English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes!

I suspect I know the answer, but isn't treacle essentially just a dark caramel, then? I always associate it's strong quality with Old Peculier but perhaps in minute amounts for coloring only, suitable? Or perhaps it's actually too light to be of much use for this purpose.

 

[Fr_Marc]

Please excuse my ignorance, but is there any real difference between brewer‘s caramel and the stuff sold as „Zuckerkulör“ (literally „sugar colour“) in German supermarkets, for example this:

https://fuchsgruppe.shop/zuckerkulo...referralCode=69d40c973d814e47a178860d01c0a704
The listed ingredients are: caramelized sugar - 100%.

 

[Fr_Marc]

I was standing in front of the shelve with it in the supermarket yesterday as well. I think the d version is indeed the so called brewer's caramel. There's an interesting post about it in one of the German forums... Wait, let me fetch the link for you....

There you go: Brewers Caramel = Zuckercouleur? - Hobbybrauer.de

Isn't this stuff available in every country on the baker's shelve in the supermarkets?

Sorry, Miraculix, I overlooked your post.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Please excuse my ignorance, but is there any real difference between brewer‘s caramel and the stuff sold as „Zuckerkulör“ (literally „sugar colour“) in German supermarkets...The listed ingredients are: caramelized sugar - 100%.

and it's E150c, so on the face of it would be very similar. The British equivalent for colouring sauces etc is gravy browning, which is E150c with around 15% salt and a bit of sugar - homebrewers do use it as a hack to approximate brewer's caramel but you've got to be aware of the salt content.

People might also be interested in this old piece from Ron with an extract from ER Southby's advice on making caramel in 1885, with some interesting comments afterwards. I'm not sure about Chris Bowen's advice "the secret to the flavor is to set the whole thing on fire at the end for a few minutes to add a richness that has an almost peat like depth"!!!!

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/02/caramel-in-1885.html

 

[Colindo]

I'd make an educated guess that it likely has been very dark for quite awhile since they made it with ammonium compound even in the late 1800's

Oh, would you have a recipe from that time? Though @Northern_Brewer 's link also helps a lot.

I bought it at the local fancy shmancy supermarket, the normal one didn't stock it. Maybe this is what rich people eat?

Could you provide a name? The big ones in my area had none. Also I wonder why people would use it as a spread, except if it has lots of caramel flavour. How is it?

I suspect I know the answer, but isn't treacle essentially just a dark caramel, then? I always associate it's strong quality with Old Peculier but perhaps in minute amounts for coloring only, suitable? Or perhaps it's actually too light to be of much use for this purpose.

Old Peculier used to be made with molasses or black treacle. Lyle's Black Treacle is a mix of golden syrup and molasses. And I believe the choice which kind of molasses you use is pretty important. Young's Winter Warmer is still brewed with molasses, which is part of their proprietary sugar YSM (Young's Special Mix). If anyone wants the specifications, I got them from a former Young's brewer.

gravy browning

The colouring I bought is called the same, though it's just diluted with water, no sugar or salt added.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

and it's E150c, so on the face of it would be very similar. The British equivalent for colouring sauces etc is gravy browning, which is E150c with around 15% salt and a bit of sugar - homebrewers do use it as a hack to approximate brewer's caramel but you've got to be aware of the salt content.

People might also be interested in this old piece from Ron with an extract from ER Southby's advice on making caramel in 1885, with some interesting comments afterwards. I'm not sure about Chris Bowen's advice "the secret to the flavor is to set the whole thing on fire at the end for a few minutes to add a richness that has an almost peat like depth"!!!!

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/02/caramel-in-1885.html

Just bought Ron's "vintage" book. It may come as no surprise if you recall at all, that I'm particularly interested in the traditional approach to British ales. I imagine much of this sugar discussion is covered in depth in the book, yes?

 

[Colindo]

Without having read the 1885 blog post yet, I can describe my journey down this rabbit hole. The problem starts with the fact that in English the word caramel is used for both the food colouring (Zuckerkulör in German) and caramelised sugar (Karamell in German). So it is very difficult to search for either with sufficient specificity via Google. You will find my change of understanding in the link that @Miraculix provided from hobbybrauer.de, where I first state that British Brewer's caramel is the same as the food colouring and two years later I correct myself saying that there is quite a difference.

What is that difference? It is the degree to which you let it burn, basically. Early recipes from the 20th century have sometimes Brewer's Caramel with as little as 500 SRM and later it goes up to 5000 SRM. So there is quite a range of products than were used and I read somewhere on Ron's blog that brewers compained that later caramel provided little flavour. I guess the modern stuff is just a more intense version of the caramels that provide basically no flavour nor increase final gravity, whereas the old stuff did that.

I'll search for some of Ron's recipes as examples...

