Do you treat water and check pH?

[kh54s10]

I started a thread a while back asking how important people thought adjusting for pH was. The poll gave a pretty even split from important to not so much.

Given that there are some very advanced brewers, middle experienced and beginners, I would assume that the majority of brewers make no adjustments.

I for one have not adjusted. Could my beers be better? Probably, but I am satisfied for the moment in my beers without adjustment.

Wondering how many make adjustments.

Added: If you are using RO or distilled water your vote doesn't really apply since you have to make adjustments with those.

The first two don't apply. We'll see how this goes. But if there are votes by those using RO or distilled the poll is useless....

 

[balrog]

I started adding "Water Crystals" on advice from LHBS when I had "watery" or "thin" english milds/bitters, and it helped immensely. Found I had essentially RO water coming from tap. I have started down the path of trying to repeatedly add more/less this or that and measure pH to determine benefit/detriment. Still analyzing and learning.

 

[McKnuckle]

I always adjust my distilled water. I estimate the pH using software but I never validate it with a meter. I rely on the estimate. Much less work, with all of the results!

 

[kh54s10]

I started adding "Water Crystals" on advice from LHBS when I had "watery" or "thin" english milds/bitters, and it helped immensely. Found I had essentially RO water coming from tap. I have started down the path of trying to repeatedly add more/less this or that and measure pH to determine benefit/detriment. Still analyzing and learning.

What the hell are "Water Crystals"? I will give that doing something to correct a problem is wise. But in the absence of a problem...

I would more inclined to try to correct a problem by taking the route of pH and water corrections than using some magic crystal without knowing the water or what the crystal added or didn't.

I always adjust my distilled water. I estimate the pH using software but I never validate it with a meter. I rely on the estimate. Much less work, with all of the results!

Distilled water use is another story. You need to make mineral additions since the process of distilling removes them. I did that once. The beer was not noticeably better than with my tap water.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I always adjust my distilled water. I estimate the pH using software but I never validate it with a meter. I rely on the estimate. Much less work, with all of the results!

Exactly what I do...

 

[balrog]

No no no! They're magic, I tell ya; magic! It's like beans, but with crystals.

I went on the advice of someone who I ascribed to knowing more than I did at the time. Turns out its just gypsum and Epsom in a bag. The bag clearly states,
Brewers Crystals
1 tsp per gallon increases hardness of water 889 ppm
Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum)
Potassium Chloride
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom)
135 ppm Ca++
388 ppm SO4--
19 ppm MG++
183 ppm K+
185 ppm Cl-

The guy said to add "1/2 oz per 5g batch and see if that helps" which it did. And I *THINK* I calc'd the additions to my almost-RO water to be
86 Ca
248 SO4
12 Mg
118 Cl

On the other hand, my Kolsch & Cream Ale recipes need no such mineral additions.

 

[kh54s10]

No no no! They're magic, I tell ya; magic! It's like beans, but with crystals.

I went on the advice of someone who I ascribed to knowing more than I did at the time. Turns out its just gypsum and Epsom in a bag. The bag clearly states,
Brewers Crystals
1 tsp per gallon increases hardness of water 889 ppm
Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum)
Potassium Chloride
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom)
135 ppm Ca++
388 ppm SO4--
19 ppm MG++
183 ppm K+
185 ppm Cl-

The guy said to add "1/2 oz per 5g batch and see if that helps" which it did. And I *THINK* I calc'd the additions to my almost-RO water to be
86 Ca
248 SO4
12 Mg
118 Cl

On the other hand, my Kolsch & Cream Ale recipes need no such mineral additions.

Sorry, this poll is already useless since you HAVE to make adjustments if you use RO or distilled water.

In your case, without knowing the chemistry of your water, just adding magic crystals it a total shot in the dark. You may not get enough or one chemical and could easily get way too much of another.... Just my 2 cents.

 

[McKnuckle]

I would say that the poll is not useless. Using RO or distilled is intrinsically part of adjusting your water. It means you are not using tap water and hoping for the best. So that's equivalent to "yes, I always adjust my water."

