Do I just not "get" diacetyl?

[Calypso]

I'm sitting drinking a Pilsner Urquell, often cited as a good example of diacetyl, and I'm not getting it. I'm not getting the slickness or the instant buttered popcorn smell/taste. I know some people can't taste it, but as I'm working on my BJCP certification, I'd be bummed if I can't detect diacetyl!

 

[CadillacAndy]

Typically if you can't taste it you can still detect it with the slick palate sensation. Not all PU has diacetyl. I've had some that has been so bad I couldn't drink it and some be some of the best beer I've ever had. If it tastes good, enjoy it.

It can also be perceived as a caramel/butterscotch kind of thing and not just buttered popcorn too.

To find out if you can't detect it, try to find a group and get the Siebel off flavor kit or put your own together. I'm on my phone or I'd post links to some resources.

Enjoy the Pilsner!

 

[Calypso]

To find out if you can't detect it, try to find a group and get the Siebel off flavor kit or put your own together. I'm on my phone or I'd post links to some resources.

I'd love to, but without the BJCP subsidy they cost $250 dollars, more than I can reasonably drop. Even if my entire little beer club chipped in, that's still $50 per person. I've done a number of off-flavors cheaply (using things like sherry and canned corn), but diacetyl requires imitation butter, but they've stopped using diacetyl in the ones you can buy in the store because of the negative backlash against it.

Maybe I just got a "good one" eh? Hopefully in the course of my judging career I'll find a beer where another judge says "ye gods, the diacetyl!" and I can lay it to rest one way or another!

 

[oldschool]

Some people's detectable threshold is very high- maybe you should be happy?

 

[Natdavis777]

If you ever make your way south to Indy, pick up some Flat 12 Walkabout Pale Ale... The first time I had this at a bar, a friend and I both thought they had a bad keg or dirty lines bc it was over the top with diacetyl... Had it again at another bar and in the bottle and those too were full of butterscotch. Its the beer I tell people to try if they want to know what diacetyl tastes like...

 

[Teromous]

Do you have access to Fuller's ESB?

 

[Calypso]

Do you have access to Fuller's ESB?

Yes sir, I do! I shall try it on the morrow.

Incidentally, I just realized your avatar is a gnome, and not a rooster as I thought it was for days but never *really* looked.

 

[poponon]

common man that's the magical houblon chouffe gnome!

 

[Homercidal]

I don't think I can taste it easily. Even Butter Flavored stuff is mostly just kind of salty to me. The butter flavor is subtle. I do seem to be able to pick out green apple flavors, so I got that going for me.

I know our club is going to pitch in and buy a tasting kit some time in the future, but exactly when I just don't know. I'm curious to see what I can pick out and what I can't at that time. I've done a sensory evaluation at a homebrewing seminar in the past, and had a hard time most of the off flavors. I'm hoping I've learned a bit more since then.

 

[paulster2626]

Try just getting a big mouthful of head and sloshing it around a bit in your mouth. That sounds terrible, actually.

But yeah - I had a lager that tasted fine, but if I ever got a first blast of just head it honestly tasted like microwave popcorn. It's almost like the diacetyl shows up in the head but the acutal beer has enough flavour to overpower it so I can't taste it.

 

[machfive55]

There are plenty of ways to do beer doctoring without spending the big bucks to buy the kits. Just google and you will find a bunch of ways to do them cheap. You can purchase butter flavoring and also green apple flavoring cheaply.

 

[Calypso]

There are plenty of ways to do beer doctoring without spending the big bucks to buy the kits. Just google and you will find a bunch of ways to do them cheap. You can purchase butter flavoring and also green apple flavoring cheaply.

I know, the BJCP site even has recommended home-doctoring methods. I've done it for fusels, DMS, oxidation (paper), oxidation (sherry), skunking, phenolic, and esters. But I couldn't find the proper stuff (butter extract) for diacetyl. I even looked on Amazon and couldn't find the right stuff. If anyone can point me toward it, I'd be appreciative.

 

[Wynne-R]

Show up to a competition and volunteer. In a flight of lagers, you will have a few beers with significant diacetyl levels. One will be ‘knock it out of the park OMG I can’t taste the beer’ and the others will be between that and zero.

The conventional wisdom is that either you get it or you don’t. Actually it’s more of a range. I think it’s fairly unusual to be able to feel the slickness before you get the unpleasant fake butter taste.

That’s the limitation of the doctored beer kits; they beat you over the head with it. As a judge you need to know what your sensitivity is. Diacetyl gets much stronger as the beer warms up.

On the TV news I saw a police officer talking about a new K-9 unit. She said “ We smell pizza. He smells yeast and dough and cheese and tomato.” Your perception may be better than you think, you just need to learn to isolate and identify flavors.

