Element NOT Responding to PID

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Scut_Monkey

Scut_Monkey

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I'm in the process of finishing up the last 2% of a kal clone. Tonight I realized that both heating elements are unresponsive to the PIDs. Everything runs completely fine otherwise and the elements work great but they are either 100% on or 100% off and the only way to turn them off is to turn the element selector switch to off to both. In other words with the PIDs set in auto mode i can watch the PID try to cut power completely to 0% output but the elements continue to run at 100% power and the temperature of the kettles just keeps rising at the same rate. I double checked all my wiring and everything appears to be wired verbatim to what Kal documented. I also tried autotuning the PIDs but nothing will stop the elements except the selector switch. Any ideas where to start troubleshooting this? :mad: Thanks.

My initial thought is that the PID seems to be working fine, the elements seems to work fine but perhaps the SSRs aren't working. Honestly though I can't figure it out. HELP!
 
RDWHAHB - step away from the box for a day, then come back again and look at the wiring again. when you say 100% on, 100 % off do you mean they cycle? or they just stay on? no cycling such as 100%on for one second then 100%off for a second?
 
The PID is trying to cut the power and once the temperature shoots to high it will cut down to 0% output but the element appears to still be running at 100% power and eventually reaches a boil even though I have the PID set to 150F or whatever. Also, during that entire time the amp meter continues to show the same reading of ~22-23amps even though the PID is stating 0% output.
 
This is with the PID in auto mode. To be honest I haven't tried it in manual mode. What I can say is that even when the PID output light turns off and the output reading drops to 0% the element is still running at what appears to be full power.

This thread seems similar
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/how-do-i-use-pid-283033/.
I tried sending a PM to the original poster but it won't let me.
 
As an update. I just tried it in manual mode as well and with the output turned down to 1% or even 0% the element seems to still be getting 100% power. The amp meter never changes.
 
The amp meter won't change. The elements are either 100% on or 100% off all the time. The thing that changes is the amount of time they are on. The closer you get to your set temperature on your PID, the less time the elements will be fired. I'm staring at my Kal clone heating up my HLT and the element has been getting a full 240 volts from 104 degrees to the present 193 degrees. When it hits about 210ish, the element light will start to turn off and on. Thats the PID doing it's work.
Tom


edit- By the amp meter not changing, you mean it stays at 0? If so, are you sure the element isn't indeed firing but maybe the amp meter isn't wired properly?
 
TomRep said:
The amp meter won't change. The elements are either 100% on or 100% off all the time. The thing that changes is the amount of time they are on. The closer you get to your set temperature on your PID, the less time the elements will be fired. I'm staring at my Kal clone heating up my HLT and the element has been getting a full 240 volts from 104 degrees to the present 193 degrees. When it hits about 210ish, the element light will start to turn off and on. Thats the PID doing it's work.
Tom
Click to expand...

I see, makes sense. Knowing this I can say that the element light never ever, ever turns off unless I flip the element select switch to kill both elements manually.
 
TomRep said:
edit- By the amp meter not changing, you mean it stays at 0? If so, are you sure the element isn't indeed firing but maybe the amp meter isn't wired properly?
Click to expand...

The amp meter works fine. It reads near zero when all the pumps are off and about 22-23amps with both pumps running an element running.
 
Are you heating water or something while testing? if the liquid is, say, 100 degrees, set the PID to 200. Your element light should be full on. Now turn the PID down to 102, your element light SHOULD start to cycle. Turn the PID to 80 degrees, element light should go off. I say it should cycle at 102 becuse the PID may have to learn itself and it may not turn the light off until your above the 102 set point. You can auto tune them via Kal's directions and it should make it work the way I described.
Tom
 
The element light never cycles or goes off regardless of where the temp is. Essentially the PID is only acting as an elaborate thermometer and not controlling anything about the element. I tried to autotune them using Kals directions and the element just kept running at 100% power and blew past the 155F set point until it started boiling. The PID initially read 100% power and then cycled for a minutes until the temp went over and it read 0% output from then on.
 
Hmm, thats interesting. As mentioned before by someone, might have to step away from the box for a bit. Probably one of the wires is wrong for the PID. Did you wire all the PID's at the same time? Also, are both the HLT and boil PID's doing the same thing?
tom
 
I also suggest giving it a day of rest. When you come back to it try to check every connection along the pathway from the power source to the element. If you have a multimeter that makes it all the easier to check voltages.
 
TomRep said:
Hmm, thats interesting. As mentioned before by someone, might have to step away from the box for a bit. Probably one of the wires is wrong for the PID. Did you wire all the PID's at the same time? Also, are both the HLT and boil PID's doing the same thing?
tom
Click to expand...
Yeah I wired all the pids at the same time and they are both doing the same thing. I double checked the wiring for them and the continuity before supplying power but I can check again.