 

[kh54s10]

I would say that the poll is not useless. Using RO or distilled is intrinsically part of adjusting your water. It means you are not using tap water and hoping for the best. So that's equivalent to "yes, I always adjust my water."

Which nullifies the intent of the poll in what I was looking for. I was looking to see who uses tap water and doesn't find the need for adjusting.

I guess I could look through each reply to see if they used RO or distilled.......

I have over 85 all grain brews done with tap water and no adjustments, made in 2 states and I would rate 50% of those better than the average commercial craft beer. My friends seem to agree since they tell me that my beers are very good, then ask when they can get some more.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yes. I adjust my water. Salts to bring up calcium. Either thats gypsum or calcium chloride depends on the beer. Sometimes I balance them and that's it. Sometimes I increase one or the other. Most beers I add lactic acid. On rare occasions where I need to raise instead of lower the pH I add baking soda. On equally rare occasions I add canning salt (a few beers where I like elevated sodium).

Sometimes I add salts to the kettle in lieu of sparge water or alkalinity to the mash.

pH is always directly measured with a properly cared for and calibrated meter, and if necessary adjustments made to subsequent brews.

I presume there's a poll I can't see on the app.

 

[McKnuckle]

If you saw my Ward Labs report you'd switch to tabula rasa water too.

Seriously, those who can brew with their tap water are simply fortunate. It does not mean that those who adjust are doing something unnecessary. That's like telling a badly near-sighted person not to wear glasses because you have 20:20 vision.

There is nothing consistent about tap water across the country or even in a region. Heck, even in a single small town it's true. My town has city water in a limited section, but most homeowners have well water like I do.

The alkalinity is sky high, and the hardness eats copper pipes for breakfast. I've had the entire pre-softener (yeah, that too) plumbing in my house replaced with plastic. It is entirely unsuitable for brewing beer under an SRM of 40, and so far off base for pale beers that it was pointless for me to even try diluting it. So I start from a clean slate - diluted 100%!

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Yes and no. I use tap water, I am lucky to have good tap water. I do add a little gypsum sometimes if it is going to be a hop-forward beer and almost always add 5-10ml of Lactic Acid however this isn't based on literally anything empirical except I know my water has some hardness, alkalinity, whatever. I only use my pH meter to see how beers that are souring are coming along.

Only salts I add are for when I make a Gose.

 

[Nagorg]

Added: If you are using RO or distilled water your vote doesn't really apply since you have to make adjustments with those

Darn... I do blend DI with tap because of my local softened water source and its high sodium. So yeah, I make adjustments.

 

[Big Monk]

I treat water and check pH. Sometimes I experiment with my tap water untreated save for some dilution. Sometimes it’s distilled.

However, sometimes I brew a recipe I know without any regard to actually measuring pH. We’d like to develop a solid enough estimation program to render meters obsolete for the average brewer but we aren’t there yet.

 

[balrog]

I use my tap water.
In trying to be funny perhaps I've misrepresented things.
My Ward Labs report shows very soft water. From my tap. Which I use.
I used the brewing salts, on advice of LHBS, which were packaged as "Water Crystals", and when I found out they were just Epsom/Gypsum/KCl, I started adjusting with specific salts, as well as getting a pH meter.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I didn't answer the poll because my answer doesn't really fit in. I have good tap water in Charlotte and have not made adjustments yet, but I do plan on doing it in the future. From what I've seen, I should be adding a little calcium to the water - but otherwise, it's very good for brewing. I just need to research it a little more before I start making changes.

 

[BigJoeBrew]

I might be the person you are looking for. I don't do anything, and don't really plan to. I have never added salts or ever taken a pH reading (would need a meter for that). I'm very satisfied with the beers I make. They could probably be improved, but that is an effort I'm not willing to make at this point.

 

[mongoose33]

Which nullifies the intent of the poll in what I was looking for. I was looking to see who uses tap water and doesn't find the need for adjusting.

Then the poll needs to be done with that question, not the one you asked, which was "Do you make water or pH adjustments?"

I do. The question says nothing about using RO or Tap water. In fact, my typical water has 1 gallon of tap water and the balance RO water. I don't know where that would fit.