 

[machfive55]

This is what I used:

http://www.wilton.com/store/site/product.cfm?id=3E30D7E5-475A-BAC0-55409D432277491E

Some craft stores sell it. One word of caution it can stick with the glass even after you wash it.

 

[ksavage15]

Buy yourself some Old Speckled Hen, def, got that taste to it, doubt you'd miss it
Keith


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[Calypso]

Well, I bought a 1 oz. container of McCormick Imitation Butter, which includes diacetyl. I smelled straight from the bottle and got a faint hint of butter cream frosting and a hint of movie theater popcorn, but it definitely didn't smack me in the face. I added it to a pilsner 3 drops at a time, up to 12 drops, and never was able to detect a change in the aroma or flavor. Hell, I tasted a drop of the imitation butter directly and it was sweet and bitter, but not oily or buttery (maybe that was because it is in a propylene glycol solution).

 

[riderkb]

I notice it most in pediococcus infected beers. It is part of the "gusher" phenomenon. You can get a ped culture and make a batch of nasty butter bomb beer. That would be hardcore.



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[progmac]

I had a six pack of newcastle's blonde. Tons of diacetyl. It might have been a bad batch, or maybe that is the flavor profile.

I think in pilsner urquell the diacetyl is very very mild.

 

[TobyG]

One thing that I find is that many often mistake kettle caramelization for diacetyl which is why I look for mouthfeel to confirm in beer styles where a caramel or kettle caramelization flavor is normal. Oily, soapy, or slick in the mouthfeel gives it away for me. Diacetyl is one of those monsters under the bed for some people I think.

 

[Siberian]

Why don't you just brew a 1 gallon batch of a beer with pilsner malt as it's base with the cover on all the time and doing everything the wrong way to produce diacetyl? Read up on all the things to do to avoid having that flavor and go out of your way to produce it.

1 Gallon batch shouldn't cost that much to brew up, you probably wouldn't even have to carbonate it to be able to get that diacetyl taste.

 

[TobyG]

Why don't you just brew a 1 gallon batch of a beer with pilsner malt as it's base with the cover on all the time and doing everything the wrong way to produce diacetyl? Read up on all the things to do to avoid having that flavor and go out of your way to produce it.

1 Gallon batch shouldn't cost that much to brew up, you probably wouldn't even have to carbonate it to be able to get that diacetyl taste.

Diacetyl and DMS are two completely different things. You've described a way to accentuate DMS and not diacetyl.

 

[ajdelange]

The diacetyl level in PU is just at or above threshold so you won't taste it as diacetyl (which is a good thing!) but you will notice its synergism with the malt as an enhanced caramel/nutty flavor.

 

[TobyG]

Diacetyl and DMS are two completely different things. You've described a way to accentuate DMS and not diacetyl.

And incidentally, I wonder if the Pilsner Urquell reference wasn't intended to be DMS (DiMethyl Sulfide) instead of diacetyl also. Pilsner malt is higher in the precursor of DMS: SMM (S-Methyl Methionine), so a fair amount of pilsners will have a slightly corny/sulfury character to them just as a product of ingredients and process, if not handled properly.

 

[BigTuna]

I notice significant levels of diacetyl in Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale. This is actually the first beer I have noticed the taste in. I have drank other beers that were said to have diacetyl but I could not taste it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Why don't you just brew a 1 gallon batch of a beer with pilsner malt as it's base with the cover on all the time and doing everything the wrong way to produce diacetyl? Read up on all the things to do to avoid having that flavor and go out of your way to produce it.

1 Gallon batch shouldn't cost that much to brew up, you probably wouldn't even have to carbonate it to be able to get that diacetyl taste.

Keeping the cover on will not create diacetyl though, it creates DMS precursors. Don't confuse the target molecule, or the OP.

But I just love the idea of creating off-flavored beer on purpose. It's true genius! Beats the $250 Siebel taster. You're on to something here!

 

[Calypso]

Haha, I actually had that very idea yesterday: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-can-i-assure-high-levels-diacetyl-478443/. I think creating split batches, one with an off-flavor is a great way to learn what not to do and to learn how detect off-flavors!

And don't worry, no confusion, I know a covered boil causes higher levels of DMS, not diacetyl.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm there with you, in that I have a very hard time tasting or smelling diacetyl. I can get the slick mouthfeel pretty easily, but not the flavor or aroma. A dozen or so folks from one of my homebrew clubs split an off-flavor kit, and even at that level, I still couldn't really taste it, but I could certainly identify the mouthfeel.

Everyone's got different sensitivities. I have a hard time with both diacetyl and acetaldehyde. However, I can pick up isoamyl acetate like nobodies business.