Stevo2569 said:
Bad SSR possibly. Are they running really Hot? Are they cheap china crap? Theres a couple other threads with the same problems.

SSR Running Hot
Click to expand...

These were purchased through auber so I wouldn't suspect that. They didn't seem to be hot.

bf514921 said:
pictures are worth a thousand words if you happen to have a pic of the wiring in the box.
Click to expand...

I'll have to snap some pics when I get home.
Thanks for the help so far.
 
Scut_Monkey said:
Yeah I wired all the pids at the same time and they are both doing the same thing. I double checked the wiring for them and the continuity before supplying power but I can check again.

These were purchased through auber so I wouldn't suspect that. They didn't seem to be hot.

I'll have to snap some pics when I get home.
Thanks for the help so far.
Click to expand...

Sounds like my problem:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/how-hot-should-ssr-run-sign-doa-one-290938/

How hot are they running?

Also, auber PIDs are just cheap Chinese imports resold at a higher price. Exactly the same model as you can buy for $5 on eBay...
 
shortyjacobs said:
Also, auber PIDs are just cheap Chinese imports resold at a higher price. Exactly the same model as you can buy for $5 on eBay...
Click to expand...

Good to know for when I order more. That's a whole lot cheaper than Auber. I've heard Auber has really good customer service though.
 
shortyjacobs said:
Sounds like my problem:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/how-hot-should-ssr-run-sign-doa-one-290938/

How hot are they running?

Also, auber PIDs are just cheap Chinese imports resold at a higher price. Exactly the same model as you can buy for $5 on eBay...
Click to expand...

Stevo2569 said:
Good to know for when I order more. That's a whole lot cheaper than Auber. I've heard Auber has really good customer service though.
Click to expand...

I take that back. I could have sworn when I looked at Auber before, they were the same Fotek SSRs you buy off of ebay for super cheap, (and from amazon with 2 day shipping for $10), but in fact they are Lide. Lide is still a Chinese import, dunno how they differ, better or worse, from Fotek.
 
Hey shortyjacobs where does your problem stand as of now? It sounds like your ssr won't be in until tomorrow but I'm curious. Your problem does sound very very similar to mine. Unfortunately I start to get lost with trouble shooting on this panel. That's the main reason I was hesitant to jump into electric brewing until kal came along with such a well documented and easy to follow and safe build. So I'm eager to figure out what works for you as I'll most likely do the same.
 
If both elements are behaving the same way I have to assume it's wiring error. Put a volt meter across the control terminals on the SSRs and see if they are pulsing from the PID. If not, it's the PID settings.
 
Scut_Monkey said:
Hey shortyjacobs where does your problem stand as of now? It sounds like your ssr won't be in until tomorrow but I'm curious. Your problem does sound very very similar to mine. Unfortunately I start to get lost with trouble shooting on this panel. That's the main reason I was hesitant to jump into electric brewing until kal came along with such a well documented and easy to follow and safe build. So I'm eager to figure out what works for you as I'll most likely do the same.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I've made no further headway....I'm stuck where my thread ends. I'm waiting on the new SSR to see if it solves the problem. If not, I'm not exactly sure what my next step will be...probably trying more active cooling on the SSR heatsink to keep it colder...
 
Update: I checked all my wiring and everything looks well physically based on Kal's diagrams. However, with NO power to the box I tested the continuity between the two terminals of each SSR. Again with no input signal running to the SSR there is full continuity between each output terminal on both SSRs. Based on my limited knowledge I take this as both SSRs failing and failing closed as there should be no continuity between the output terminals unless the PID is supplying an input signal. Because both SSRs seemed to have failed I believe the only thing that kept both elements from running at the same time were the mechanical relays as only one locks in at a time. (thanks for the safe design kal).

Am I correct in my logic? The only thing that makes me doubt this is the fact that both SSRs seemed to have failed (not very likely) and that they both seemed to have failed almost immediately upon supplying power to the box for the first time. Also they never seemed to get very hot as I could touch the heatsink after extended periods and it was only luke warm. I'm thinking I'm going to need two new SSRs but I would like to hear if my logic is correct before I purchase them. Thanks!
 
Scut_Monkey said:
Update: I checked all my wiring and everything looks well physically based on Kal's diagrams. However, with NO power to the box I tested the continuity between the two terminals of each SSR. Again with no input signal running to the SSR there is full continuity between each output terminal on both SSRs. Based on my limited knowledge I take this as both SSRs failing and failing closed as there should be no continuity between the output terminals unless the PID is supplying an input signal. Because both SSRs seemed to have failed I believe the only thing that kept both elements from running at the same time were the mechanical relays as only one locks in at a time. (thanks for the safe design kal).

