, apple flavor that comes through some fermentations. The banana flavor in Hefeweizens is ester, but when it is overdone, it does become a heavy alcohol flavor.

9097 will ferment big beers, but I don't think it has the right profile for what you want. 1098 is a fantastic yeast that ferments like a monster, but if you ferment at a higher temp, maybe 65-67, a bit more of the fruit character would come through. What you might want to try is splitting a 5 gallon batch and pitching 1098 and 9097 into 2.5 gallons to see what comes out.

I only have a 6.5 and 5G carboys on top of my 5G bucket so I don't think I'd be able to split the batch. I'll try putting those proportions in brewtoad and tweak them a bit and see comes out. I definitely want a little higher ABV but I don't think I want an alcoholy taste. Yards example hid the alcohol content very well which is what I liked, so I don't mind a hint of banana but don't think I want something on the order of a barley wine.

I'll see what I come up with and let you know!

Thanks so much!

 

[z-bob]

What about S-33 yeast? A neutral British yeast, with relatively low attenuation and high alcohol tolerance. (I have a couple of packs in the fridge but haven't tried it yet)

 

[Dabba]

What about S-33 yeast? A neutral British yeast, with relatively low attenuation and high alcohol tolerance. (I have a couple of packs in the fridge but haven't tried it yet)

Gonna stick with the 1098 and see what happens.

So with the advice given...


2-Row
8.4
70%


Flaked Oats
0.6
5%


Rye (DE)
0.6
5%


Wheat (UK)
0.6
5%


Honey
1.2
10%


Grits
0.6
5%

East Kent Golding at 60, 30, 15 at 1.2, 1.2, and 1.5oz respectively

Planning on a 5G BIAB batch with a 4.5G boil and to top off with 0.5G

OG: 1.070
FG: 1.018
ABV: 7
IBU: 40
SRM: 3

Thoughts? 12 lbs of grain total in a 5G kettle BIAB for a 5G batch. Gonna be hard but I think I can do it

 

[Dabba]

bump?

 

[Dabba]

One more try for input, then I'll switch to something else for now.

 

[triethylborane]

I think the only thing left to do is give it a shot.

 

[JazzyJeff]

Gonna stick with the 1098 and see what happens.

So with the advice given...


2-Row
8.4
70%


Flaked Oats
0.6
5%


Rye (DE)
0.6
5%


Wheat (UK)
0.6
5%


Honey
1.2
10%


Grits
0.6
5%

East Kent Golding at 60, 30, 15 at 1.2, 1.2, and 1.5oz respectively

Planning on a 5G BIAB batch with a 4.5G boil and to top off with 0.5G

OG: 1.070
FG: 1.018
ABV: 7
IBU: 40
SRM: 3

Thoughts? 12 lbs of grain total in a 5G kettle BIAB for a 5G batch. Gonna be hard but I think I can do it

Did you ever try this? How did it turn out? I live in Texas and love this beer. I was looking to make a clone.

 

[JKaranka]

The recipe sounds strange for a strong ale compared to the ones we actually have here (which have fewer adjuncts). In addition to EKG and Fuggles; Styrian Goldings are often used. Progress, Pioneer, Northdown, etc are good too.

 

[Lefou]

"Golden strong ale" ... Flaked oats and maize; rye and wheat; local honey from Fruitwood Orchards. Hints from their website.

I like the General Washington tavern porter once in a while, but it isn't quite as strong as the TJTA. Yards uses Styrian Goldings (Celeia) in the saison (another good beer I like from Yards).
As far as the yeast goes, I'm at a loss, but would assume something neutral to let the hops and malt stand out.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The recipe sounds strange for a strong ale compared to the ones we actually have here (which have fewer adjuncts). In addition to EKG and Fuggles; Styrian Goldings are often used. Progress, Pioneer, Northdown, etc are good too.

It's an attempt to recreate an ale mentioned by Thomas Jefferson so Goldings (not Styrians which is something else) is the obvious choice, 19th century hops like Fuggles are too modern let alone the Wye hops. 42IBU.

8.0% and 18 Plato OG so 1.074, implying 1.013 FG for an apparent attenuation of 82%. That's high for most British yeast, but not impossible for something like Nottingham. But my feeling is that a "mild" saison yeast fermented cool is probably the closest match - 3711/Belle Saison perhaps? Neutral yeast are somewhat alien to the British tradition, some yeast character is important for the balance which makes the beer so drinkable.

The grist was obviously just throwing in whatever fermentables they could get their hands on at the time, which ends up looking more like a medieval beer from the Low Countries than a modern SMaSH. Qv Tripel Karmaliet for a modern beer that takes inspiration from those times - in fact generally I'd be heading this beer towards something that's closest to a tripel but with more bitterness. But by Jefferson's time they'd got away from the 50% oat grists that had been common, barley was definitely preferred when they had the choice. I guess 6-row would have been more likely than 2-row?? Otherwise, triethylborane's second grist looks a good starting point.

 

[JKaranka]

Try Nottingham and Brett C if you want traditional style high attenuation

 

[mwmcal]

Give this one a try. I've made it several times and it's always a hit. I've only had Yards version once and really liked it, but can't get it in Florida so I've never been able to directly compare this recipe. I did have some correspondence with the head brewmaster from Yards so I think this is pretty close.

2-row Pale malt 43%
Wheat malt 30%
Rye Malt 7%
Flaked Corn 7%
Crystal 60 7%
Honey 6%

EKG hops, 60 minute addition only. I use 2.5 oz for a 5 gallon batch

WLP 002 yeast