Dry lager yeast (w34/70) - mega starter?

[xpops]

Hey!

i'm going to be brewing 10gal of Helles and 10gal of Schwarzbier soon. Technically i would need 8 packs of dry yeast to ferment this all out (2pks/5gal carboy).

Does anyone have experience with doing something along the lines of; pitch 1 pack, into a 2.5gal 1.040 beer as a giant starter. harvest that yeast, and split it up between my 8 carboys?

i have lots of grains and could make this "small beer" to build up my yeast, similar to a large starter? save myself 7 pks of dry yeast?

also for lager starters - is it important to ferment cool as well, or since you're decanting off the spent wort, you'd be getting rid of any potential off flavours from a warm fermentation?

thanks in advance!

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

I've been doing several lagers this winter using mostly dry yeasts, including 34/70. I don't think that the 2.5 gal batch to split with 8 carboys will be enough. Under-pitching lager is bad news. I've been using 2 packs of dry in a 5.5 gal carboy, then harvesting that and splitting the clean yeast into 2- 5.5 gal fermenters. That seems about perfect. During winter, my water heater closet is a steady 52 degrees F and that is spot of for a steady ferment yielding good attenuation with no off flavors. None of the books or websites seem to worry about the warm starter causing off flavors. My own experience is that it is fine.

 

[xpops]

I ran it through brewunited yeast calc...looks like I need a out 1.5 trillion yeast cells ... 2 packs in 5.5gal batch only gives me 1 trillion cells....looks like it's becoming less effort to just use 8 packs

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

Mr Malty says for a 1.050 lager, 3.4 - 11g packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons. I use 4 packs of W34/70 and never have a problem. That yeast makes some of the best malty lagers.

Are they saying 5 gram packets of yeast?

If you are saying 20 gallons for 8 packs that is about right. Or you could do the Helles first, cold crash and use the yeast cake for the other beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

also for lager starters - is it important to ferment cool as well, or since you're decanting off the spent wort, you'd be getting rid of any potential off flavours from a warm fermentation?

Make starters at room temps or a somewhat higher (e.g., 68-74F), even for lager yeasts. You want to grow them fast, not make good drinkable beer.

Brewing and fermenting a batch of beer and repitching the slurry is your most $-efficient way, you'll get beer and you'll get yeast.
Proper ale yeast pitches tends to multiply 4-5 times during a fermentation, so enough for a subsequent pitch in 4-5 times the volume of a similar gravity ale wort, or 2 times the volume of a double gravity ale wort.

Since lagers are pitched at higher rates, double from ales, I'm not sure what the yeast multiplication factor is, it may be only 2-2.5 times. When a yeast has reached her optimal cell density, it stops multiplying and starts fermentation. So you may need 2 5 gallon 'starter' batches to propagate enough yeast for your 2 10 gallon batches.

Fermentation is usually completed in 2 weeks, so that's when you would transfer the beer into a secondary (e.g., keg) for lagering, and harvest the yeast. Use an oxygen-free transfer process of course.

Or brew one 5 gallon 'starter' batch and brew the 2 10 gallon batches subsequently, pitching half the yeast of the 10 gallon Helles batch into the 10 gallon Schwarzbier. You may as well brew an Oktoberfest along with that and use the other half of the yeast.
And so on.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

With 34/70, you could reduce the starter size needed by fermenting a bit warmer. It works well at higher temperatures (use midway between lager and ale pitching rate).

 

[Dland]

I make 10 gallon batches of lager regularly, and pitch 2 packs 34/70 directly into cooled wort just after oxygenating with tank O2. Always working by the next morning, works out great. Fermentation temps between 54-56F.

 

[xpops]

Mr Malty says for a 1.050 lager, 3.4 - 11g packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons. I use 4 packs of W34/70 and never have a problem. That yeast makes some of the best malty lagers.

Are they saying 5 gram packets of yeast?

If you are saying 20 gallons for 8 packs that is about right. Or you could do the Helles first, cold crash and use the yeast cake for the other beer.