Am I correct in my logic? The only thing that makes me doubt this is the fact that both SSRs seemed to have failed (not very likely) and that they both seemed to have failed almost immediately upon supplying power to the box for the first time. Also they never seemed to get very hot as I could touch the heatsink after extended periods and it was only luke warm. I'm thinking I'm going to need two new SSRs but I would like to hear if my logic is correct before I purchase them. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Without the input signal you should have no continuity, with a signal applied I see between 3k and 4k ohms.
 
I blew out 2 SSR's in a millisecond so it does happen. Auber was kind enough to sell me replacements cheaply.

You might want to read this
 
hi scut monkey, when you say full continuity between the posts, are you talking volts or amps? or units of dark matter? ok so maybe not units of dark matter, and just wondering do you have a pick or two of the inside of your box? hopfulley it turns out that you got 2 bad ssrs from a bad batch or something
 
bf514921 said:
hi scut monkey, when you say full continuity between the posts, are you talking volts or amps? or units of dark matter? ok so maybe not units of dark matter, and just wondering do you have a pick or two of the inside of your box? hopfulley it turns out that you got 2 bad ssrs from a bad batch or something
Click to expand...

To be honest I don't know what unit my multimeter measures continuity in. I'm assuming it applies a small amount of voltage and measures the voltage downstream to determine this. I know a regular copper wire measures the same resistance (zero) as my ssr with no input signal. Am I missing some concept where I am not testing it right?
 
So I'm looking to get 3 of these Ssr (1 backup) but I can't understand why in the description it says for up to 3500 watts when it's rated for 40 amps and 360 volts. I ask because I'm running 5500 watt elements.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HZLMTW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone have a suggestion for relatively cheap elements? I originally bought from auber because I thought they would be of higher quality but I won't make that mistake again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Scut_Monkey said:
So I'm looking to get 3 of these Ssr (1 backup) but I can't understand why in the description it says for up to 3500 watts when it's rated for 40 amps and 360 volts. I ask because I'm running 5500 watt elements.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HZLMTW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone have a suggestion for relatively cheap elements? I originally bought from auber because I thought they would be of higher quality but I won't make that mistake again.
Click to expand...

I recommend Crydom. You can buy them (used?) on ebay. Do a search for D2425 (25 Amp) or D2440 (40 Amp). I've used the 25A version for a couple of years now without any issue (5500W element). If you add a D at the end of the part number, you can find duals ( I use a couple of D2425D).

[edit: typo in D2440 - sorry]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I couldn't find any of the 40 amp crydom ssr on eBay or through a google search. Sorry but maybe I'm not looking right.
 
Will the ssr I posted above work for a 5500 watt element? I'm really not having an easy time finding anything else that doesn't ship from china.
 
Scut_Monkey said:
So I'm looking to get 3 of these Ssr (1 backup) but I can't understand why in the description it says for up to 3500 watts when it's rated for 40 amps and 360 volts. I ask because I'm running 5500 watt elements.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HZLMTW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone have a suggestion for relatively cheap elements? I originally bought from auber because I thought they would be of higher quality but I won't make that mistake again.
Click to expand...

I hope it works. It's what I bought that arrives today. Hopefully, if I have time, I can let you know tonight?

It's also the exact same model as the one that currently is "failing" me with overheating and latching closed.

I don't understand the 3500 watt rating either. Relays are rated by volts and amps, not watts....unless I'm an idiot and THIS is why mine isn't working. But I figure it says it's good for up to 360V, and good for 40A, so it should be able to handle my 240V 23A circuit fine.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I built my system before Auber became the go-to vendor. I bought all my SSRs off of ebay. I also bought crydom D2440 - most were new and some were used. I know I did not pay more than $20 per SSR including shipping. Other reputable brand names include omron, gordos, and opto.
 
I have a used Crydom 40 amp SSR I picked up for $9. I see these are used too. Do you know what the reliability of these are? How much more life can a person expect to get from these?
 
With a used SSR, it is a total crapshoot as far as how long it will last. I simply bought two for each one in my system. That way, I always have a back up. These are designed for industrial (24/7) use and we brew once or twice a month. Mine haven't failed yet. YMMV. From this board, it would appear that people who are buying the cheap SSRs have frequent failures.
 
stlbeer said:
I have a used Crydom 40 amp SSR I picked up for $9. I see these are used too. Do you know what the reliability of these are? How much more life can a person expect to get from these?
Click to expand...

A lot. I picked up used 25A models and have used them for at least 75 10g batches. Just do your best to keep them cool with a decent heat sink.
 

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