 

[day_trippr]

I use 100% RO and I make water and pH adjustments. Wrt pH mostly to assure good mash chemistry, but if it needs it adjusting the boil pH as well. Wrt "water adjustments", I do that as well, both to assure a good mash chemistry but also adjustments per style.

So, yes, the poll is a bit too simplistic...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Which nullifies the intent of the poll in what I was looking for. I was looking to see who uses tap water and doesn't find the need for adjusting.

The whole point of me using RO water is so that I can control water adjustments.

There's no one forcing RO on me. If I didn't give a crap I would use tap water and not adjust it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

So rather than an actual question you're just looking for validation?

 

[day_trippr]

Which nullifies the intent of the poll in what I was looking for. I was looking to see who uses tap water and doesn't find the need for adjusting.[...]

I apologize for missing this point earlier. I do think a more specific question would have returned more on-point responses.
Might even want to give it another try in a new thread!

Cheers!

 

[kh54s10]

Yes, I didn't get my question/poll set up to answer what I was trying to find out. My thought is that there are a lot of you that are more advanced and do water adjustments. Those are probably you who are more active on these forums. But I would suspect the numbers of those including beginners and those who have not advanced so far are greater than those who do. And I wonder if more municipal water supplies are good than is often stated. I am also not trying to say that making water additions might would not improve peoples beers. Just wondering how many are satisfied enough that they don't make water adjustments.

 

[Rodent]

I do make adjustments after having not for my first ~2 years of brewing. I use well water, have lab reports to know an average mineral content, measure pH, etc ... but I didn't used to in the beginning.

Why did I start, you ask? Good question!

I started because I couldn't get the hops in my Pale Ales and IPAs to have the brilliant and crisp flavors in the beers I was brewing all-grain clones of. My beer before adjustments was always dull, and lacking in the hop brilliance found locally.

And so I gave the salt adjustments a try. The first attempt was cautious, but had significantly noticeable results that others made mention of without me making it known I had done this added step. After multiple brew days, I've come to notice a water profile I prefer for my west coast style IPAs, a different profile for my juicy/fruity low bitterness IPAs, and a different one that's more suited to the Imperial Stouts I also enjoy


Treating water was a game changer for my home brewing, and it costs so little to do - why would anybody NOT treat their water and create significantly better beers for a few extra nickels per 5 gallon batch?

 

[RPh_Guy]

My thought is that there are a lot of you that are more advanced and do water adjustments. Those are probably you who are more active on these forums. But I would suspect the numbers of those including beginners and those who have not advanced so far are greater than those who do.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/11/22/2018-general-homebrewer-survey-results/

Hope this helps.

Survey results are obviously biased toward the practices of people who the survey reaches and who takes the time to respond.

 

[RPh_Guy]

And I wonder if more municipal water supplies are good than is often stated.

Forgot to mention... There's no such thing add as a "good" water supply that can be used for every style. Roasty beers like stouts require very different water than pale beers like a kolsch.

Also, sparging with hot unadjusted tap water can be tricky and may lead to really horrible off-flavors. I know from experience.

 

[kh54s10]

Forgot to mention... There's no such thing add as a "good" water supply that can be used for every style. Roasty beers like stouts require very different water than pale beers like a kolsch.

Also, sparging with hot unadjusted tap water can be tricky and may lead to really horrible off-flavors. I know from experience.

I may just be lucky, but in 2 states now I have not had the problem that my water could not make a good pale beer AND a roasty beer. I have also ONLY sparged with unadjusted tap water.... I am not saying that they couldn't be made better, just that they have been very good on both ends of the spectrum with no adjustments.

I have never gotten a horrible off flavor in any beer that was not an extreme experiment. And one of the two that were extreme experiments, I never tasted. It stayed opaque pea green soup for about 3 months before I dumped it. I couldn't get past the look to venture a taste.....

I am not advising that people don't need, or shouldn't look at water treatment either, just that it has not been high on the list of things for me to tweak yet.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you're happy with the beer, don't let any of us tell you to change.