I imagine much of this sugar discussion is covered in depth in the book, yes?

The book gives an overview over the huge topic of historical brewing, so the sugar section is mostly just a summary of all his research.

 

[Colindo]

By the way, found this great quote at Nigay:

Labelling

Burnt sugars bring both taste and colour to the final product.
If it adds a discernible taste then the labelling is: "caramel (glucose syrup, water, sugar)" or "caramel (sugar, water)".
If the burnt sugar only brings colour then it must be labelled: "colour: E 150a". For labelling, refer to EUTECA (European Technical Caramel Association) decision-tree.

 

[corncob]

A word of caution on baking type caramel color:

I have tried it twice in beer, at different times in the process and both times it showed a powerful attraction to yeast cells and weak attraction to the finished beer. Little of the color remained in the beer, while the the yeast was stained dark brown and took on a "curdled" texture. Like a broken dairy sauce. The slurry was still potent and fermented the next batch normally, although it was hard to measure since the texture was so strange. Same results when used at flameout and in nearly clear beer in the cask. Did not work.

Based on this, I believe there is some magic in the brewer's type caramel beyond its color. I wish I could buy it in the US.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Was it pure caramellised sugar or caramel sauce? The latter has fat in it wich might explain the weird behaviour.

 

[Colindo]

And it looks like my idea of when which caramel was used was also skewed.
1916 recipe with 500 SRM
1966 recipe with 500 SRM
1914 recipe with a very dark caramel called 'tintose'

Based on this, I believe there is some magic in the brewer's type caramel beyond its color. I wish I could buy it in the US.

This would match the descriptions on the Nigay website where different caramels are stable in different media.

 

[Miraculix]

Oh, would you have a recipe from that time? Though @Northern_Brewer 's link also helps a lot.

Could you provide a name? The big ones in my area had none. Also I wonder why people would use it as a spread, except if it has lots of caramel flavour. How is it?

Old Peculier used to be made with molasses or black treacle. Lyle's Black Treacle is a mix of golden syrup and molasses. And I believe the choice which kind of molasses you use is pretty important. Young's Winter Warmer is still brewed with molasses, which is part of their proprietary sugar YSM (Young's Special Mix). If anyone wants the specifications, I got them from a former Young's brewer.

The colouring I bought is called the same, though it's just diluted with water, no sugar or salt added.

Ha! Did not even realise that you were participating in that old thread. Duckduckgo search just spit it out when I entered Zuckerkulör and brewers caramel I think.

The Supermarket is called Lestra. I think it might be a one store only shop, not a big chain. They got all the fancy stuff, really upper class price range in there. But great for anything meat and cheese! Also reasonably priced in that area.

 

[cire]

A word of caution on baking type caramel color:

I have tried it twice in beer, at different times in the process and both times it showed a powerful attraction to yeast cells and weak attraction to the finished beer. Little of the color remained in the beer, while the the yeast was stained dark brown and took on a "curdled" texture. Like a broken dairy sauce. The slurry was still potent and fermented the next batch normally, although it was hard to measure since the texture was so strange. Same results when used at flameout and in nearly clear beer in the cask. Did not work.

Based on this, I believe there is some magic in the brewer's type caramel beyond its color. I wish I could buy it in the US.

There may well be magic in Brewer's Caramel, but it is more often added after fermentation. The yeast I most frequently use makes lighter colored beer than the wort it ferments.

 

[Miraculix]

View attachment 834715
Guess what I'm going to do tonight?

For general information, I have now taste-tested it.

Yes, also the Heller Sirup.

The Sirup tastes like sweet nothingness. There is the slightest hint of cotton candy but this is something that I do not expect to carry over into the beer in any detectable way. So what we got there is basically invert number 1 with a healthy addition of glucose, I would say.

This is not a bad thing, as invert No. 1 certainly has it's place in british beer, especially in lighter bodied and lighter coloured ones in which intesified yeast expression might be desirable (oldschool Boddington's anyone?).

So for me, this is basically a slightly lighter coloured Lyles's Golden Sirup and I am happy that I can buy this in the neighbourhood. Time for a Miraculix Best I would say!


.... hmmmm... but what if one would use this Heller Sirup as a base to make Candi Sirup!? I bought myself some date sirup, I read somewhere that this could be used instead of DAP. Maybe I will give this a try. I have one additional jar of Heller Sirup here.

 

[Colindo]

The yeast I most frequently use makes lighter colored beer than the wort it ferments.

What exactly do you mean? All beer turns a shade paler during fermentation because of the shedding of brown yeast, which are hop resins that are not soluble after the pH value drops.
If you mean something else along the lines of "lighter coloured than other yeasts" I would be very interested in the name of said yeast.

 

[cire]

With the exceptions of trials with strains gifted by others, together with ones harvested from bottle conditioned beers, all the yeasts used for a decade and more originated from Brewlab.