I'm talking the the 11g, so yes on track with your math. 8 packs for both 10gal batches combined. I'd much rather brew them both together and ferment them together. (Dual 10gal batch hardware, and ferm chamber space for 4 carboys).

 

[xpops]

Make starters at room temps or a somewhat higher (e.g., 68-74F), even for lager yeasts. You want to grow them fast, not make good drinkable beer.

Brewing and fermenting a batch of beer and repitching the slurry is your most $-efficient way, you'll get beer and you'll get yeast.
Proper ale yeast pitches tends to multiply 4-5 times during a fermentation, so enough for a subsequent pitch in 4-5 times the volume of a similar gravity ale wort, or 2 times the volume of a double gravity ale wort.

Since lagers are pitched at higher rates, double from ales, I'm not sure what the yeast multiplication factor is, it may be only 2-2.5 times. When a yeast has reached her optimal cell density, it stops multiplying and starts fermentation. So you may need 2 5 gallon 'starter' batches to propagate enough yeast for your 2 10 gallon batches.

Fermentation is usually completed in 2 weeks, so that's when you would transfer the beer into a secondary (e.g., keg) for lagering, and harvest the yeast. Use an oxygen-free transfer process of course.

Or brew one 5 gallon 'starter' batch and brew the 2 10 gallon batches subsequently, pitching half the yeast of the 10 gallon Helles batch into the 10 gallon Schwarzbier. You may as well brew an Oktoberfest along with that and use the other half of the yeast.
And so on.

Thanks! I just wasn't sure if any of the off flavours from fermenting room temp, may transfer when repitching the yeast cake. I really want to brew/ferment them all together as I have dual 10gal systems and ferm chamber that holds 4 carboys. Get both beers done at the same time!...but might just bite the bullet and spend the $40 on 8 packs of yeast...

Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks! I just wasn't sure if any of the off flavours from fermenting room temp, may transfer when repitching the yeast cake. I really want to brew/ferment them all together as I have dual 10gal systems and ferm chamber that holds 4 carboys. Get both beers done at the same time!...but might just bite the bullet and spend the $40 on 8 packs of yeast...

The beer on top of the propagated yeast (the starter beer) will taste bad oxidized and full of off flavors from high temp, but cold crashing and decanting the clear starter beer off the crashed slurry gets rid of that. That said, many homebrewers pitch the whole starter, yeast and bad starter beer, and from anecdotal evidence and some taste tests, no-one could notice the difference. Now adding 5 liter starter to a 5 gallon batch must do something to that beer, diluting it by 4-6% should be apparent. But even that... nope!

I make 10 gallon batches of lager regularly, and pitch 2 packs 34/70 directly into cooled wort just after oxygenating with tank O2. Always working by the next morning, works out great. Fermentation temps between 54-56F.

He^ only uses 2 packs per 10 gallons. I wonder whether you really need 4 packs? I know it's lager yeast and pitch rates should be double from ales. Oxygenation could make some if not all the difference. Dry yeast tends to have much higher cell count than the manufacturer claims.

 

[xpops]

The beer on top of the propagated yeast (the starter beer) will taste bad oxidized and full of off flavors from high temp, but cold crashing and decanting the clear starter beer off the crashed slurry gets rid of that. That said, many homebrewers pitch the whole starter, yeast and bad starter beer, and from anecdotal evidence and some taste tests, no-one could notice the difference. Now adding 5 liter starter to a 5 gallon batch must do something to that beer, diluting it by 4-6% should be apparent. But even that... nope!

He^ only uses 2 packs per 10 gallons. I wonder whether you really need 4 packs? I know it's lager yeast and pitch rates should be double from ales. Oxygenation could make some if not all the difference. Dry yeast tends to have much higher cell count than the manufacturer claims.

Anecdotally it may not make a diff...but not my practice, lol. I always decant.

And I'm sure only 1pk for 5gal would ferment...for a for a few bucks, I think I'd rather play it safe. Lots of time going into that beer, and I don't want to risk stressing out the yeast to save a few $!