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As a sort of side note to people trying to brew a proper bitter, after comparing my earlier attempts and later ones to commercial "Northern" bitters (Black Sheep, TT, Theakston etc) I have discovered you can usually go harder on the late and dry hops than many recipes suggest.
My usual schedule is 30g @ 20 min and 15g dry hop for a 1.040 OG 20L batch.
 
As a sort of side note to people trying to brew a proper bitter, after comparing my earlier attempts and later ones to commercial "Northern" bitters (Black Sheep, TT, Theakston etc) I have discovered you can usually go harder on the late and dry hops than many recipes suggest.
My usual schedule is 30g @ 20 min and 15g dry hop for a 1.040 OG 20L batch.
For example, all those hops in the hop back in the Timothy Taylor brewery tour video.
 
What are the thoughts on water chemistry? Water Profile: nervous about mineral levels says us Americans are doing it wrong.

No you are not doing it wrong, just keep those American profiles for American beers.

This is was the profile for my latest beer, a bitter, brewed last Saturday and to be racked to a pressure barrel tomorrow. The treated water profile is in the last column on the right in orange. The spreadsheet is specifically for my water supply that determines ion levels from a TDS meter reading. You might compare that to that advised by Murphy and Son in the link you provided.

BitterProfile.jpg


The following is an analysis of the major ions in an Old Speckled Hen beer brewed in Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, where the water is about as hard as it gets in Britain. The brewing process incorporates many ions from the malt, but calcium, and to a slightly lesser degree magnesium, in brewing liquor are mostly left in the mash and with hot break, and in relatively smaller amounts in the FV. It isn't possible to accurately determine from a beer analysis what the brewing liquor mineral content was, but such measurements show significantly less minerals in American beer styles.

EDIT. Must remember to add the analysis, in mg/L

K 492.1mg/L, Ca 194.1, Mg 91.4, Na N/A, PO4 276, SO4 179, Chloride 512, NO3 10.

The above profile can be seen to be chloride forward.
 
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I have discovered you can usually go harder on the late and dry hops than many recipes suggest.
My usual schedule is 30g @ 20 min and 15g dry hop for a 1.040 OG 20L batch.
Yeah, I tend to be generous - as a not-particularly-frequent brewer I tend to just throw a whole pack of 100g in, across 10min, flameout, whirlpool, dry hop (and sometimes bittering). It saves having packets left open and still works out cheaper than a few grams of Nectaron or whatever! :)
 
I have 3 profiles I use in my brewing, my tap water from a deep ground aquafier is pretty soft except for alkalinity (hco3) around 100mg/L and Na around 50-55 with some minor fluctuation from year to year.
Bitter: Na ~50 Cl ~120 So4 ~320
Mild, Brown or general darker and maltier ales: Na ~70-80 Cl ~230 So4 ~130
Porter: Na ~100 Cl ~300 So4 ~80
All profiles end up with Ca in the 150-200 range.
 
I have 2 beers that I won't be able to taste until coming autumn sometime that are using it...
But I took a first pint from a Red Ale yesterday that had a 50/50 mix of GP and Vienna.
It definitely had a more pronounced grainy, malty sweet-ish flavour with toasty breadiness, malty base flavour but just "beefier" and more of it if that makes sense?
Took a sample of my porter that will be kegged tonight and the same thing there, it seems to do what you expect a mild malt to do.
Gonna brew a mild loosely based on Ron's 1952 Lee's best mild soon, using all Simpson Vienna as base.

Well, boo. LHBS informs me that Simpson's Vienna is a special order.

Now I need recommendations. I'm looking to keep two base malts in stock. 1) A light, fresh grainy variety. When I've I run out of GP in this category, I'll replace it with Fawcett Optic. 2) A rich malty variety. This is where I was thinking Simpson's Vienna. I've just finished a sack of Simpson's Best Pale, wanting something richer. I'm not interested in making stepped mashes a thing, otherwise I'd go Chev.

Suggestions, preferences in the direction of historic mild malt?
 
