Do I include flaked corn & rice when using acidulated malt?

[Doctor_M]

Just like the title states I'll be brewing a cream ale next Friday and after multiple Google searches I still don't know the answer, per the brewing water chemistry primer I plan on using 3% acidulated malt per grain bill.... do I add the pounds of rice and corn into that as well?

 

[sudbuster]

Just like the title states I'll be brewing a cream ale next Friday and after multiple Google searches I still don't know the answer, per the brewing water chemistry primer I plan on using 3% acidulated malt per grain bill.... do I add the pounds of rice and corn into that as well?

Fellow brewer,
You have me, and others i"m sure, at a loss here. We don't know what your current brewing water analysis is, much less it's pH. It's very hard to try to help without knowing where to start. There are some very "save" water people on this board, but please try to be a bit more informative.

 

[Doctor_M]

Fellow brewer,
You have me, and others i"m sure, at a loss here. We don't know what your current brewing water analysis is, much less it's pH. It's very hard to try to help without knowing where to start. There are some very "save" water people on this board, but please try to be a bit more informative.

I was planning on using 100% ro water and building from the ground up, I figured for now I would just use the "guideline" in the brewing water chemistry primer to get me roughly where I need to be, I am just unsure if flaked corn and rice get added into the total grist when figuring out how much 3% actually is weight wise. Eventually I will start using the online calculators like brun water but I don't have a laptop so the spread sheets don't work for me.

This is what I'll be brewing https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/

 

[sweetcell]

doctor: without any additional information, it sounds like you're asking about apples and oranges. your use of acidulated should have no bearing on rice and corn.

acidulated malt is used to lower pH (a chemistry adjustment). rice and corn are used as a source of relatively flavorless fermentables (recipe adjustment). one shouldn't affect the other.

if you're asking if you should add them all together to your mash, at the same time - the answer is yes. grind 'em all up and throw 'em in the mash tun.

are you using any minerals, like gypsum, calcium carbonate, epsom salt, etc? RO water is devoid of the minerals that yeast need.

 

[Doctor_M]

doctor: without any additional information, it sounds like you're asking about apples and oranges. your use of acidulated should have no bearing on rice and corn.

acidulated malt is used to lower pH (a chemistry adjustment). rice and corn are used as a source of relatively flavorless fermentables (recipe adjustment). one shouldn't affect the other.

if you're asking if you should add them all together to your mash, at the same time - the answer is yes. grind 'em all up and throw 'em in the mash tun.

are you using any minerals, like gypsum, calcium carbonate, epsom salt, etc? RO water is devoid of the minerals that yeast need.

So rice and corn have zero effect on ph?

From the water chemistry primer:For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

 

[GotPushrods]

Assuming you are brewing a light, mostly base-malt beer then yes. You will still need some sort of acid. Rice and corn behave much like base malt and will not lower mash pH like darker kilned malts.

 

[GotPushrods]

So rice and corn have zero effect on ph?

It still has an effect. Like base malt, it is alkaline with respect to desired mash pH. Even when starting with 0 alkalinity water you need acid.

 

[Doctor_M]

It still has an effect. Like base malt, it is alkaline with respect to desired mash pH. Even when starting with 0 alkalinity water you need acid.

I figured it had to have some kind of effect, I guess I'll add them up in the total grist weight when figuring out how much to add.

Thanks for all the responses guys I've read and read some more on this water chemistry stuff and have started taking ph readings during the mash but still have a lot to learn. I'm rereading the primer right now as each time I read it I retain a little more knowledge.

 

[helibrewer]

It sounds like you are asking whether to include the adjuncts when calculating the total grain bill in order to derive your 3% figure. The answer is yes, the adjuncts are part of the fermentable grain bill. So if you total grain bill with adjuncts is 10 lbs, your acid malt component would be 10 x .03 or .3 pounds. I use .25 lbs of acid malt for all my light colored beers. I start with RO and build a very soft water profile.

 

[zwiller]

I think we're in uncharted territory at the moment and there is no published research yet... I cannot speak as to corn or rice but flaked barley makes a LARGE impact on mash pH. This has been confirmed by other brewers. I actually think using acid malt for flaked adjuncts is quite an ingenious strategy and might be passable workaround but I don't think adjuncts will impact pH as much as acid malt. Of course, it is likely that each adjunct will impact pH differently, and then you got guys like me asking for info on oatmeal and spelt...