 

[myndflyte]

I use distilled water so I adjust my water profile based on the style of beer that I'm making. I aim to hit a specific pH with the profile. That being said, once it's mashing, I don't adjust the pH. I figure by the time I'm checking it 30 min in, any adjusting I do isn't really going to change anything at that point. I just take notes on what my target was, where I actually was and adjust for it next time I make a batch.

 

[mabrungard]

Sorry, this poll is already useless since you HAVE to make adjustments if you use RO or distilled water.

In your case, without knowing the chemistry of your water, just adding magic crystals it a total shot in the dark. You may not get enough or one chemical and could easily get way too much of another.... Just my 2 cents.

There is no HAVE TO. Beer can be brewed with pure water and it will do fine. All the nutrients needed for yeast metabolism are in the malt.

My admission isn’t to say that you won’t WANT TO adjust your water. I’ve tasted thousands of beers and assure you that brewing with pure water produces a bland result.

Simple adjustments can make profound results.

 

[Tbagger]

I make adjustments to my tap water. I got a report from ward labs and it was super soft so I use brunwater to find the adjustments for the profile I am shooting for. I haven't been checking the PH, I just trust the calculations. I will probably get a PH meter eventually but for now I'm happy with my system.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'm guessing this thread is an offshoot to a discussion the OP and I had in another thread. I think the poll results posted above by RPh_Guy probably answers the OPs question. I'm not sure the brewing science forum is the best place to poll because it's mostly visited by people who are more advanced in their brewing efforts. You're probably missing most of the people who you'd like to hear from.

I brew with RO water, I use salts to adjust my profile to get the result I want in each beer...emphasize hops in an IPA, make big stouts smoother and less harsh, etc. I use Bru'n Water to calculate the additions, including acidulated malt or acid for pH in lighter beers and I have a pH meter to verify the calculations. For the most part, Bru'n Water has been extremely close.

Some styles almost mandate it. I can't fathom brewing a kettle sour and not measuring pH and, at a bare minimum, pre-acidifying the wort.

In general, I just don't see the point in putting the work into brewing a batch of beer and not spending an extra 10 minutes and 50 cents or whatever to push it over the top, but the beauty of home brewing is that everyone can do what they want and put in the level of effort that yields the results their happy with.

I also realize I'm obsessive. I won a national championship in sailing because I obsess over every detail and leave no stone unturned in my pursuit of the best result. I also spend a lot of time studying and learning about my hobbies. When I first started brewing, I was reading and studying about brewing for 20-30 hours a week. It consumed a huge part of my free time for over a year. I still spend 5-10 hours a week reading and learning about the process. It's just my nature to put maximum effort into my endeavors (with shopping being an exception...I'm a " it's good enough" level of shopper).

 

[kh54s10]

Hwk-I-St8, yes it is.
I have conceded that my poll was poorly worded. I guess I put it in the wrong forum also. I do think that to make your good beers the best that they can be water corrections and pH are important. I however wonder when the first thing that is mentioned in a ton of posts is that you need to amend your water. This, before discussing any other problem that might have been the cause. I was also wondering how many brewers don't amend their water and how many municipalities have water suitable for brewing. From a lot of you it would seem that it is impossible to brew good beer with tap water and no amendments.

I guess I am reacting to my perception that a vehemence seems to come across - that in order to brew good beer you must amend your water.

From above I guess I did get what I was looking for. Water: Tap water filtered or unfiltered = 64% Treatment I include; none at 30%, standard amount at 8% since they are not really analyzing anything for a total 38%

It seems to me that more people, than suggested in posts here, are just using tap water rather than other options. And that a significant amount of home brewers do not amend their water. Though, the percentage is lower than I expected. There are also a number that make a static amendment and that is pretty much the same as no amending.

 

[Big Monk]

I do think that to make your good beers the best the concepts of water corrections and pH are important.

(Excuse my edits to your text above. I think it makes the statement clearer)

I think that, more important than the actual water itself and how you amend it, is that you are aware of how those things impact your beer.

I was also wondering how many brewers don't amend their water and how many municipalities have water suitable for brewing. From a lot of you it would seem that it is impossible to brew good beer with tap water and no amendments.