The following is an analysis of the major ions in an Old Speckled Hen beer brewed in Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, where the water is about as hard as it gets in Britain. The brewing process incorporates many ions from the malt, but calcium, and to a slightly lesser degree magnesium, in brewing liquor are mostly left in the mash and with hot break, and in relatively smaller amounts in the FV. It isn't possible to accurately determine from a beer analysis what the brewing liquor mineral content was, but such measurements show significantly less minerals in American beer styles.
So I know that boiling water will drive out many of the minerals, Bru'n'Water has both options for many traditional brewing locations. Does that mean that the mash may have very high levels but after boil much of it is left behind? Did European brewers normally boil the water to lessen the mineral content? I've been wondering about this. I did a northern brown ale which was good but I could tell the mineral profile was off, and adding some CaCl helped a lot but even with that it was still in the "American" range of minerals.
 
That's what I thought. I start from distilled so I can make the water whatever I want it to be, but it's tricky figuring out what it's "supposed" to be for a style sometimes. I've mostly been brewing Belgian and British styles.
 
What are the thoughts on water chemistry? Water Profile: nervous about mineral levels says us Americans are doing it wrong.
I would go with the current recommendations which @Northern_Brewer provided. That said I do not do much with my water, which has quite a high alkalinity. I either use a bit of lactic acid or acid malt, or I boil water the day before and let the chalk precipitate. The latter is something I do rarely, either for water that needs a lot of minerals (so my calcium does not go through the roof) or for German Helles.

Did European brewers normally boil the water to lessen the mineral content?
Have a look here
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2022/04/hancock-water-treatment.htmlLondon water treatment 1880 - 1914
 
Many places have soft water.
I would care little about "historical profiles for cities" as brewers, especially British, have been altering brewing water since the mid 1800's.
I 2nd that!

Just do what works for you. British waters are sometimes highly mineral but more than 150 ppm sulfate is not nice, according to my own palate. Try brewing with 400 ppm once and you might either fall in love with it or agree with me. Both are reasonable possibilities.

I like to balance sulfate and chloride in between 100 and 200 each.

Btw. I am having a "Pinkus Spezial Pils" atm which went completely sideways :D. It tastes like a Berliner Weisse with lots of additional hops inside. Not bad at all, but not what I expected and not what the brewer intended. It even happens to the bigger professionals.
 
I 2nd that!

Just do what works for you. British waters are sometimes highly mineral but more than 150 ppm sulfate is not nice, according to my own palate. Try brewing with 400 ppm once and you might either fall in love with it or agree with me. Both are reasonable possibilities.

I like to balance sulfate and chloride in between 100 and 200 each.

Btw. I am having a "Pinkus Spezial Pils" atm which went completely sideways :D. It tastes like a Berliner Weisse with lots of additional hops inside. Not bad at all, but not what I expected and not what the brewer intended. It even happens to the bigger professionals.
And of course, as Miraculix says, you can tweak profiles after your liking.
Personally I think Bitter/EPA don't get that proper Bri'ish "zing" without 300+ mg/L of So4.
 
And of course, as Miraculix says, you can tweak profiles after your liking.
Personally I think Bitter/EPA don't get that proper Bri'ish "zing" without 300+ mg/L of So4.
Intersting isn't it? I do not like that "zing" at all and attribute it to only a small percentage of the British beers I have had when living there. It might be related to the area one lives in and obviously which beers one fancies. Personal taste and preferences certainly differ heavily from person to person.
 
Do you guys know any examples on each end, or at least examples with high zing, that might be available in the US? I'd be highly interested in a side-by-side tasting.

Just brewed my ESB-like recipe yesterday, 120Ca, 120 CL, 175 SO4 (per the calculator). I like it here but haven't gone further.
 
If you can get Saltair, Black Sheep, Timmy Taylor, Sam Smith Theakston bitter somewhere they would likely be a good example of high sulfate brewing water made beers.
Keep in mind though really high sulfate is mainly a Northern thing so it depends on what you are after.
 
Do you guys know any examples on each end, or at least examples with high zing, that might be available in the US? I'd be highly interested in a side-by-side tasting.

Just brewed my ESB-like recipe yesterday, 120Ca, 120 CL, 175 SO4 (per the calculator). I like it here but haven't gone further.
I've first recognised it within a Marston old empire IPA. There's this hop bite thing going on which you cannot really get from hops alone but need high sulfate levels as well. I'm actually not sure what their sulfate levels are so if they are low I'm completely on the wrong track.
 