Currently the yeast in use mostly (19 pitches from a single vial) is of Vaux Brewery in Sunderland that closed in 1998. It is not among those listed in the link and possibly does reduce colour more than some others.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

With the exceptions of trials with strains gifted by others, together with ones harvested from bottle conditioned beers, all the yeasts used for a decade and more originated from Brewlab.

Currently the yeast in use mostly (19 pitches from a single vial) is of Vaux Brewery in Sunderland that closed in 1998. It is not among those listed in the link and possibly does reduce colour more than some others.

Shame Brewlab no longer sells directly to the public as I really liked the yeasts from them. Sara very kindly wrote back to me to say The Malt Miller has all their slope inventory but in looking up The Malt Miller, while I do see they carry Brewlab's Yorkshire Ale (out of stock - not sure if this "TT" or not), I'm not seeing others I seem to recall, including TT unless that's what this "Yorkshire" yeast is. Any suggestions for suppliers who might be carrying a range of good Yorkshire strains?

 

[Miraculix]

Shame Brewlab no longer sells directly to the public as I really liked the yeasts from them. Sara very kindly wrote back to me to say The Malt Miller has all their slope inventory but in looking up The Malt Miller, while I do see they carry Brewlab's Yorkshire Ale (out of stock - not sure if this "TT" or not), I'm not seeing others I seem to recall, including TT unless that's what this "Yorkshire" yeast is. Any suggestions for suppliers who might be carrying a range of good Yorkshire strains?

You really wanna do this to yourself? I mean, they obviously make great beers if one wants to babysit the brew for a week or so .

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You really wanna do this to yourself? I mean, they obviously make great beers if one wants to babysit the brew for a week or so .

Sorry man, missed what you're saying - do you mean, do I want to start from slants?

 

[Colindo]

For Timothy Taylor I find Wyeast 1469 quite accurate. It is the older strain, they switched somewhere around 2006, but in my opinion there is nothing missing when fermented at 22°C.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry man, missed what you're saying - do you mean, do I want to start from slants?

No I mean going through the whole Yorkshire square imitation process, constant aeration and agitation, open fermentation etc. I don't know if there are excptions, but the Yorkshire Yeasts I read about really seem to need this process to make good beer. Either for attenuation or for flavour.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

No I mean going through the whole Yorkshire square imitation process, constant aeration and agitation, open fermentation etc. I don't know if there are excptions, but the Yorkshire Yeasts I read about really semm to need this process to make good beer. Either for attenuation or for flavour.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks, excellent point. When I was first going about this, that was exactly what I wanted to do - even had a square vessel with a T/C port, and trying to find a way to jury rig a system. (see SS Yorkshire Square - Idea on Cost?; and - MLT?, and Yorkshire Square on a home level?).

I'm afraid my memory has taken a bit of a ding slowly over time and I'd simply spaced. Thanks for the reminder. Yes, that would be my first hope though I suspect it's down the road, if at all. Just looking for a more "characterful" yeast reminiscent of the northern brews I really like - nothing at all "clean, i.e., "neutral". But I can see now with your reminder that's going to take some doing, with so much depending on the fermentation setup and control parameters.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

For Timothy Taylor I find Wyeast 1469 quite accurate. It is the older strain, they switched somewhere around 2006, but in my opinion there is nothing missing when fermented at 22°C.

Thanks Colindo. That is in my mind as the most likely, too. I'd thought I recall some discussion on whether it's TT or not - or even the provenance for TT suggests a saison yeast? I'm sure my recall is faulty here.

 

[Colindo]

No I mean going through the whole Yorkshire square imitation process, constant aeration and agitation, open fermentation etc. I don't know if there are excptions, but the Yorkshire Yeasts I read about really seem to need this process to make good beer. Either for attenuation or for flavour.

Timothy Taylor yeast is not phenolic, so there it is no must have. It will still produce more flavour if open-fermented.

 

[Colindo]

I'd thought I recall some discussion on whether it's TT or not - or even the provenance for TT suggests a saison yeast?

Haven't heard of that one, but since I first brewed TT clones at home and only later tasted them in the UK and found that the flavour matched incredibly well without further tinkering, I never thought about it again.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Haven't heard of that one, but since I first brewed TT clones at home and only later tasted them in the UK and found that the flavour matched incredibly well without further tinkering, I never thought about it again.

Great, thanks!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just found Northern's post, where I think I got this:

Supposedly Tim Taylors use a yeast that came from John Smiths via Oldham Brewery, which was bought by Boddington's in the early 80s and TT ended up buying the old equipment from around 1990-ish, but suppposedly they got the yeast from them in the early 80s. The John Smith yeast had a great reputation and also ended up at Harvey's in 1957; one strain from Harvey's has been sequenced and it's one of these POF+ saison types, very different to Wyeast 1469 which is traditionally linked to Taylors but which if anything looks like WLP022 Essex.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

We're making hoisin pork, peking duck and sushi tonight. And drinking English Ale ofc.