In the last few weeks I have been entertaining using my tap water for brewing:

Ca = 35.90
Mg = 9.33
Na = 21.14
SO4 = 22.87
Cl = 30.64
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 104.40

After eliminating the Alkalinity and with a modest 8% boil-off, my finished profile looks like this:

Ca = 38.16
Mg = 9.92
Na = 22.47
SO4 = 24.31
Cl = 32.57

No amendments other than accounting for boil-off.

I do think there is a natural bias, especially in advanced brewers to just use RO because it gives more control. I historically use distilled water but after reviewing my tap water, i'd say that simply carbon filtering it and using as is is more than sufficient.

 

[fendersrule]

I brew with tap water...no RO or anything. I've always get "kudos" whenever I hand out my beers, even to people that have been brewing for many years. I haven't had one person mention anything wrong with them, although I really welcome more feedback than I've been given.

My water is a little hard. It tastes good. My kettles look as clear as the clearest ocean after I put tap water in them. My beers taste really good...my IPA tastes like IPAs, my Pale Ales tastes like pale ales, and my porter tasted like a porter.

I just switched to BIAB and with a fine crush, I get 70% efficiency. That's good efficiency. I'm sure I can get another 10% if I look into my water next, but 70% is fine and dandy.

With all that said, I think the basic saying of "if it tastes good, you can brew with it" is true.

With that also said, once you upgrade and continue to improve your equipment/process, water is the next ting I'd like to improve upon. It's pretty expensive, though....you need a $100 Ph meter, you need $200 to draw a sample and send it in, and then you need to spend what appears to be a serious amount of hours learning the science. I'll go there eventually, but point being, my beers with tap water tastes good. I entered two of them in the local competition actually, so we'll see how they do!

 

[Yooper]

Sorry, this poll is already useless since you HAVE to make adjustments if you use RO or distilled water.

Says who? You don't HAVE to do anything, just as you don't have to do anything with tap water, unless you want to. There isn't any blanket rule that says you don't have to mess with your tap water, but you do with RO water. In fact, the reverse is true.

Plain RO water will make pretty good beer in almost all cases, while my tap water will not.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I bought a pH meter a while back. I haven't tried using it yet for fear I will screw up the calibration, storage, or measurement and end up making bad acid additions to my mash. Its like Dumbo's feather in reverse; if I don't use it I won't need to. Also, I feel it has already improved my beer through placebo effect and sometimes I just wave it at my kettle like a wand.

Slightly further OT, one of my roommates in college used to fish his toast out of the toaster with a fork, blissfully unaware of the hazard posed by the glowing nichrome. I informed him of the danger, which he refused to believe until a few days later...ZZAPP! Thoroughly convinced that ignorance of such things was some sort of force field against danger, he became royally pissed at me for popping the bubble. IIRC he was Scottish and also applied whisky topically for his dandruff.

In summary: only do the things you feel you need to do, or that make you feel like you've done your best, and nothing more.

 

[kh54s10]

Says who? You don't HAVE to do anything, just as you don't have to do anything with tap water, unless you want to. There isn't any blanket rule that says you don't have to mess with your tap water, but you do with RO water. In fact, the reverse is true.

Plain RO water will make pretty good beer in almost all cases, while my tap water will not.

Still learning, I assumed that since RO strips most of the minerals, that you really did need to make additions.. And that tap water might not depending on what is in it.

But the Poll still doesn't seem to be reality. 73% at this time insist you HAVE to make water corrections.

 

[Rodent]

unless somebody has found a way to stuff the ballot box, that response is reality based on the options you have given us to choose from.


FWIW I would have voted for "YES, always, because personal experience has proven it makes for better beers all other things being equal; adjustments are not required to make good drinkable beer" since adjusting water is not REQUIRED to (i.e. have to) make beer

 

[kh54s10]

unless somebody has found a way to stuff the ballot box, that response is reality based on the options you have given us to choose from.


FWIW I would have voted for "YES, always, because personal experience has proven it makes for better beers all other things being equal; adjustments are not required to make good drinkable beer" since adjusting water is not REQUIRED to (i.e. have to) make beer

You are inserting the notion of making the beer better. That was not in the hypothesis. It was about whether you have to make adjustments.