If you can get Saltair, Black Sheep, Timmy Taylor, Sam Smith Theakston bitter somewhere they would likely be a good example of high sulfate brewing water made beers.
Keep in mind though really high sulfate is mainly a Northern thing so it depends on what you are after.

I have been chasing info for a Yorkshire water profile and came across two links that argue the opposite:

water profile for special bitter?

Mineral content I think is very subjective, I usually look for 200-250ppm sulphate and 60-70ppm chloride; the general consensus being the sulphate will enhance the hoppiness.
That said, there was a big discussion recently on a UK based forum that I frequent regarding Timothy Taylor 'Landlord' ......a classic English pale ale / special bitter that is known for a hoppy character.......and whilst the brewery are very secretive about giving any information on recipes, enough was pieced together to come to the conclusion that their water is probably biased towards chloride.

Old Peculiar - Water profile - Home Brew Forum

This one you'll have to read for yourself.

After experimenting with bitters and AK for a while I am leaning towards more chloride and less sulfate. That zing isn't doing it for me either. And my visit to Yorkshire last summer drinking lots of Landlord and Black Sheep didn't convince me otherwise. I could be wrong. But my more recent brew with a higher chloride to sulfate ratio was more to my liking. I have to bump them all up to get to the proper calcium level @Northern_Brewer recommended to aid clarity (and I have modified my water that way in the past--but more with gypsum) but I'm going to try less sulfate for now.
 
I have been chasing info for a Yorkshire water profile and came across two links that argue the opposite:

water profile for special bitter?



Old Peculiar - Water profile - Home Brew Forum

This one you'll have to read for yourself.

After experimenting with bitters and AK for a while I am leaning towards more chloride and less sulfate. That zing isn't doing it for me either. And my visit to Yorkshire last summer drinking lots of Landlord and Black Sheep didn't convince me otherwise. I could be wrong. But my more recent brew with a higher chloride to sulfate ratio was more to my liking. I have to bump them all up to get to the proper calcium level @Northern_Brewer recommended to aid clarity (and I have modified my water that way in the past--but more with gypsum) but I'm going to try less sulfate for now.
Exactly my thoughts as well. I try to get calcium above 100, better in the direction of 150 while not letting sulfate rise much above 100. Chloride will be above 150 this way, sometimes around 200. Works for me!
 
I would not say any of those threads except that one post at AHA really suggested a more chloride forward profile, except for the discussion about OP, a beer defintely benefitting from chlorides more than sulphate.
And by zing I do not mean it as in a minerally character, but more of that sort of "bitey" bitterness found in many Yorkshire bitters, wich I personally have never experienced in a beer brewed with more chloride leaning water.
 
Hark thee, hark thee, English Ales, what ho?
Asking thou for my favorite recipe, so?
Well, prithee, let me ponder, let me muse
It's not so difficult, I shall not refuse

Mine ale, I fancy it dark and fine
As a flowing brook, soothing as wine
It soothes mine soul with its flavour grand
That is the recipe I understand

Malt and hops, a perfect blend
Mix them up, let them brew without end
Yeast to be added, let it ferment well
And a brew fit for a king we shall quell

Thus, that is mine favorite recipe, I state
English Ales, they suit me great
Dark and smooth, I need that taste
Drink it up, no moment to waste

10 lbs Maris Otter
1 lb Crystal Malt
Mash 152F
1-2 oz fuggles (45 mins)
1 oz fuggles (15 mins)
1 tsp Irish Moss
English Ale Yeast
Ferment 68F
 
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So, today for the first time in a long while, I will make the Machine House Mild clone. It really is a crackin' good quaffable beer. They just had their 10th anniversary last week with a couple of special firkins available.

Anyhoo, tonight I am doing a split batch with
1. fullers yeast reconstituted from a bottle that @Northern_Brewer kindly brought across the pond and
2. My house "beast yeast". Just a dog's breakfast of varying viability, strengths and generations of yeasts I have in the refrigerated library. To wit:
S04
Notty
Whitbread
Fullers (from the bottle)
Shepard Meene (from the bottle)
WLP013
WLP026
Burton Ale
Adnan
WLP85
Essex Ale
WLP006
Manchester
W Yorkie
Pub

(and I might be missing one or two)

Go me. Will report back on how this all turns out
 
Regarding the water discussion, I can add that I once brewed a Stout with 200 ppm of chloride in the brewing water and found this quite noticeable as an actual chloride smell. It was barely noticeable, but started being similar to commercial swimming pools.