 

[Colindo]

Oh, I had that beer from a hand pump in Chertsey once. Never seen it in the wild.

 

[Fr_Marc]

I love Hog‘s Back TEA, especially served from Cask. In fact, that very beer (and the inability to purchase it here in Germany) was what led me to homebrewing.

Back in October, while visiting Surrey, I was finally able to enjoy the real thing again.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

It definitely is a notable fresh/wet hop flavour in it.
I like it.

 

[Colindo]

I just realised the Real Ale Almanac has it

 

[Colindo]

Just found Northern's post, where I think I got this:

I always find these histories exciting, because there are so many contradicting each other. For example there is this quote from the UK brewery map:

Timothy Taylor Brewery yeast, from the Knowle Spring Brewery in Keighley, is 1469 West Yorkshire Ale / Omega OYL-014 British Ale VII. This may have come originally from the Courage Brewery in London.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I always find these histories exciting, because there are so many contradicting each other. For example there is this quote from the UK brewery map:

Thanks for the resource!

 

[Fr_Marc]

I just realised the Real Ale Almanac has it
View attachment 834781

The Brewery changed the recipe to all Fuggles (grown on their own farm) a number of years ago. The yeast they use is said to be the Hook Norton strain.

 

[Colindo]

@Fr_Marc Nice, what yeast would that be? I know Hook Norton has been around for a while and might have a unique strain...

 

[Fr_Marc]

@Fr_Marc Nice, what yeast would that be? I know Hook Norton has been around for a while and might have a unique strain...

I have no idea if the Hook Norton strain is available commercially (BrewLabs might have it), but the people at the Hook Norton brewery are very friendly and happy to give you a bagfull of their slurry, if you ask nicely. Unfortunately, I had two more weeks of holiday left and no plan how to keep the yeast safe and sound (not to mention how to smuggle it back into Germany). So I had to reject the kind offer unfortunately.

I will be better prepared next time…

 

[Gadjobrinus]

@Fr_Marc Nice, what yeast would that be? I know Hook Norton has been around for a while and might have a unique strain...

Reminiscence. Just a few:

One of the best times of our young married life - working for Goose Island Brewing Co. at the time, receive a call from none other than Michael Jackson himself telling me, while I was cip'ing the cellar, that we'd won the "world beer tour" web contest my wife had entered us in;

2+ weeks in England including opening multi-course beer dinner with MJ himself and Mark Dorber at the White Horse, London - meal prepared by Mark's gifted wife, beers selected by MJ;

An incredibly memorable evening with two old venerable gents in Blackfriar's - St. Paul's visible from the street, they'd retired from the paper across the street. Recounted the incredible horrors of the Blitz, and the grit showing in their eyes and faces, well - memorable.

A week in Hook Norton where I spent considerable time at the brewery and drooled over the Victorian tower setup - and dray team at the time, I believe Ted and Phil, though memory is dodgy;

Drinking with so many from parts close and far, including the beer writer for the Financial Times and local lorry men, at the Pear Tree in Hook Norton run by such a kind husband and wife team;

Having a pint or several with my wife in the back of the Reine Deer Inn, where portraits of Cromwell and Charles I hung glowering towards each other;

Warwick. My background (one of them) is in western European history and national political development and it goes without saying Warwick held a deep place for me, personally.

Ranging further up including some good times with a big bull of a brewer, Ian someone, name eludes me, at the Titanic Brewery in Stoke-on-Trent.

My son shares a similar passion for history, and love of the traditional pub, to the extent he's experienced one here. Badly miss England and really want to bring him back. He was, after all, conceived in London.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I have no idea if the Hook Norton strain is available commercially (BrewLabs might have it), but the people at the Hook Norton brewery are very friendly and happy to give you a bagfull of their slurry, if you ask nicely. Unfortunately, I had two more weeks of holiday left and no plan how to keep the yeast safe and sound (not to mention how to smuggle it back into Germany). So I had to reject the kind offer unfortunately.

I will be better prepared next time…

I pulled some yeast from slurry at Fuller's and Young's, and dried them on business cards. Streaked, slanted and stored them for use back in the States. Miraculously, they did really well.

I haven't seen Hook Norton anywhere for years, which is such a shame. I'd sure love to see them back in our region here in the States again.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The Brewery changed the recipe to all Fuggles (grown on their own farm) a number of years ago. The yeast they use is said to be the Hook Norton strain.

Looked them up and noted that. This image alone made me fall in love.

This, and revisiting Big Lamp brewery and its tower setup, referred by @cire , have made for a full morning.