 

[QuercusMax]

If you want huge diacetyl, pitch warm with S-23 and then chill down to 50. Tasted like grape soda mixed with buttered popcorn. Disgusting. Needless to say I switched to a better yeast shortly after that.

I've made 2 batches of Helles with WLP860, which produces significant amounts of diacetyl for me (even pitching cold, with lots of yeast, followed by D-rest). It mostly comes in the nose, but after a month of lagering it goes away almost completely.

I've also gotten significant diacetyl in a gravity sample using US-05 taken after 3 days of fermentation.

Some people definitely confuse diacetyl with caramel/toffee flavors - I got dinged in competition on an ESB where I used 150L british crystal malt, which gives a strong toffeeish flavor. There was no diacetyl in that beer, the judges were clearly confused.

 

[TobyG]

Some people definitely confuse diacetyl with caramel/toffee flavors - I got dinged in competition on an ESB where I used 150L british crystal malt, which gives a strong toffeeish flavor. There was no diacetyl in that beer, the judges were clearly confused.

Speaking as someone who's a big fan and brewer of ESBs, Scots, and Scotch Ales, this is a pet peeve of mine. Butterscotch or caramel is not de facto diacetyl. It even says it in the style guidelines that kettle caramelization can be confused for diacetyl. On the bright side, if you have a category 9 beer in NHC second round, you'll have a judge with 19 years experience brewing (I've made an ESB, 80 shilling Scots, and strong Scotch at least twice a year over the course of that time) and enjoying the style judging your beer.

 

[ajdelange]

There was no diacetyl in that beer, the judges were clearly confused.

That would be unusual. Also assume the measurement was done with GC as the dimethylglyoxime method isn't really sensitive enough for a solid reading even a bit above threshold.

 

[fizgig]

Any of Sam Smith's beers have tons of diacetyl, try those, the Yorkshire square method of brewing and the yeast cause it.
http://byo.com/stories/item/2356-diacetyl-techniques

This beer (Wells Sticky Toffee Pudding Ale) has the most diacetyl I've ever tasted: http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/664/106539/

 

[QuercusMax]

That would be unusual. Also assume the measurement was done with GC as the dimethylglyoxime method isn't really sensitive enough for a solid reading even a bit above threshold.

Did I just get trolled by ajdelange? I've never heard of BJCP judges busting out a gas chromatograph at the judging table, but I suppose it's not *completely* impossible.

Perhaps I should say that to my palate, there was no detectable diacetyl, and what they thought was diacetyl was actually from the crystal malt. (I'm sure all beer contains diacetyl in some amounts, and even those those where it is below the taste threshold it still exists to some degree.)

 

[ajdelange]

I was tweaking your nose for making the assertion that there was no diacetyl when, as you point out, the means for knowing that are not available. Pardon my cranky sarcasm. It's just part of my personality.

 

[suregork]

Here is something you can try if you want to produce a beer sample that almost certainly has diacetyl concentrations above the typical flavour thresholds. During fermentation, wort has a very low concentration of free diacetyl, which means you typically don't detect it in fermenting wort. However, the wort will at this point (especially early into fermentation) contain a large concentration of alpha-acetolactate (which will eventually decarboxylate into diacetyl). I've e.g. measured peak 'total diacetyl' concentrations of 300-1500 µg/L in recent years depending on yeast strain and fermentation conditions (while the threshold is in the 20-100 µg/L range). By heating the beer, we can increase the rate of the decarboxylation reaction, so that the alpha-acetolactate is converted into diacetyl in minutes instead of days. So:

- Take a small sample from your fermenting beer early during fermentation (2-3 days after pitching).
- Place the sample in a closeable container (e.g. beer bottle that you cap, soda bottle, etc.). You don't want the volatile diacetyl to escape once it is formed. Keep in mind that the sample will be heated, so be careful with anything that can be damaged by pressure.
- Heat the sample to 60 degrees C (140F) in a water bath (e.g. on the stove) for an hour.
- At this point your beer sample should contain a high concentration of diacetyl, and you will hopefully be able to detect it.

I haven't tried this myself at home, but similar protocols (e.g. in EBC-Analytica, ASBC MOA ..) are used during 'total diacetyl' analysis. I'm not sure how any suspended yeast will be affected by the heating though (probably won't have an effect), as in the lab we centrifuge and filter our samples prior to analysis.

Edit: Oh, and when deciding on when to take the sample, typically the higher your fermentation temperature, the earlier the 'total diacetyl' peak will occur.

 

[Calypso]

Awesome advice, thanks. Next beer that goes in the fermenter I'll give this a try.

 

[BigTuna]

Great advice suregork. It sounds like you know fermentation incredibly well. I think I'm going to do this on my next beer just to test my diacetyl sensitivity.


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