I only once did a beer with 400 ppm of sulfate, but apart from an intense bitterness, which is explained by your posts earlier, I did not notice any smell or flavour contribution. I had been looking for a certain "sulphurous note" that some books imply. Guess I'll have to redo that and pay more attention to the bitterness and what it feels like.
 
Regarding the water discussion, I can add that I once brewed a Stout with 200 ppm of chloride in the brewing water and found this quite noticeable as an actual chloride smell. It was barely noticeable, but started being similar to commercial swimming pools.

I only once did a beer with 400 ppm of sulfate, but apart from an intense bitterness, which is explained by your posts earlier, I did not notice any smell or flavour contribution. I had been looking for a certain "sulphurous note" that some books imply. Guess I'll have to redo that and pay more attention to the bitterness and what it feels like.
The reason for the smell must be found somewhere else. As an experiment, take a glass of non-chlorinated water. Add a teaspoon of table salt and dissolve it. The water is now a solution with chloride levels way beyond what's being used in beer. Does it smell like a swimming pool to you?
 
Was it this thread that said wy1028 didn’t give a marmalade flavor? My Guinness clone has a bit of it with the Wyeast Irish yeast. Thing fermemented in the low 70s oops. If amusing because I thought it was dish soap on the glass at first. It’s currently an orange citrus scent. It also has some dark fruit undertones as it warms. Not bad but not what I planned. Only 5gal to go! :cool:
 
The reason for the smell must be found somewhere else. As an experiment, take a glass of non-chlorinated water. Add a teaspoon of table salt and dissolve it. The water is now a solution with chloride levels way beyond what's being used in beer. Does it smell like a swimming pool to you?
I'll see if I can find out more. Maybe it was a more mineralic smell from who knows what combination. Just found it interesting that this one chloride-heavy test beer gave much more noticeable results than the sufate-heavy beer.

Was it this thread that said wy1028 didn’t give a marmalade flavor? My Guinness clone has a bit of it with the Wyeast Irish yeast. Thing fermemented in the low 70s oops. If amusing because I thought it was dish soap on the glass at first. It’s currently an orange citrus scent. It also has some dark fruit undertones as it warms. Not bad but not what I planned. Only 5gal to go! :cool:
I tend to notice some apricot notes in canned Guinness once I get used to the roastiness. I have a beer with Wyeat 1084 fermenting right now at 21°C (70°F), so I'm curious if I will notice the same thing.
 
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I tend to notice some apricot notes in canned Guinness once I get used to the roastiness. I have a beer with Wyeat 1084 fermenting right now at 22°C (71.6°F), so I'm curious if I will notice the same thing.
Yeah looks like +90% of mine was done at 71-72. Apricot? maybe that too. But def. sometimes an orangy aroma.
 
FYI for the lovers of Chevallier malt. The most recent batch sent to BSG (distributor in USA) is pretty out of spec. This batch is probably elsewhere in the world too...not sure they're malting a lot of this stuff.

High protein (13.8%), poor extract (75.8%), high color (4.8L), terrible friability (70%), and diastatic power of only 54 Lintner.

https://coa.bsgcraft.com/Resources/...allier Malt PO160-027625 SS22125 57535-2 .pdf
 
FYI for the lovers of Chevallier malt. The most recent batch sent to BSG (distributor in USA) is pretty out of spec. This batch is probably elsewhere in the world too...not sure they're malting a lot of this stuff.

High protein (13.8%), poor extract (75.8%), high color (4.8L), terrible friability (70%), and diastatic power of only 54 Lintner.

https://coa.bsgcraft.com/Resources/...allier Malt PO160-027625 SS22125 57535-2 .pdf

To which spec are you referring?
 
To which spec are you referring?
The spec sheet I got from a sack purchased a while back had some min/max values. The values out of spec from that are:
Protein (TN Max = 1.85%)
Friability (Min = 80%)
Homogeneity (Min = 96%)

But comparing the two, my old sack had better extract (79.6%), and significantly more DP (97), and lower color (3.1L).

I'm not jumping to conclusions, but it's curious that they dropped the Max/Min specifications on the COA sheet when the malt is way out of spec.
 

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